Divine Office

[friardchips]

Hello.

I have a few questions regarding the Divine Office that I’d really appreciate a definite answer (if possible):

1. Is the Divine Office the same structure of prayers for Franciscan as it is for Benedictines (and other Orders) i.e:- are the Divine Office books the same for any Order?
2. Is the order of hours for the Divine Office the same in structure, in the U.S and the U.K - would there be any differences?
3. What is a good english translation close to the original translations (no offence intended but preferably no U.S translations as the further away from Rome in distance the more ‘relaxed’ the translations; and not “thou art”, “thy” etc - old english…)? - I remember buying a ‘Little Crown’ book of morning and evening prayer in an American translation and the prayers were ruined - details as simple as “Glory be to the Father”…changed to “Glory to the…”. And the amount of little changes throughout really ruined the beauty of the prayers.

Thanks?!

 

[Gorgias]

1. Is the Divine Office the same structure of prayers for Franciscan as it is for Benedictines (and other Orders) i.e:- are the Divine Office books the same for any Order?

Orders may have a particular form of the prayers. Generally, IIRC, there are more ‘hours’ that some religious orders observe than the five that are part of the ‘normal’ Breviary.

1. Is the order of hours for the Divine Office the same in structure, in the U.S and the U.K - would there be any differences?

To the best of my knowledge, there’s no difference in the structure (number of hours, etc) between the U.S. and U.K versions.

 

[OraLabora]

The Benedictines have had their own version, still licit and valid, for 1500 or so years, though since Vatican II there are some new versions distributing the psalter over 1 or 2 weeks depending on versions. Individual houses are free to adapt any one of them for their own use, or develop their own. Benedictines are not a centralized order, every house being nominally independent within some very flexible norms.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Interesting thought on the old English. A curiosity is that I used to believe the same thing. Made it unreadable. Then I started using DivinumOfficium for the hours. They have English and Latin.

After a while I went to a more updated site and it was almost intolerable. Really, the old language flows so much more beautifully and is able to convey the emotion in a way not available to the 21st century writers. I see why it has persevered throughout the centuries.

It really does make for a more powerful prayer experience if you can soldier through it a little.

Good luck with your journey!

 

[tee_eff_em]

Orders may have a particular form of the prayers. Generally, IIRC, there are more ‘hours’ that some religious orders observe than the five that are part of the ‘normal’ Breviary.

There are Franciscan supplements to the CBP (sorry, US-centricity) Office books because the Franciscans have an augmented calendar.

tee

 

[Mary_Ellen]

With regards to #1, different orders have additional memorials, feasts, and solemnities which they observe. Depending on when they occur, most of the time they are celebrated instead of what is dictated for those following the general calendar. There’s a hierarchy which determines when the order-specific celebration trumps the general calendar or not.

 

[friardchips]

Orders may have a particular form of the prayers. Generally, IIRC, there are more ‘hours’ that some religious orders observe than the five that are part of the ‘normal’ Breviary.

Hi! Thanks! Do you mean by “form”, what Mary_Ellen mentioned, as to swapping some prayers for feast days? Or do you mean the form of the prayers themselves?

To the best of my knowledge, there’s no difference in the structure (number of hours, etc) between the U.S. and U.K versions.

Okay. So maybe the structure is universal then.

Thank you!

 

[friardchips]

With regards to #1, different orders have additional memorials, feasts, and solemnities which they observe. Depending on when they occur, most of the time they are celebrated instead of what is dictated for those following the general calendar. There’s a hierarchy which determines when the order-specific celebration trumps the general calendar or not.

This is an excellent point. I can see this happening now that you mention it.

So I suppose what one could do would be to not worry about the individual feast days and concentrate on the main prayers.

Either way, this answers the question of whether a Benedictine’s Divine Office prayer book would be different to a Franciscan or a Dominican prayer book - due to the Feast Days mainly. So the numbering of the prayers (how to find one’s way about in the book) is going to differ also.

