Divine Sanction for Killing Innocents in Old Testament

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Sorry, I know this has been discussed before but I never really gave it serious thought until today. I was thinking about how the Pope has reassured us, in light of the recent controversy over his comments on Islam, that God will never act in a manner opposed to certain tenets of reason, among those that He will never sanction the murder of innocent people, as opposed to the radical jihadist Muslim belief in killing “infidels,” no matter how innocent those people actually are. I’ll be honest with you guys, I’m having a real hard time with my faith due to certain portions of the Old Testament in which it seems God commanded or at least condoned the Israelites’ killing of innocent people during wars. One of these instances would be in the book of Joshua, chapter 6, describing the fall of Jericho, in which the Israelites killed everbody, male and female, young and old. Then describing another conquest in chapter 8, verse 2, God commands Joshua, “Do to Ai and its king what you did to Jericho and its King.” I’ve also heard that in 1 Samuel God ordered more indiscriminate killing (including infants), and then there was the seige of Canaan (I know the Canaanites were sinning very seriously so some of them definitely deserved it, but weren’t there a lot of innocent women and children killed too? Obviously, the reason all this is hard for me to reconcile with my faith is the fact of Catholic teaching that the killing of innocents is never justified no matter the reason, most notably the Church’s absolute opposition to abortion in any circumstance, which I heartily agree with. I guess I’m wondering, did the morality regarding killing change with the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant?
 
Has it ever occurred to you that what is recorded in the OT parts like this may not accurately reflect what God told them to do but that possibly the message got “enhanced” (or whatever) by the messengers that delivered it to the people of God?

On the one hand, you have Almighty God conveying His will to human beings, and on the other you have humans who are notoriously bad about communication, regardless of the original source.

Ever play “Gossip” with a half dozen people? How often does the ending statement exactly duplicate the beginning one? Not often, right?

Now magnify that scenario using God whose very presence scares the living daylights out of humans and you can imagine the result.

My own opinion, (and this is all it is, and I admit I may be wrong.) is that this is what happened, and the result was that the Israelites exceeded what God had instructed them to do.

As the old song says, “For What It’s Worth.”
 
I hope you’re right CM. Otherwise this may end up being pretty hard to explain. My concern with this explanation is, if these parts of the OT were innaccurate in that God didn’t actually order the deaths of innocents, is that in violation of the Church’s teachings on the divine inspiration of scripture?
 
At the EWTN Q&A forums, a similar question was posed to Fr. Echert the scripture scholar, who replied:
God is not accountable to us with regards to His determinations of life and death, and the application of His mercy and justice. If there were innocents who died in the war ban, then they are likely in heaven or a paradise of some sort for eternity. Tell me, how do you reconcile the fact that God could stop all sorts of terrible things, like child murder, rape, airplane crashes, raing fires that burn people to death, and so on, yet allows all these folks to suffer and die in such terrible ways? And if your approach to the OT is that the Jews attributed to God what they themselves determined, it does not say much about the Jews and it says even less about God, who would allow such things to be falsely attributed to Him in His own inspired Word.
 
At the EWTN Q&A forums, a similar question was posed to Fr. Echert the scripture scholar, who replied:
Does that mean we should attribute those passages of scripture where God commanded the killing of all, young and old, male and female, even infants ( 1 Samuel 2:2-3) as just that? Direct commands from God to kill the innocent, even infants? And we’re not supposed to be troubled by that?
 
As the author of life God has the legitimate right to take whatever lives he decides, guilty or innocent. He may use human beings as his instruments in this, as he did in the OT, however human beings do not have the right to make such decisions and take innocent lives as they do in abortion and as it is starting to shape up even use capital punishment of the guilty under most circumstances.
 
As the author of life God has the legitimate right to take whatever lives he decides, guilty or innocent. He may use human beings as his instruments in this, as he did in the OT, however human beings do not have the right to make such decisions and take innocent lives as they do in abortion and as it is starting to shape up even use capital punishment of the guilty under most circumstances.
I agree that God is the author of life and that He has the right to take whatever lives He decides to, and I see that as a valid explanation in events like hurricanes or plane crashes or other disasters like these, but my problem in seeing this as a good explanation for these parts of the OT is that it means God commanded men to violate the very moral principles He instilled in them. It just doesn’t seem morally comparable at all to when He allows/uses natural events to bring about death, in which no one makes a conscious choice to kill other people.
 
Such incidents concern the economy of Salvation. By that is meant that God reveals Himself gradually to His people according to what they can handle at the time, until the Fullness of Time when He reveals Himself in His Son Incarnate.

