Divine Providence

[tonyrey]

Our temporal state, or our existence in time seems to have a continuity, a divine flow that would make more sense if it had all been designed that way from creation. Notwithstanding the notion of free will as an integral part of that design, why can’t it be both?

Because it would amount to God choosing our choices and deciding our decisions - including the evil ones!

 

[Sheadad]

A question is never against doctrine unless spiritual doubt or a presupposed desired answer is involved, which doesn’t seem to be the case here. A desire to understand is intrinsic to faith. This is the essence of what I have been attempting to grasp here, and I’ve come to some basic conclusions, one of which is speculative. The more concrete ones are:

1. The natural state of the physical universe is perfect, fully in harmony with God’s will. Only by the free sin of creatures is the universe corrupted from this original perfection. Thus, when a good thing happens, we are giving God thanks for good existence and being possible at all and in that specific situation. For example, if someone discovers a new medicine, it is only because God created it and made medicine possible, and the healing involved simply returns things to their original goodness, which is from God.
2. When God performs a specific miracle, which in order to be a miracle is necessarily rare, He in His omnipotence can go against the laws of nature which give the continuity you mentioned. Normally, existence functions by these laws, and also by the sin in the
   world. But if God so desires, He can go against nature for His purposes. For example, with the plane trip instance, He could simply sustain the fuel, not allowing it to deplete, until
   they arrived. Just as if someone has cancer, He can just make it disappear. This is His
   power and the essence of a miracle.
3. I believe that God performs many “minor miracles”, fulfilling the prayers of the faithful, on a daily basis. Essentially, anytime good occurs and sin is not allowed to win, it is by
   God’s power. Free will does not create good - it just chooses the option of God’s offered
   goodness. The precise mechanism by which these “minor miracles” occur is mysterious,
   and probably always will be, but by faith we can know that it is true.

Now, to keep in accord with note 3, angels are given power by God and throughout the Bible act as His intermediaries on the earth. So, when something good happens it is a miracle from God, worked through His angels. This is not a doctrine (to my knowledge), and my understanding of it is still lacking, but it is something to consider.

I hope I answered some of your questions. God bless.

Scameter18;

Thank you so much for posting those 3 summaries in such a clear way. The only thing I would like to add in number 3 is that he gives us the grace to recognize his offered goodness. And also (I know I just said one), the “precise mechanism” can only be a methodology in which he intervenes in the lives of the faithful to bring about an occurrence to result in his greater glory. By faith we believe that, however to reconcile with the order of temporal affairs, his intervention is surgically targeted in a manner that allows for the least disruption to natural order. So minimal in fact, that it becomes un-noticeable within our temporal framework.

Personal note; this notion of how minor miracles and work among the Angels really works seems to be right and fitting into the framework of the Gospel properly. This whole thread but the response to my post in particular, really helps me to grasp how and why he intervenes. By faith my friends,

Blessings to all,
Shaun

 

[JohnJFarren]

**This is the first of two emails posted / the second follows this one immediately --**JESUS, THE LEADER AND PERFECTER OF FAITH 19 April 2011 110419
Hello scameter … and all interested –
Yes, Jesus did say, “Of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” Matt 24:36. Let’s recall that Jesus Christ is truly God, the Second Divine Person of the Trinity … and also is truly a human being, just as truly as we are. As God, the Divine Intellect He Is … and as man he has a truly created and human intellect. The Divine Intellect Knows all that is and all that could be. Jesus’ human intellect is both different and distinct from the Divine Intellect. When Jesus said that he did not know the exact time of Judgment Day, he was speaking of his human intellect, to which the Father had not revealed that knowledge.

    "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and grace .. before God and man."   The epistle to the Hebrews contains many references to Jesus' continuing growth and maturing that are not found explicitly elsewhere in Scripture.  I call your attention especially to these --

Before Jesus was perfect, the Father made him perfect through suffering > “It was fitting that he, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the leader to their salvation perfect through suffering.” Hebrews 2:10.

