Divine Providence

[scameter18]

From what I have been able to surmise from Catholic theology, the Bible, the Catechism, etc., God does not directly cause every single movement and event in existence, unlike polytheistic deities were believed to. For example, pagans believed that every star’s celestial movement was directly caused or “pushed” by a specific deity. Deities controlled all of nature in this way. Other systems, some even monotheistic (such as Muslims) believe similarly. But Catholicism seems to believe in laws of nature which God instituted, but that control nature without His direction continuous causality.

God does, however, have the power to do anything in nature He desires, but these actions are “miraculous”, meaning, outside the norm of natural occurances. For example, in a miraculous healing, God would heal a disease that the Church and scientists have proven to be incurable by natural means, and that heals randomly without any visible cause or explanation - other than God Himself.

The Church also teaches that everything we have and experience is “sustained” by God, because without God’s creative will the universe could not exist. But despite this “sustaining”, God still does not directly cause natural events without a miracle, which by its very nature must be rare in order to be spectacular.

But with the teachings of Catholic prayer, we are also supposed to pray to God for the things we need, for health, protection, happiness; and to pray for others, both spiritually and physically, in their bodies, minds and experiences of natural life. For example, we would pray for the safe travel of a loved one on a plane trip, or for peace in the Middle East, or for the healing of diseases.

By praying in this way, for God to cause a change in the physical universe (excluding prayers specifically for spiritual things, like forgiveness of sins), do we not go against the Catholic conviction that God does not directly cause or intervene in nature unless He does so miraculously, which is very rare? I understand the spiritual value of praying in hope, of fostering that hope in ourselves and a reliance on God. But since miracles are quite rare and we cannot know when or how they will happen (their primary purpose being to lead people to Him anyways), why do we pray this way?

 

[valentino]

Im not aware of any church teachingthat says God doesnt intervene in nature (in the sense that you speak of).God allows the natural world to proceed without divine intervention But that doesnt mean He never uses divine intervention to cause or stop a calamity froom occuring.EX.the plagues of Egypt.The Church believes God can and does intervene in nature on behave of man when he turns to God in times of some immanent danger.

 

[scameter18]

I understand that God can, has and does intervene in nature. But those occurances are miraculous and rare. To use your example of the biblical plagues of Egypt, that was not an everyday event - hence why it was so special when it happened. Normally, God lets the world behave by the natural laws He has established, intervening only in very important instances, from what I can surmise. Thus my question is: if God rarely intervenes, is the purpose of praying for God’s intervention in nature primarily to increase reliance and hope in God? And if God does directly cause every single event in nature, how could He cause some of the terribly destructive things that occur, such as the recent catastrophes in Japan? If God lets the world function by natural law and by the taint of sin in the world, then things like those Japan disasters would make more sense, while my question on prayer remains.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I understand that God can, has and does intervene in nature. But those occurances are miraculous and rare. To use your example of the biblical plagues of Egypt, that was not an everyday event - hence why it was so special when it happened. Normally, God lets the world behave by the natural laws He has established, intervening only in very important instances, from what I can surmise.

I would disagree. There are an infinite amount of possibilities that can occur on a day-to-day basis. For example, under what I would call “standard conditions”, a plane could have crashed, but a simple prayer said by one’s relatives may have mitigated that possibility. In that sense, God intervened, but His intervention was not known, because a skeptic would have concluded that the plane was bound to go from point A to point B safely. What the skeptic did not know was that the plane was actually going to crash, but a simple prayer changed the course of events such that it journeyed safely. This leads to the coincidence/miracle dichotomy that I asked about in an earlier thread. Ultimately, “coincidence” does not exist in the dictionary of believers, and faith is really the only way of acknowledging God’s existence (Romans 5).

The miracles that you are referring to when you say things such as the Plagues in Egypt are those miracles that in latin we would call “ex post”…that is, they occur after a bad event has happened. In the case of a plane crash, an ex post miracle would be to find the given person alive, against all odds. In that case, God’s glory is known to all. But one has to ask themselves why it would take a bad event to occur (an ex-post miracle) to then see God’s glory, rather than before a bad event to occur (which in latin we would call an ex-ante miracle).

And if God does directly cause every single event in nature, how could He cause some of the terribly destructive things that occur, such as the recent catastrophes in Japan? If God lets the world function by natural law and by the taint of sin in the world, then things like those Japan disasters would make more sense, while my question on prayer remains.