After the sin of our First Parents, the human race was left with natural law and Angels to guide it. God’s solution was not to deal with the whole human race personally, but to choose an obscure and unimportant and motley race of Semites and reveals Himself to them first, bringing about the Incarnation of His Son from them, and through His Church to reach the whole human race. As Chesterton wrote, “How odd of God to choose the Jews,” since they didn’t learn very well.

God’s main point of instructing the Israelites first was to impress upon them that He alone was God and was to be loved and obeyed first and above all. But they were a very earthy and stubborn race and learned this lesson with difficulty (in fact, did not really get the point until the destruction of Jerusalem and the Exile).

By obedience to His will they would learn that God personally chose them from among the nations (the rest had only guardian angels over them, but the Hebrews had Yahweh Himself) and that He would bless them if they followed His will. Their entrance into and possession of the Land of Promise and victory over the inhabitants already there would therefore be understood to have been the result of God’s initiative and gift to them and not the result of their own doing or cleverness in politics and war. All other understandings of the value of life would have to be put on hold until they “got” the primary message. The Prophets would serve in doing that later until Our Lord reveals the full understanding.

Some other points:
  1. God is the Lord of Life and History and has the right to take life since He gave it; others don’t have that right, but He does, always has.
  2. Although He did not intend death (it comes as a result of Original Sin, which He permits), He inflicts it or permits it to further His Plan of Salvation for all and each.
  3. This reveals that death is not the greatest evil, but sin is.
  4. It also reveals that God inflicts or permits it, for a higher purpose or greater good – which comes out later, and is supernatural.
  5. When He orders such events, God, of course, eternally knows His Plan of Redemption in His Son. It is in view of that that the innocent who are killed by the Israelites will be saved.
 
I really wonder about the Old Testament sometimes. It seems like the Jews were really alot like Muslims and thought God was only on their team. There’s some pretty weird stuff in there and penalties of being stoned to death for having sex outside of marraige, etc. It makes me wonder. I wonder why Jesus never straightened it all out while he was here? Afterall, alot of those old laws were not being used any more when he came.
 
What I’m saying is that the trouble, for me, with viewing these parts of the OT as God “using human beings as His instruments” in taking innocent lives is that human beings aren’t unthinking instruments. God would command these men to violate the 6th Commandment, while doing so probably went violently against their entire sense of virtuous moral conduct? It just seems like its in complete contradiction to Catholic moral teaching that God never sanctions the deaths of innocents, and it doesn’t seem that much different from the radical Muslims’ justifications for their acts of terrorist violence, claiming its God’s will that they kill “infidels.”
 
My view as a non-believer is that the story in Samuel is merely another example of a people claiming religious justification for their acts of inhumanity. The only difference between this story and 9/11 is the level of technology.

It was, among other things, contradictions like this, and the mental gymnastics required to rationalize them within the framework of a “loving God” that led me to leave theism.

The fact is, it is much more probable that the Jews were just like any other ancient people who found themselves in difficult circumstances and looked to justify their actions with the stamp of divine approval. Why is it more probable? Because we see it happen everyday in current events. It’s what humans have done for centuries.

Of course, I realize that as a non-believer I am swimming against the current of approved wisdom here. But it’s nice to hear alternative ideas, even if only to hold them up to ridicule.
 
Has it ever occurred to you that what is recorded in the OT parts like this may not accurately reflect what God told them to do but that possibly the message got “enhanced” (or whatever) by the messengers that delivered it to the people of God?
:confused:

You’re saying that the Bible is not the inerrant, infallible word of God, inspired directly by the Holy Spirit? This is a clear heresy in the Catholic faith.

Catholics believe that the Bible is authored by God through human writers with the gift of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. With God as its author, the scripture is without error.
 
:confused:

You’re saying that the Bible is not the inerrant, infallible word of God, inspired directly by the Holy Spirit?

I don’t know what religion you are, but that is a clear heresy in the Catholic faith.

Catholics believe that the Bible is authored by God through human writers with the gift of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. With God as its author, the scripture is without error.
 
My view as a non-believer is that the story in Samuel is merely another example of a people claiming religious justification for their acts of inhumanity. The only difference between this story and 9/11 is the level of technology.

It was, among other things, contradictions like this, and the mental gymnastics required to rationalize them within the framework of a “loving God” that led me to leave theism.

The fact is, it is much more probable that the Jews were just like any other ancient people who found themselves in difficult circumstances and looked to justify their actions with the stamp of divine approval. Why is it more probable? Because we see it happen everyday in current events. It’s what humans have done for centuries.

