Divine Liturgy and Reform

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NicPais83

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Does anyone know if there has ever been any desire by the Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) to reform the Divine Liturgies, akin to how the Roman Mass was reformed? I don’t mean de-latinization. I read that the Russian Orthodox reformed their version of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom to reflect the Greek version sometime in like the 1800’s, but I’m curious if there has been anything else like this, such as simplification of the rubrics, prayers, etc. Thanks and God bless! 🙂
 
Ugh, you just did not ask this question. The Byzantine Catholic Church in America (Ruthenians) are reforming (have reformed?) their Liturgy. There have been not a few people who have converted to Orthodoxy over this. You have opened a big can of worms.😦
 
Volodymyr_988 said:
Ugh, you just did not ask this question. The Byzantine Catholic Church in America (Ruthenians) are reforming (have reformed?) their Liturgy. There have been not a few people who have converted to Orthodoxy over this. You have opened a big can of worms.😦
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I’m sorry! I honestly did not mean to open up a can of worms or cause any hard feelings! I was just curious about it. 😦
 
Was it actually a reform or was it simply a change in the form of chant and a retranslation? Did they actually make changes to the prayers?
 
The music for the English form of the Divine Liturgy was re-written and the English was “retranslated” so that it is no longer gender specific.

To say it has not been a success is an understatement.

There have been entire families that have left for Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and I know at least one that has become Protestant…

We have wasted over $1 million dollars on a book that NO BODY wants use…

We have over 150 priests who have signed a petition to bring back the old music…

We have entire congregations who just sit and listen to a dialog between the priest and the cantor when the DL is in English yet they blow the roof off the church when the DL is in OCS…

To top it off, the man who re-wrote the new DL music has been removed from his position as instructor at our Seminary for reasons that decorum does not permit to mention here…

That’s enough for anyone at this point in time…
 
Patchunky said:
…

We have over 150 priests who have signed a petition to bring back the old music…

.
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By “old music” are you referring to the recent music introduced in the 1960’s or the old music as found in the 1906 Prostopinije? Interestingly, the music now in use more faithfully follows the considerably older 1906 melodies! If only the music had been corrected without tinkering with the translation, I think the changes would have been received much better. Still, there are those who abhor change even when what they want to return to was only an earlier change, ie the 1964-1970 music commission settings.
To top it off, the man who re-wrote the new DL music has been removed from his position as instructor at our Seminary for reasons that decorum does not permit to mention here…
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:rolleyes:

Tittillating tidbits without any proof only to add shock value rather than using proper decorum and not opening that can of worms by making such remarks either! :tsktsk:
 
SVP said:
Tittillating tidbits without any proof only to add shock value rather than using proper decorum and not opening that can of worms by making such remarks either! :tsktsk:
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Not my fault you’re not in the loop…

oh well…

As for the music, the old music is what is sung in my village in Slovakia and I had no problems when I’ve cantored there…
 
Volodymyr_988 said:
Ugh, you just did not ask this question. The Byzantine Catholic Church in America (Ruthenians) are reforming (have reformed?) their Liturgy. There have been not a few people who have converted to Orthodoxy over this. You have opened a big can of worms.😦
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(preparing to get jumped on…)

The RDL is HARDLY akin to a novus ordo style revision, some translations have been altered, some aspects of the DL were changed back to different styles from different periods. The big “Inclusive Language broo-ha-ha” is “For us and for our salvation” (real feministic there, eh? Yea, I don’t see it either)…

I know column inches and tears have been shed by the mile and bucket on this one… But I have been praying it for 6+ months now, it is still the DL, it is still prayer… We had folks come down for it who live where there is no Ruthenian parish now and they were 100% as far as being able to follow it though they had never seen this book before - none of them used it.
 
Patchunky said:
Not my fault you’re not in the loop…

oh well…

As for the music, the old music is what is sung in my village in Slovakia and I had no problems when I’ve cantored there…
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So…it’s my fault I’m not in the secret loop? :confused:

Actually there are a great many of us here on CAF who are not in the “loop” with regards to such shaded intimations. Yes, “oh well” is quite right since you are obviously NOT going to state what you know and think everyone else knows by your coy statement.

Congratulations on cantoring in Slovakia. Not all of us have the financial wherewithal to afford such trips to our ancestral homelands.
 
I worshiped in a Ukrainian and a Ruthenian parish. The Ukrainian DL was half in Ukrainian and half in English and I was new. When I moved and went to the Ruthenian, we used the new book and I didn’t know the difference as I was still new. I had to ask about 5 months later which version we were using.