Jesus spoke about this directly in fact: ““Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No …].” (Luke 13:4)

Now look at this, and look at what happened in Japan. What Jesus was saying was that the eighteen who were killed by the tower in Siloam were not killed because of God’s punishment. In other words, bad events do not always occur because God has ordained it to be so. The nature of sin is that it has a subset known as “natural evil” which refers to evil events occurring outside human control (such as Japan’s earthquake/tsunami). It is a consequence of sin brought on from Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God. Jesus then goes on to say:

"No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."” (Luke 13:5). In other words, Heaven is the destination that believers should be aiming for; it is a place free from sin. Those who do not repent, in Jesus’ words, will perish. And it is interesting to note how Jesus uses the comparison between the earthly event, and the events that are to come in the next world.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[scameter18]

Bohm Bawerk:

For example, under what I would call “standard conditions”, a plane could have crashed, but a simple prayer said by one’s relatives may have mitigated that possibility. In that sense, God intervened, but His intervention was not known, because a skeptic would have concluded that the plane was bound to go from point A to point B safely. What the skeptic did not know was that the plane was actually going to crash, but a simple prayer changed the course of events such that it journeyed safely… The miracles that you are referring to when you say things such as the Plagues in Egypt are those miracles that in latin we would call “ex post”…that is, they occur after a bad event has happened.

The first point is more the source of my difficulty. Ex-post and ex-ante miracles both involve God’s intervention in nature, whether before or after an event, or independant of a negative condition at all (such as the Transfiguration). I am not trying to express the skeptic’s view you aptly described. But usually, nature does function in that way, by the causality of the laws of nature. I am not a determinist in my stance on the philosophy of nature; I prefer holistic or organic philosophy. But that is beside the point. When the plane, in your example, was about to crash, which in a normal situation it would without a parallel event of some kind to prevent it - if someone prayed that it would not crash, and God decided to answer their prayer, He would have to intervene through nature to prevent the crash, or at least to save everyone aboard’s life.

I understand this idea, that God has the power to intervene in nature miraculously and that He sometimes does, on rare occasion, by necessity of miracles. But every time a plane could crash but doesn’t, or crashes and everyone aboard lives, people attribute it to God’s intervention, at least by thanking Him for it. Does God directly cause every good thing that happens in nature? If not, what should be attributed to God, and what would be the purpose in thanking Him for something He did not do? I am desperately trying to voice my questions here without falling into doubt. I am sure of my faithfulness and do not feel as if I’m doubting. I’m still a relatively new Catholic, and this is something I would simply like to understand. I believe thanking God is important, I just want to understand it better.
Bohm Bawerk:

The nature of sin is that it has a subset known as “natural evil” which refers to evil events occurring outside human control (such as Japan’s earthquake/tsunami). It is a consequence of sin brought on from Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God.

This would answer my question - God does not directly cause every event in nature. Not every negative event, at least.
Bohm Bawerk:

Jesus then goes on to say: “No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”” (Luke 13:5). In other words, Heaven is the destination that believers should be aiming for; it is a place free from sin. Those who do not repent, in Jesus’ words, will perish. And it is interesting to note how Jesus uses the comparison between the earthly event, and the events that are to come in the next world.

Yes, it is interesting. The world is very much analogous to the things of God, in whom all is fulfilled. Nature affects everyone, both good and evil. It also reminds me of this passage: “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Matthew 5:45) … correlated to this: “The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.” (Matthew 7:25)

 

[awatkins69]

Why couldn’t it be that God foresaw we would pray to him for something, and so he made it the case that our prayers would be answered?

 

[scameter18]

That is an interesting idea. But it would still involve God specifically intervening in nature to change what would otherwise have happened by natural causality.

 

[awatkins69]

That is an interesting idea. But it would still involve God specifically intervening in nature to change what would otherwise have happened by natural causality.

Well, remember, all the things which were causally determined to happen were part of God’s plan. For instance, that the earth would come into being and whatnot. So it’s still possible for God to have caused something to happen by natural means. Make sense or am I being too confusing?

 

[scameter18]

Not confusing at all. Are you saying that, at Creation, God organized the universe in such a way that it would develop as He desired, to suit His future plans, and His personal interventions, i.e. miracles, primarily apply to humanity (since we have free will) or to things that could not happen by purely natural means (like biogenesis)?