Jesus had to come to us like as we are … in every way yet without personal sin > “He had to become like his brothers in every way, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before God to expiate the sins of the people.” Hebrews 2:17.

Jesus was tested, tempted, through his sufferings, as we also are tested, tempted > “He himself was tested through what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.” Hebrews 2:18. And also “We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15.

Just think! Jesus learned obedience … and only when he became perfect did he become the source of eternal salvation > “Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered … and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation.” Hebrews 5:8-9.

Jesus, being “the leader and perfecter of faith” did not have the Beatific Vision during his earthly life > “Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses … and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.” Hebrews 12:1.
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    You wrote, "Christ as the Son also seemed to be not only distinct but different from the Father..."  As the Eternal Son in the Trinity .. the Son is distinguished from the Father ONLY in the *Relationship* between Them .. and in no other way.  As the Eternal Son INCARNATED,  the human nature is both different and distinguished from the Father.
    Instead of saying that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit *share* the Divine Nature (which can be misleading), it is much better to say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit *ARE* the Divine Nature.   John   (continued in next immediate posting)

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[JohnJFarren]

**This is the second of two emails posted / this one immediately follows the first above --**JESUS, THE LEADER AND PERFECTER OF FAITH 19 April 2011 110419
Hello scameter … and all interested –
The gift of supernatural faith is just that, a pure gift. Here’s a little engagement with some of the people I bring Holy Communion to in the hospital. > "I have question for you. Now, no matter how you answer, you will be correct … because we just don’t know. You and I have just placed the dead body of Jesus in the tomb. With difficulty we have closed the heavy stone at the entrance. Now we’re going to go away … for two or three days, whatever. BUT … before we go we are going to place the world’s best motion picture camera pointed at the entrance. Now we go away. … In two or three days we return. Somebody moved that stone. We look around but see only the cloths that covered Jesus’ body neatly on the side. BUT … we have the camera … and we develop the film. In your opinion … what do you think we’ll see on that film? Most of the time (but not always) the person will say something like, “Probably a bright light … and Jesus rising up … all shining and glorious …” I say, you might be right. I don’t know. But I think – and I might be wrong – we’ll see nothing … except that big stone moving mysteriously to the side … and that’s all. But (I say) someone might say to me, “John, how can you say that? Something tremendous happened!” Yes, I say to him, something very great did happen … but it wasn’t the kind of thing you pick up on a camera. Usually they tend to agree.

     BUT, I say, *You* believe in the Resurrection.  *I* believe in the Resurrection.  But it isn't on the film!  WHY do you believe it?  WHY do I believe it?  Sometimes, even though almost everyone knows the answer, they can't put their finger on the word.  Oftentimes they can.  FAITH !  The gift of FAITH !  Exactly right.

   All the reasoning in the world, all the assembling of the many details in the several Resurrection gospel stories (with all their seeming conflictions), will never prove the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.  It is a pure gift from God, not given us because we're worthy, but rather because God is Loving, Wise, Merciful, Powerful .. and does good things God's way.

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   Now I'll close.  It's very good to share with you scameter .. and everyone else.
    Jesus and Mary Bless us especially during this Holy Week .. 
                                                       John   (JohnJFarren)   [email]Trinity5635@aol.com[/email]

 

[scameter18]

Sheadad:

The only thing I would like to add in number 3 is that he gives us the grace to recognize his offered goodness.

In a more fundamental way yes. But that is offered to every single person, and all are capable of recognizing it and following it. His grace is more of an aid in this process, especially once we recognize it and try to obey, keeping in mind that His grace does not overwhelm us but rather frees us to see and choose the good.

Sheadad:

By faith we believe that, however to reconcile with the order of temporal affairs, his intervention is surgically targeted in a manner that allows for the least disruption to natural order. So minimal in fact, that it becomes un-noticeable within our temporal framework.

I would agree with that yes. Furthering your point, through the eyes of faith, we can see God’s “un-noticeable” sustenance of all things, particularly the good, and thus give thanks for them, which is also, according to the Letter to the Romans, an intrinsic part of the first step of religiosity even for non-Christians, and the lack of which is apart of sin.