The Liturgy is still beautiful to this wannabe.:cool:
 
NicPais83 said:
I’m sorry! I honestly did not mean to open up a can of worms or cause any hard feelings! I was just curious about it. 😦
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Somewhere along the line my reply to you was lost. 😦

I wanted to let you know that I don’t have any hard feelings as I’m not an Eastern Catholic.

It is actually a good question. But there are hard feelings in the BCA about it. Whether or not it is a true revision is also a good question.
 
SVP said:
So…it’s my fault I’m not in the secret loop? :confused:
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You have it all wrong, SVP. There is no fault to be had.

Better to say:
“I can’t help it that I am not an incessant gossip monger with nothing better to do than follow the BCC Soap Opera and spend a lot of time complaining about it”.
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Not that anyone here does that.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Not that anyone here does that.
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That is not a good response, it is rather judgemental. It hints at the idea that the other person is a gossip. You say ‘not that anyone here does that’ but the statement says basically "you might be an incessant gossip monger but I am not.’
 
SVP said:
So…it’s my fault I’m not in the secret loop? :confused:

Actually there are a great many of us here on CAF who are not in the “loop” with regards to such shaded intimations. Yes, “oh well” is quite right since you are obviously NOT going to state what you know and think everyone else knows by your coy statement.

Congratulations on cantoring in Slovakia. Not all of us have the financial wherewithal to afford such trips to our ancestral homelands.
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I got my info from cantors in Pittsburgh, people at the MCI and even seminarians in Presov and Uzhorod… 😛

As for financial wherewithal, I worked 2 jobs and scrimped and saved for all my trips and I’m proud I did:thumbsup:

sorry you haven’t
 
This is a complex issue to say the least. There have been numerous attempts at reforms in various places with the Byzantine liturgy, whether in Greece, in the Balkans or in the Russian Church. A reform was being discussed in Russia at the time of the Revolution which Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann spoke about.

I believe the large-scale reform you are referring to was the so-called “Nikonian Reform” which occurred in the later 17th century under the impetus of Patriarch Nikon. Prayers and liturgical services were changed.

Those who refused the reforms were sometimes martyred, and the entire Old Beliver/Old Ritualist movements have their beginnings with this reform.

The RDL is also a complex issue; personally I consider it a revision and not a fuller, more comprehensive reform as can be compared with the Pauline Mass and the 1962 Latin Rite or with the Old Rite and the Nikonian Reform.

While the RDL certainly has aspects of modern Latin liturgical approaches that have come after the implementation of the *Novus Ordo *such as inclusive language, abbreviations, mandated/consistent musical settings the two are certainly very distinct in historical and liturgical development.
FDRLB

n.b. Regarding the “broo-ha-ha”, one iota added to the Creed created immense turmoil and theological problems for the Church for centuries afterwards.
 
Patchunky said:
I got my info from cantors in Pittsburgh, people at the MCI and even seminarians in Presov and Uzhorod… 😛

As for financial wherewithal, I worked 2 jobs and scrimped and saved for all my trips and I’m proud I did:thumbsup:

sorry you haven’t
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Sorry I haven’t…what?

I never said I hadn’t travelled! :tiphat: Your assumption that I hadn’t saved up and travelled is rather juvenile, much alnog the vein of " 😛 " as you indicate referring to how you came about your “secret” information. I travelled without working two jobs, thank you.

Back to the subject of DL and reform…
To top it off, the man who re-wrote the new DL music …
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As to “the man who re-wrote” the music, he was given the task of setting the translation given to him by Met. Basil to the accepted ‘standard’ of music as found in Bakshay, Papp, Ratsin. He did not re-write any music as had been the case of the 1964 commission.
 
SVP said:
Sorry I haven’t…what?

I never said I hadn’t travelled! :tiphat: Your assumption that I hadn’t saved up and travelled is rather juvenile, much alnog the vein of " 😛 " as you indicate referring to how you came about your “secret” information. I travelled without working two jobs, thank you.

Back to the subject of DL and reform…

As to “the man who re-wrote” the music, he was given the task of setting the translation given to him by Met. Basil to the accepted ‘standard’ of music as found in Bakshay, Papp, Ratsin. He did not re-write any music as had been the case of the 1964 commission.
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good for you, I’m glad you’re rich

he re-wrote the music so get over it
 
jimmy said:
That is not a good response, it is rather judgemental. It hints at the idea that the other person is a gossip. You say ‘not that anyone here does that’ but the statement says basically "you might be an incessant gossip monger but I am not.’
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I am saying that no one here should be doing that. I hope that is not the case. If the shoe fits, people should look at what they are doing.

But I am accusing no one. Still, anyone who wants to examine what they write and talk about to make sure they are not reveling in gossip - well that is always a good thing to do, like checking the oil level in your car, just to be safe.
 
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