 

[awatkins69]

Not confusing at all. Are you saying that, at Creation, God organized the universe in such a way that it would develop as He desired, to suit His future plans, and His personal interventions, i.e. miracles, primarily apply to humanity (since we have free will) or to things that could not happen by purely natural means (like biogenesis)?

I think both really. For instance, God may have foreseen that we would be in need of a miracle, like some of the eucharistic miracles, so he made it the case that that would happen. Or maybe he predetermined the universe so that it would produce early lifeforms and ultimately humans (abiogenesis is somewhat dubitable, but that’s kind of beside the point). In the same way, maybe he foresaw that we would pray to him for this or that thing, and he set up the universe accordingly. I think this is an orthodox way to think about God’s providence. Hope that’s somewhat helpful.

 

[scameter18]

Hm… I suppose this would verge more into the philosophical argument for or against physical determinism in nature which, though causality is certainly a law of nature, seems still up in the air. I tend to take a more “holistic” or organic view of nature, where the laws of nature are more general, but that specific events in nature occur due to the inherent qualities of individual things interacting with one another, and that the results of their interactions are not predetermined by their condition. But my views on that, like natural determinism itself, are still mostly undeveloped. Philosophy remains my mistress even after conversion.

 

[valentino]

I understand that God can, has and does intervene in nature. But those occurances are miraculous and rare. To use your example of the biblical plagues of Egypt, that was not an everyday event - hence why it was so special when it happened. Normally, God lets the world behave by the natural laws He has established, intervening only in very important instances, from what I can surmise. Thus my question is: if God rarely intervenes, is the purpose of praying for God’s intervention in nature primarily to increase reliance and hope in God? And if God does directly cause every single event in nature, how could He cause some of the terribly destructive things that occur, such as the recent catastrophes in Japan? If God lets the world function by natural law and by the taint of sin in the world, then things like those Japan disasters would make more sense, while my question on prayer remains.

I of course cant speak for everybody but if I were to pray for some catastophy not to happen,ex.there has been in recent days of lot of seismic activity being noticed by seismology experts in the region of the san andreas fault in san francisco) it wouldnt be to increase reliance or hope in God it would be because I know God loves man and is all merciful and may stop a catatropic event from happening.Im not clear what you mean" God lets the world function by the taint of sin in the world".

 

[scameter18]

I meant that God’s primary purpose with miracles is to increase people’s faith, as Christ said in His own miracles, always forgiving sins as a first priority, though I am not trying to deny His infinite love and mercy for our physical wellbeing as well. And by that quoted statement, I meant that original sin has tainted the material universe in a way that makes it not entirely suitable for us, i.e. chaos, enmity with other living things, toiling labor, disease, etc. Things that no person causes, but that simply happens in nature - this is caused by original sin affecting the world, things that did not exist in Eden pre-Fall. Normally, i.e. outside miraculous situations, God does not directly prevent this from happening.

 

[tonyrey]

I meant that God’s primary purpose with miracles is to increase people’s faith, as Christ said in His own miracles, always forgiving sins as a first priority, though I am not trying to deny His infinite love and mercy for our physical wellbeing as well. And by that quoted statement, I meant that original sin has tainted the material universe in a way that makes it not entirely suitable for us, i.e. chaos, enmity with other living things, toiling labor, disease, etc. Things that no person causes, but that simply happens in nature - this is caused by original sin affecting the world, things that did not exist in Eden pre-Fall. Normally, i.e. outside miraculous situations, God does not directly prevent this from happening.

An infinitely loving Father’s primary concern must be both our spiritual and our physical welfare. Jesus demonstrated by His words and actions that we are not allowed to suffer unnecessarily. Excessive suffering can cause people to lose their faith.

It is impossible to know to what extent God does intervene but I’m sure it is far more often than than we suspect. The only limit to the number of miracles is the degree of disorder that would result and the resulting unpredictability of events. There must come a stage at which the suspension of natural laws would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly universe. We would not only never know what to expect next but we would also be aware that a benevolent Power is protecting us from harm. It would also interfere with free will if bullets were deflected at close range to save people’s lives. Life would be a topsy-turvy affair rather than an opportunity for spiritual development and an opportunity to choose what to believe and how to live.

 

[scameter18]

I completely agree with you, in both statements. But as I’ve said earlier and as you corroborate here, with God having created an ordered universe with natural laws which, as you said, He would not go against too often, what is the purpose of thanking Him when events turn out well, or to pray for a specific outcome of an event? Again I certainly believe that it is very important to do both of these things. I am just trying to figure out why, and to understand it better. I appreciate your help and everyone else’s.