Sheadad:

Personal note; this notion of how minor miracles and work among the Angels really works seems to be right and fitting into the framework of the Gospel properly. This whole thread but the response to my post in particular, really helps me to grasp how and why he intervenes.

I’m glad we were able to help you. Thanks be to God.

JohnJFarren:

The Divine Intellect Knows all that is and all that could be. Jesus’ human intellect is both different and distinct from the Divine Intellect. When Jesus said that he did not know the exact time of Judgment Day, he was speaking of his human intellect, to which the Father had not revealed that knowledge.

Based on the Biblical quote you graciously supplied for me, this does not seem to be the case. Christ as “the Son” He does not know, not simply as Jesus the earthly human being. His Sonship is apart of His Divinity.

JohnJFarren:

Jesus, being “the leader and perfecter of faith” did not have the Beatific Vision during his earthly life

While I agree with the rest of your commented quotations, specifically regarding Christ’s spiritual growth as a human, I do not see how this comment matches with the quote you offered following it. St. Paul only said that Christ is the perfecter of faith; he didn’t comment on Christ’s possession of the Beatific Vision. However, I would agree that not until the Resurrection did Christ’s human nature attain the Beatific Vision for which we are all intended. This is more of a comment than a disputation.

JohnJFarren:

As the Eternal Son in the Trinity … the Son is distinguished from the Father ONLY in the Relationship between Them … and in no other way. As the Eternal Son INCARNATED, the human nature is both different and distinguished from the Father.

If the Persons are merely separate but identical aspects of God, then they have no individuality and thus no true personhood. Even though they are equal as God, they must be different within the Trinity to truly be individual persons. Their differentiation but equality and shared essence seems to be the concept expressed Biblically.

JohnJFarren:

Instead of saying that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the Divine Nature (which can be misleading), it is much better to say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ARE the Divine Nature.

While the Persons are the fullness of God, they are “of one essence”. I consider the Divine Nature to be their “species”, in a sense, of which they are the only members. In order for this “species” to be truly Divine, there must be no more or less than three Persons, in the manner they are. But the essence consists of their Divine attributes which they take part in in different ways.

I’ll make a second post too.

 

[scameter18]

JohnJFarren:

All the reasoning in the world, all the assembling of the many details in the several Resurrection gospel stories (with all their seeming conflictions), will never prove the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As a note to your section about the dialogue with one of your friend from the hospital, I think it’s important to note that our image of what exactly happened at the Resurrection is limited, but not random. It would have happened as God wished, and we cannot know because it hasn’t been revealed, whether we could understand it or not. As to this specific quoted point, while I believe that reason (according to the Catechism) aids faith, before and after its acquisition, but does not grant faith, reason is important, being a support and help for faith. To quote the Catechism:

“Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.” (37)

And:

"Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason… In faith, the human intellect and will co-operate with divine grace: “Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.” (154-155)

Thus, reason is involved with faith, but faith itself is a combined action of the grace of God and human acquiescent obedience.

JohnJFarren:

Now I’ll close. It’s very good to share with you scameter … and everyone else.

And you my friend. God bless.
Jesus and Mary Bless us especially during this Holy Week …

 

[JohnJFarren]

“Faith is the real–ization of things hoped for … 20 April 2011 110420
the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 11:1
Greetings scameter –
Yes, I agree. Faith and reason interact and are helpful to each other. Reason alone can never yield the supernatural, the truths of revelation. Faith alone would be non-reasonable, a foolishness. I find filled with meaning a phrase I have always treasured > GRACE BUILDS UPON NATURE**.**
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I quoted from **Hebrews** 11:1, “… persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the *leader* and perfecter *of faith*.”  I think of a “leader” as one who experientially knows those whom he leads.  I understand from this that as we are to “walk by faith,” so Jesus, in being our leader, walked by faith during his earthly life.

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Here I consider as related two of your statements --
“His Sonship is a part of His Divinity.”  “A *part* of …”?
“… there must be no more or less than three Persons …”  Why three, not two or four?  I agree that there must be Three Persons .. but, other than Revelation, why not two or four?