Of course, I realize that as a non-believer I am swimming against the current of approved wisdom here. But it’s nice to hear alternative ideas, even if only to hold them up to ridicule.
It does kind of make sense, I have to admit.
 
Be careful. You don’t want to caught agreeing with a non-believer! 😃
I would hope that the people here would be kind and gentle with a non-believer, rather than unkind.

I think the OP of this thread makes a very good point that’s worth exploring and trying to explain it away by saying that the OT writers were playing a scriptural form of the childs game TELEPHONE, isn’t very convincing. That’s what we called that game where I grew up.
 
I’m not so sure you have your moral compass straight when it comes to this question: what makes a particular killing wrong?

If ending the earthly life is always the summum malum (greatest evil), then I would have to agree that we should be morally troubled by God’s command to kill people. God would have commanded the worst possible act, and that is not the act of a God who is Good. In fact, since God takes all earthly life at some point we should be just as troubled by that alone, without the need for the OT.

But is ending someone’s earthly life really the summum malum?

Well for us it may very well be, but that’s only because we have taken that to which we do not have “rights”. In fact, we have taken all from another and have deprived him of same without the Natural Law ability to do so.

An analogous example might be stealing someone’s car - we do not have rights to it, and therefore it is morally wrong. This would be different, however, if we were reclaiming our car from someone who stole it from us – we have a legitimate claim of right to it, and are now exercising that right. The act is the same – you’ve taken a car from someone – but one act is morally justifiable an the other is not. If you see what makes the difference, you’ll start to get a hint of what follows.

Here, it would likewise seem that unless we have a Natural Law ability to kill and take all from another, it is “murder” – *with *a Natural Law ability to do so, the killing is a morally justifiable – which is the case in self-defense or defense of another (which perhaps even justifies a “Just War”). It is morally different than cold-blooded killing, and every society of which I’m aware acknowledges this. But is this all? No it is not.

What about stoning to death as a punishment for crime X? The ability to kill for violations of a particular law, like the Levitical Law, is at least justifiable as long as there is no lesser means of accomplishing the same end – like having a serial rapist/murder loose in a tribal village in C4th B.C…no federal penitentiaries around and no other means available which can assure safety of the tribe. Crimes against God (who is Holy and the source of all Fatherhood) are more morally significant than crimes against people or property, so you might now see the reason why crime A is punished more severely than crime B in the Old Testament whereas you may not have seen the logic before.

So there’s not really a moral problem there, as long as you’re actually thinking about things. I can give you much more on this point if you so desire, but I am hopeful you already get the point of the preceding paragraph – it’s not *always *wrong to kill for violations of the law. Good. Now we’re getting somewhere, as we now know that at the very least killing is not the summum malum.

So it seems that the ability to kill morally is based on the rights which we possess, as derived from Natural Law or perhaps rights as given by God (which are the same in effect, though not in principle – one is anthropocentric while the other is theocentric). So then the question becomes whether or not *God *has a “right” to each individual’s life? It would seem so, as our lives (each and every moment) are a gift from God – we have no claim of “right” to our lives against Him. He made us, he sustains us, we are His. He make give or take life as He desires, since He is the source of all life.

When we “murder” we deprive God of this right to give and take life, which is a right inherent in Himself by His nature as the author of life. This is why “murder” is a sin. If God chooses to use us as instruments to give and take life, we have not deprived God of His rights and therefore this is not sinful. To state it bluntly, if God commands it, there’s no problem.

You might also keep in mind that God is just, and will not deprive without either (1) just reason or (2) more-than-just recompense. If this is the case, again there’s no moral problem – just moral short-sightedness.

Does that make sense?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
No expertise here…just pointing that out first hand. The Old Testament (OT) prepared the way for the New Testament(NT). Persons and events in the OT prefigured, foreshadowed, anticipated, and symbolized persons and events in the NT. According to an ancient Christian saying: “the NT lies hidden in the Old and the Old testament is unveiled in the new”(catechism of the Catholic church, n. 129) To fully understand the OT we must read it in terms of types. The OT persons and events are called “types” of the NT persons and events they prefigure. A type is a prophetic foreshadowing of its NT counterpart. The CCC has a brief but excellent section on OT types in numbers 128-130.

**The unity of the Old and New Testaments **

128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,[104] and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God’s works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.
129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself.[105] Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.[106] As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.[107] 130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfilment of the divine plan when “God [will] be everything to everyone.”[108] Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God’s plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages
 
Also the Commandment in question and the Natural law actually prohibit murders, not killing per se as we translate it into english.
 
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