Thank you, Mary_Ellen.

 

[friardchips]

There are Franciscan supplements to the CBP (sorry, US-centricity) Office books because the Franciscans have an augmented calendar.

tee

Not being conversant with Divine Office ins and outs - what is the CBP please?

 

[friardchips]

Interesting thought on the old English. A curiosity is that I used to believe the same thing. Made it unreadable. Then I started using DivinumOfficium for the hours. They have English and Latin.

After a while I went to a more updated site and it was almost intolerable. Really, the old language flows so much more beautifully and is able to convey the emotion in a way not available to the 21st century writers. I see why it has persevered throughout the centuries.

It really does make for a more powerful prayer experience if you can soldier through it a little.

Good luck with your journey!

Thank you for this insightful post! I can see why, from your experience, it is that an older translation could add to the beauty and flow of the prayers if one can get used to them. I can’t go this way though because Orders will not have the prayers in old english so it might make praying along more awkward. Certainly, when one looks at even slightly later translations, even without old english, and sees words just so much more lacking in description tearing the psalms apart, it is sad to read.

 

[friardchips]

The Benedictines have had their own version, still licit and valid, for 1500 or so years, though since Vatican II there are some new versions distributing the psalter over 1 or 2 weeks depending on versions. Individual houses are free to adapt any one of them for their own use, or develop their own. Benedictines are not a centralized order, every house being nominally independent within some very flexible norms.

Thank you for this, OraLabora. This is very important to know. Maybe then, the older of each of the Orders - before all of the recollect branches of each Order - are going to sway more towards something known originally as the prototype. So for example, Bene.'s might not be the centralized Order but because they’re one of the older Orders, other original Orders (before recollections). might conform to something more like theirs - is it possible that the Benedictines, the oldest franc. Order, the Old Dominicon Order and oldest Carmelite Order possibly all have something similar (minus feast days, as has been mentioned by other posters), with the smaller later individual branches from those original Orders possibly morphing their versions into something more unusual? Then again, I can see how, even from main original Order to main original Order the hours might differ due to their charism - contemplative or apostolic etc…?! I wonder if, aside from the Vatican having, as you said, “distributed the psalter over 1 or 2 weeks”, they might have introduced regulation structure, because some time after St. Francis began his Order, very many other Orders started up, which might have spurred the Vatican to introduce such regulations out of necessity (which of course might then have been relaxed again)?

 

[OraLabora]

Looking at the post-Vatican II picture, these are the differences between the LOTH and the Benedictine Divine Office:

• Calendar: the Benedictines follow their own Calendar for their particular saints.
• Psalter schemas:
  Schema A, 250 psalms a week with many repetitions
  Schema B, 150 psalms a week, no repetitions
  Schema C & D, two-week psalter
• Structure: the option to place the hymn of Lauds and Vespers after the reading and its responsory, instead of at the beginning of the Hour
• Structure: if the option to place the hymn after the responsory is used, a verse/response is placed after the hymn (example for Vespers in OT: "V./ Dirigatur Domine oration mea R./Sicut incensum in conspectu tuo)
• Structure: the option to place the hymn of Compline after the psalmody
• Structure: Compline nominally has no responsory or Nunc Dimittis but can be used ad libitum, normally the verse “V./Custodi nos Domine ut pupillam oculi R./Sub umbra alarum tuarum protege nos” is used; traditionally in the Benedictine Office, Compline is psalms 4, 90 and 133
• Mandatory canonical hours: Vigils (Matins), Lauds, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, Compline
• Optional canonical hours: some houses maintain Prime; others redistribute the psalms of Prime to other hours.

Currently the Benedictine Divine Office using psalter schema A is the oldest surviving psalter schema in the Church.

(edit: for particular reasons, some communities may use the 4-week LOTH; I’ve encountered this in one house, as well as a hybrid LOTH/Monastic antiphonary Office in one place).