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What we have been sharing, scameter, has revolved about the truths of the Trinity and the Incarnation .. and their involvement with each other.  The *Hypostatic Union* of Divinity and humanity in Jesus Christ is the awe inspiring Reality of God’s Infinite Love for us.
How powerful is the *Communicatio Idiomatum*, the “communication of idioms” > WHATEVER CAN BE SAID OF THE HUMAN NATURE OF JESUS CHRIST CAN PROPERLY BE SAID OF THE SECOND  DIVINE PERSON OF THE TRINITY**.**

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scameter, it’s a joy to share these sacred things with a kindred spirit.  Every Blessing be yours.
	John   (JohnJFarren)   [email]Trinity5635@aol.com[/email]

 

[Sheadad]

And this is the speculative one, which I am still developing:

-Based on answer 3 above, I think that angels have a greater role in daily physical events than many suppose. Consider this verse: “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.” (Revelation 7:1 NIV) There are many other instances of angels having power over the earth in this book. While Revelation is often ignored, it is Biblical and very Catholic, and often more literal than supposed. It seems to me that God created existence, and then Satan and his demons began to try to destroy it. Angels then started combating against them, trying to restore the earth to its original state or to at least prevent destruction and chaos. And this seems to still be the case today. So, whenever something negative happens, it is a demon’s victory; but the good that comes from it, such as a forest fire bringing new life, or the occurance of good
in nature period, is enacted by angels.

Revelation and throughout the Bible eludes to many examples like this, however I wonder how much of the Angels intervention, initiated by God is meant for us to discern. In other words, I believe that the Angels’ role in our heritage may be somewhat diminished in scripture and specifically (not expanded upon), because our nature is to be facinated as man in the unknown thereby running the risk of emphasizing Angelic intervention instead of Christ as the “Lord of hosts”. I keep going back to when Christ was asked the question by the Apostles about the 18 that died, and in his response was a complete 180 towards repentance, I might have said “geez, come on, give me something Lord!”, just kidding.

In regards to the last sentence however, enacted is a great way of summarizing their role, as their assignments have been in accord with a directive of instituting or facilitating His plan. Any ideas otherwise?

Blessings, Shaun

Now, to keep in accord with note 3, angels are given power by God and throughout the Bible act as His intermediaries on the earth. So, when something good happens it is a miracle from God, worked through His angels. This is not a doctrine (to my knowledge), and my understanding of it is still lacking, but it is something to consider.

I hope I answered some of your questions. God bless.

 

[scameter18]

JohnJFarren:

Reason alone can never yield the supernatural, the truths of revelation. Faith alone would be non-reasonable, a foolishness.

While the reason people commonly use, biased and limited by sin, is inadequete to yield revelation, reason itself is capable, as reason derives from God. “Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God” But due to our sinful limitations, it requires an interior submission to God in order for reason to be raised to its natural purity. This submission and obedience is faith.

JohnJFarren:

I find filled with meaning a phrase I have always treasured > GRACE BUILDS UPON NATURE.

I agree. Grace transforms what was originally good, distorted by sin, into something even higher than its original state.

JohnJFarren:

I think of a “leader” as one who experientially knows those whom he leads. I understand from this that as we are to “walk by faith,” so Jesus, in being our leader, walked by faith during his earthly life.

Ah, I think I understand your point better now. As Incarnate, Christ’s perfectly-consistent faith caused growth in Himself and from this perfection of faith, He attained the Beatific Vision at His Resurrection. Thus He is the ultimate model of faith, and indeed, through His spiritually-universal Cross, He perfects our faith.

“A part of …”?

Yes. Being the Son is His relation to the other Persons, but He also has other characteristics which make Him Divine, sharing in the essential divinity of God. By the Persons sharing in this essence, together they fulfill the requirements of divine perfection, e.g. omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. So that even if the Son does not know all things, the Father, equally God, does. And just as the Father and Spirit were not incarnate, only the Son, the requirement of divinity to love to the very end by giving salvation to humanity and opening up the Beatific Vision was fulfilled by the Son, and thus God.