 

[tonyrey]

I completely agree with you, in both statements. But as I’ve said earlier and as you corroborate here, with God having created an ordered universe with natural laws which, as you said, He would not go against too often, what is the purpose of thanking Him when events turn out well, or to pray for a specific outcome of an event? Again I certainly believe that it is very important to do both of these things. I am just trying to figure out why, and to understand it better. I appreciate your help and everyone else’s.

I understand the difficulty. What is the point of praying when God always does what is best anyway?

The answer is implied in the prayer Jesus gave us.** Our activity is one of the factors God takes into account.** To the extent that we don’t forgive others we are not forgiven. We’re not islands in an ocean. We are all part of the mainland! One falling stone can cause a cliff to collapse! One person - like Karl Marx or Gandhi - can change the lives of millions. Even the rape of one “insignificant” woman can help to overthrow Gadaffi’s regime.

All this is implied in the Communion of Saints. Incredibly enough we determine to some extent how God acts! Our prayers produce results just as our love transforms lives. Both are intangible forces that are far more powerful than brute force. The mere fact that Jesus prayed and told us to pray should convince us that our prayers are not only effective but essential. We all have our part to play in the outcome of events - and it is either positive or negative…

 

[scameter18]

Prayer certainly has a role in human events, as does God’s direct effects, primarily through the Holy Spirit. The majority of God’s direct actions in the world are spiritual, within us, confering grace, wisdom, faith, strength, suffering, forgiveness, etc. These can affect individuals, and thus affect all people.

But my question is not about God’s spiritual actions, or His actions that deal directly with our internal condition. It is also not about the spiritual effects of prayer. Rather, my question is about God’s direct manipulation of the natural world - outside the internal, spiritual state of man, but including his mind and body - especially as a result of prayer. Miracles are examples of this, particularly miracles where God heals a sickness in our mind and/or body. By doing so, He manipulates the physical world directly. But Christians do not only attribute miracles to God. Anytime something good happens, we thank God for it, and even say it was due to Him. For example, the Scripture says all good comes from God. But if something good happens in the physical world, without human intervention other than prayer, does God directly manipulate nature to produce this good result, going against natural laws and chance?

If He doesn’t, and the world always functions by natural laws and chance, other than prayer, why do we attribute all good things to God?

 

[tonyrey]

Prayer certainly has a role in human events, as does God’s direct effects, primarily through the Holy Spirit. The majority of God’s direct actions in the world are spiritual, within us, conferring grace, wisdom, faith, strength, suffering, forgiveness, etc. These can affect individuals, and thus affect all people.

But my question is not about God’s spiritual actions, or His actions that deal directly with our internal condition. It is also not about the spiritual effects of prayer. Rather, my question is about God’s direct manipulation of the natural world - outside the internal, spiritual state of man, but including his mind and body - especially as a result of prayer. Miracles are examples of this, particularly miracles where God heals a sickness in our mind and/or body. By doing so, He manipulates the physical world directly. But Christians do not only attribute miracles to God. Anytime something good happens, we thank God for it, and even say it was due to Him. For example, the Scripture says all good comes from God. But if something good happens in the physical world, without human intervention other than prayer, does God directly manipulate nature to produce this good result, going against natural laws and chance?
If He doesn’t, and the world always functions by natural laws and chance, other than prayer, why do we attribute all good things to God?

We thank God not only for miracles but for the laws of nature which are the basis of the immense value of physical life on earth. Jesus drew our attention to the wonder and beauty of the lilies and the birds… We cannot always tell when God intervenes but it makes no difference because existence itself is a miracle!

 

[JohnJFarren]