 

[friardchips]

Looking at the post-Vatican II picture, these are the differences between the LOTH and the Benedictine Divine Office:

• Calendar: the Benedictines follow their own Calendar for their particular saints.
• Psalter schemas:
  Schema A, 250 psalms a week with many repetitions
  Schema B, 150 psalms a week, no repetitions
  Schema C & D, two-week psalter
• Structure: the option to place the hymn of Lauds and Vespers after the reading and its responsory, instead of at the beginning of the Hour
• Structure: if the option to place the hymn after the responsory is used, a verse/response is placed after the hymn (example for Vespers in OT: "V./ Dirigatur Domine oration mea R./Sicut incensum in conspectu tuo)
• Structure: the option to place the hymn of Compline after the psalmody
• Structure: Compline nominally has no responsory or Nunc Dimittis but can be used ad libitum, normally the verse “V./Custodi nos Domine ut pupillam oculi R./Sub umbra alarum tuarum protege nos” is used; traditionally in the Benedictine Office, Compline is psalms 4, 90 and 133
• Mandatory canonical hours: Vigils (Matins), Lauds, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, Compline
• Optional canonical hours: some houses maintain Prime; others redistribute the psalms of Prime to other hours.

Currently the Benedictine Divine Office using psalter schema A is the oldest surviving psalter schema in the Church.

(edit: for particular reasons, some communities may use the 4-week LOTH; I’ve encountered this in one house, as well as a hybrid LOTH/Monastic antiphonary Office in one place).

This is great, many thanks! A solid informational base to work from! I can then find out Orders which I’m drawn towards, then see which they are using by refering back to this list, to find the middle ground between them all. Quite involved. But necessary, I think. When one gets the hang of using one of the more involved prayer books it will be easier to navigate around any less complicated variants.

 

[Magdalen2013]

Not being conversant with Divine Office ins and outs - what is the CBP please?

CBP = Catholic Book Publications

CBP produces “Christian Prayer” the US version of the Liturgy of the Hours (aka “Divine Office”)

They have several versions of the LotH – a four volume, a single volume, and Shorter Christian Prayer which has only Morning, Evening and Night Prayer.

I suspect your “Little Crown” was actually CBP’s version of the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which leaves a great deal to be desired. When I use the Little Office, I do the 1946 version edited by J. M. Lelen.

 

[friardchips]

CBP = Catholic Book Publications

CBP produces “Christian Prayer” the US version of the Liturgy of the Hours (aka “Divine Office”)

They have several versions of the LotH – a four volume, a single volume, and Shorter Christian Prayer which has only Morning, Evening and Night Prayer.

I suspect your “Little Crown” was actually CBP’s version of the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which leaves a great deal to be desired. When I use the Little Office, I do the 1946 version edited by J. M. Lelen.

Ah, I see. I’ll avoid CBP in future, knowing what to expect. Thank you.

The reason I bought the Little Crown prayer book was because of its layout. It was very well structured and easy to navigate but was really disappointed with the way they’d abused the prayers.

I think publications that try to be all mod. language really ruin it for everyone else and do a great disservice to the Church, IMHO. Makes me a bit cross.

 

[tee_eff_em]

1. What is a good english translation close to the original translations (no offence intended but preferably no U.S translations as the further away from Rome in distance the more ‘relaxed’ the translations; and not “thou art”, “thy” etc - old english…)? - I remember buying a ‘Little Crown’ book of morning and evening prayer in an American translation and the prayers were ruined - details as simple as “Glory be to the Father”…changed to “Glory to the…”. And the amount of little changes throughout really ruined the beauty of the prayers.

Ah, I see. I’ll avoid CBP in future, knowing what to expect. Thank you.

The reason I bought the Little Crown prayer book was because of its layout. It was very well structured and easy to navigate but was really disappointed with the way they’d abused the prayers.

I think publications that try to be all mod. language really ruin it for everyone else and do a great disservice to the Church, IMHO. Makes me a bit cross.