JohnJFarren:

Why three, not two or four? I agree that there must be Three Persons … but, other than Revelation, why not two or four?

Rationally, and proven by examples from nature and especially from Jewish numerology, three is the most perfect number, complete and lacking nothing. One is solitary; two is complimentary, but exclusively focused on one another - but three enables all parts to reside together in perfect union, while also expressing themselves outward. It is fullness plus one. More than three would be either a repitition of two, or as if God required more of Himself, as in polytheism, thus limiting His power and Divinity. Nothing more or less could be Divine than precisely Three.

JohnJFarren:

The Hypostatic Union of Divinity and humanity in Jesus Christ is the awe inspiring Reality of God’s Infinite Love for us.
How powerful is the Communicatio Idiomatum, the “communication of idioms” > WHATEVER CAN BE SAID OF THE HUMAN NATURE OF JESUS CHRIST CAN PROPERLY BE SAID OF THE SECOND DIVINE PERSON OF THE TRINITY.

Absolutely. The entire life, death and resurrection of Christ are an inevitable and necessary affirmation of God’s love and ultimately His Divinity. Indeed, the attributes of the three Persons are all united in the life of Jesus, within which all three took part, for the first time clearly expressing the Triune Nature of God. This is the most unique and truest conception of God humanity has ever had, precisely because it came from God rather than ourselves. It is a mystery beyond our origination.

JohnJFarren:

scameter, it’s a joy to share these sacred things with a kindred spirit. Every Blessing be yours.

Absolutely my friend, you as well. God bless.

 

[scameter18]

Sheadad:

In other words, I believe that the Angels’ role in our heritage may be somewhat diminished in scripture and specifically (not expanded upon), because our nature is to be facinated as man in the unknown thereby running the risk of emphasizing Angelic intervention instead of Christ as the “Lord of hosts”.

Definitely. The sense of mystery is intrinsic to the Christian life, and God sustains this mystery to prevent pride and straying from the truth, as you have said. Your note of Christ’s supremacy to angels was also stated in the Letter to the Hebrews, and so naturally is very true.

Sheadad:

I keep going back to when Christ was asked the question by the Apostles about the 18 that died, and in his response was a complete 180 towards repentance, I might have said “geez, come on, give me something Lord!”, just kidding.

While reading the Scriptures exegetically we must always keep in mind that nothing in it, even the order of events and statements, is random. The writers, guided and inspired by God, sequenced them historically but also to illustrate spiritual truths. Here, I believe Christ is emphasizing that without repentance, death is king; but if we repent, death becomes only a pathway to eternal life.

Sheadad:

In regards to the last sentence however, enacted is a great way of summarizing their role, as their assignments have been in accord with a directive of instituting or facilitating His plan. Any ideas otherwise?

While everything angels do is according to the Will of God, they are also free agents with the same type of freedom as we have. Hence why Satan and demons were able to Fall. I think angels constantly work to implement the plan of God, as you said, but I think God does not control them or necessarily always direct them. Their intelligence is superior to ours, and so they are able to remember His plan and work towards its accomplishment properly in all situations. Of course, demons are also intelligent and knows this plan, so they perversely work against angels in trying to corrupt Creation against God. Christ will have the victory in the end, however, and angels are an intrinsic part of this, as can be seen in Revelation.

 

[JohnJFarren]

PRAISE BE TO THE RISEN JESUS CHRIST 23 April 2011 110423
Warm Easter Vigil Blessing to you, scameter –
Before I begin my posting I express to you only my warmest regard and respect and loving Easter wishes.

I must take exception to several positions you expressed in your posting. You wrote, “Being the Son is His relation to the other Persons.” Being the Son is the Second Person’s relation to the Father only. The Son is not so related to the Holy Spirt.

You wrote, “…even if the Son [meaning the Son in His Divine Nature] does not know all things, the Father … does.” I’ll simply state that the Son as God has and Is the Very Same One Knowing as the Father Is. All that the Father Knows IS the very same Knowing as IS the Son. I’m going to let it go at that.