JESUSCHRISTTRINITY 4 April 2011 110404
Hello scameter and Bohm and tontrey and others –
Very interesting discussion. I’d like to share what things occurred to me, having read your posts.
The question was asked, “Why do we attribute all good things [things that happen] to God.” Because God is the First Cause of all and any finite beings that exist. If we do not ultimately attribute them to God, to whom shall we attribute them? Or am I not understanding the question?
Also the question was asked, “What is the purpose of thanking God for something [good] He did not do?” There cannot be, exist, anything good that God did not do. Or am I not understanding the question?
Also asked was, “What’s the point of praying [petitioning] when God always does what is best anyway?” An excellent response was also posted, “Our activity [our free choices] is one of the factors God takes into account.” God freely decided in eternity to create. Prior (not before because before, if used here, would be a time word) … prior to God’s decision to create, nothing existed and there was nothing for God to Know in creation. Subsequent (not after because after, if used here, would be a time word) … subsequent to God’s decision to create but prior to God’s Act of creating, God Knew with total completeness and absolute certainty, every creature act, free choice or not free choice, from the Big Bang into all eternity. In this Knowing God “adjusts” what He will do for good to the various choices, freely made or not, of the innumerable creatures in His creation.
I like the story of the farmer who was deciding to work at planting or not planting his seed for the next crop. “Now the Lord knows whether there will be a crop or not. And I sure can’t change what the Lord knows will certainly happen. So, if He knows there WILL be a crop, that’s the way it is and I can’t change it. But if He knows there will NOT be a crop, I sure can’t change that either. So, I’m gonna sit right down here on the porch, drink my lemonade and read my paper. What God knows will be, will be.” Wrong. All wrong.
Of course, we suffer from the sins of all mankind … and certainly from many of the consequences of our own personal sins. But as a baby cries and has pain when cutting teeth, all of us inevitably and necessarily suffer very much throughout our lives in BECOMING, GROWING UP, MATURING, especially spiritually. God will not have puppets. Never will God wave a magic wand and cause us to grow to full maturity in an instant. In the Second Eucharistic Prayer we pray that together with Mary, “we be made worthy of Eternal Life.” Eternal Life, sharing in Jesus Christ in the Eternal Life of the Trinity, is not merely a Divine Gift. Rather it is something that God wants us TO BE WORTHY OF. And that’s going to take a lot of doing.
There are some good things God wants done. Period. And they shall happen in history. There are other some good things God would like to see done … but wants us to share in His creativity – even, as secondary but real causes, and in union with Jesus – in the Redemption and Salvation of creation … God encourages us to freely, His grace working in us, to freely choose such good things to be.
A Name for God might be THE GREAT SHARER. God’s Infinite Love for us calls us to share with God all that it is metaphysically possible for God to share. I see no limit here.
In thinking of “physical determinism,” yes, among physicists this continues to be debated. Werner Heisenberg. Copenhagen Theory. And more. Certainly the levels of different sciences and knowledges get confused here. Jacques Maritain wrote one of his greatest works, The Degrees of Knowledge, to portray the various levels (including Spiritual Mysticism) and the quite different methods and the possible and expected outcomes of these many and varied sciences.
I share with you what, correct or incorrect, I understand here. I am thinking of the material creation EXCLUDING all creatures that do have free choice. This includes physics and chemistry and biology and all plants and all animal psychology. In all of this there is no free choice. Considering, however, that mankind from the caves to the symphony hall, by the every movement and choice of every single human being, human beings have moved and changed all the atoms and molecules to the farthest edge of the universe. But aside from these human movements, all else in the universe is utterly determined until altered by man. (Unless an atom has free will!) Just a thought.
There are things that God does all by Himself. Consider the Trinity and the Processions. In creation as First Cause God always does absolutely everything. But God so generously wants us to share with Him, as secondary, real, free causes, so very many of the activities in creation. What miracles God works all by Himself, I think we cannot know. God does, now and then, delight to work miracles through His saints, especially the canonized ones. But God remains and absolutely must remain the First Cause, the First Doer.
In the following, I must take a different view point. “… we are not allowed to suffer unnecessarily.” The extreme sufferings of the Jews and others in the Nazi holocaust were clearly not necessary … and certainly not directly willed by God. It is true that from any and all evils God will draw greater good. We certainly would not claim to know what good or how. For many in the Holocaust God was truly born. For many in the Holocaust God died.
Good friends, if I’ve missed the real question, please patiently clarify for me.
May the Holy Spirit, Bless us. JohnJFarren Trinity5635@aol.com

 

[valentino]

Scameter18: God wants us to pray to Him for help and also thank Him for good things that happen.Its like God sets the world in motion and there’s an earthquake that’s about to happen.But the earthquake doesn’t happen because the earth wasn’’'t ready for it.God didn’t stop it.But we thank God because He could have let it occur.In the other scenario an earthquake it about to happen and we pray to God not to let it take place and He stops it.Now we don’t know that God stopped it but by praying and puttting our trust in Him it pleases God.From the OT,history ,the teachings of Christ and His miracles we trust that God can do anything He wants to.Its faith in the God that we don’t see that pleases Him.