To be fair, CBP is only the publisher, which they faithfully print the translation which was produced by the ICEL* and approved by the USCCB (and some other English speaking conferences). The Daughters of St Paul also publish 4-volume and 1-volume versions of the liturgy of the hours, and the translation is identical to CBP’s (The layout and typest is different).

The Bishops of England and Wales originally used the ICEL translation, but later produced a different one (in 3 volumes) which many think is superior. You may obtain and use this translation in private devotion if you wish, but not for the public prayer of the Church (if you are, in fact, in the US).

(* ICEL International Commission on English in the Liturgy (or similar))

tee

 

[friardchips]

To be fair, CBP is only the publisher, which they faithfully print the translation which was produced by the ICEL* and approved by the USCCB (and some other English speaking conferences). The Daughters of St Paul also publish 4-volume and 1-volume versions of the liturgy of the hours, and the translation is identical to CBP’s (The layout and typest is different).

The Bishops of England and Wales originally used the ICEL translation, but later produced a different one (in 3 volumes) which many think is superior. You may obtain and use this translation in private devotion if you wish, but not for the public prayer of the Church (if you are, in fact, in the US).

(* ICEL International Commission on English in the Liturgy (or similar))

tee

Tee and Magdalen 2013, I did check my Little Office Book and it is indeed CBP. It says after it ‘New Jersey’

As I said, it was beautifully laid out but some of the translations of the prayers were awful which was a shame and it ruined the book for me.

I don’t think that when translations are that messed around with they should be approved. So maybe it is that this body - the USCCB - are not being as strict as they could be.

As I said, it doesn’t do anyone any favours, by adapting the text too much because this leads to ruining the sense, the emphasis, beauty and even meaning (in some cases).

Thanks for your replies.

 

[agnes_therese]

To be fair, CBP is only the publisher, which they faithfully print the translation which was produced by the ICEL* and approved by the USCCB (and some other English speaking conferences).
tee

And approval has been given for a revised translation, to bring it in line with the revised missal. However, knowing the speed at which these projects go, I would not hold my breath.

 

[tee_eff_em]

And approval has been given for a revised translation, to bring it in line with the revised missal. However, knowing the speed at which these projects go, I would not hold my breath.

*Really!?!? *If approval has been given, what is stopping the publication of new books!?

Or do you mean that *approval has been given for *[the production of] *a revised translation [but which does not exist yet], and which is, indeed, a glacially slow process?
(And which, for the record, is a very different meaning from the translation which was produced by the ICEL and approved by the USCCB)


tee

 

[Vico]

Really!?!? If approval has been given, what is stopping the publication of new books!?

Or do you mean that *approval has been given for *[the production of] *a revised translation [but which does not exist yet], and which is, indeed, a glacially slow process?
(And which, for the record, is a very different meaning from the translation which was produced by the ICEL and approved by the USCCB)


tee

In the USA November 11, 2014
BALTIMORE—The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) approved several liturgical items, including revisions to the liturgy of the hours … during their annual Fall General Assembly in Baltimore, November 11…

The bishops voted on the following five liturgical items presented by the Committee on Divine Worship:

• A revised English translation of the ritual book, “Order of the Dedication of a Church and an Altar” was approved with 168 votes in favor, 6 against and 2 abstaining.
• The first official English translation of the ritual book, “Exorcisms and Related Supplications” was approved in a 179-5-2 vote.
• The bishops also voted 167-34-2 to approve modifications to the “Revised Grail Psalter” including improving the translation to facilitate easier proclamation and singing.
• An English translation of the “Supplement to the Liturgy of the Hours” that includes prayers used for the feast days of saints who have been added to the General Calendar since 1984, was approved in a 210-2-0 vote.

These items, passed by two thirds of the Latin-rite bishops, will be sent to Rome for approval.

usccb.org/news/2014/14-186.cfm