In your posting you stated, “…the requirement of divinity to love to the very end by giving salvation to humanity and opening up the Beatific Vision …” The Trinity, Divinity, is absolutely under no requirement to create anything. Creation is a totally free choice Act of God. Finite being might never have existed. The Infinite Love the Trinity Is … is infinitely fulfilled in the Processions in the Trinity. Here also, scameter, I think it would be wise of me to round off my engaging further in this point.

And finally you wrote, “The entire life, death and resurrection of Christ are an inevitable and necessary affirmation of God’s love and ultimately His Divinity.” Here the words “inevitable and necessary” make the statement false. The very Incarnation (and life, death and resurrection of Christ) are in no way either inevitable or necessary that God’s Love and His Divinity be affirmed. The Incarnation was chosen freely to happen. In no way was it inevitable. All Infinite Being and Perfection are infinitely present and infinitely fulfilled in the Eternal Trinity Itself.

scameter, I truly don’t want to be so disagreeing but I have no choice within myself. In all our communing I want nothing but Divine-human Love in our exchanges. I’m not sure if it is wise for my further involvement in these Trinity matters. Yes … no … I do not know.

This, however, I do know > A most Blessed and Happy Easter to you and your loved ones. Praise be to the Risen Jesus Christ! John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com

 

[scameter18]

Warm Easter Vigil Blessing to you, scameter –
Before I begin my posting I express to you only my warmest regard and respect and loving Easter wishes.

And to you my friend. I attended my first Easter Vigil service ever and it was wonderful, a truly joyous occasion, especially since we witnessed the Confirmation fo three adult converts.

You wrote, “Being the Son is His relation to the other Persons.” Being the Son is the Second Person’s relation to the Father only. The Son is not so related to the Holy Spirt.

I’m sorry for the confusion here, I think I mixed up my words. I did not mean to say that Christ is the Son of the Spirit. I meant only that within the Trinity, Christ is the Son, and being the Son is His interpersonal relationship within the Trinity, like His Divine name. For example, if a father had a son, and that son then had a daughter, the son would be “the son” - not the son of his own daughter, but he would still be considered “the son” within that relationship. And in the Trinity, the Spirit is the love between the Father and Son, though with His own personality, and so He is in a sense apart from the specific relationship of Father and Son as parent-child.

scameter, I truly don’t want to be so disagreeing but I have no choice within myself. In all our communing I want nothing but Divine-human Love in our exchanges. I’m not sure if it is wise for my further involvement in these Trinity matters. Yes … no … I do not know.

Some topics are better left undebated. I would only like to clarify one issue, on my part, without any obligation to reply on your part: by “inevitable and necessary”, I did not mean God was mechanically determined or forced to do certain things. I meant that God is Divine because of certain characteristics He has - without those traits, He would not be Divine. I believe part of these characteristics is to affirm His Divinity in different ways. One of these is to be a Trinity; another is to Create; and yet another is the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ unto our salvation. All of these affirm His Divinity. As I have said, God is beyond time; the story of Creation has already begun and ended for God. So I believe that to be truly and fully Divine, the acts of love which God performed by creating the universe and humanity as we are, allowing sin and free will, humbling Himself through the Incarnation and bringing salvation, the pathway to a level of perfection beyond even that of Eden, His Divinity is made complete. Again, no obligation is on you to respond to this. I simply wished to inform you of my position to avoid lack of clarity in disagreement.

This, however, I do know > A most Blessed and Happy Easter to you and your loved ones. Praise be to the Risen Jesus Christ! John

As it seems our discussion has come to an end, since we finished addressing the initial Providence issues of this topic long ago, I want to thank you for this very enjoyable exchange. It reminds me how much I enjoy such things, and it helped me greatly in my understanding of certain topics. I wish you a joyous Easter and all the best in your life. May God bless you always, and may the Blessed Virgin and St. Thomas Aquinas intercede for my prayer.

Kaleb