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skeptictank
Guest
I’m wondering how you as catholics take this section of the catechism.
God Bless,
Skeptictank
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God Bless,
Skeptictank
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thistle
Guest
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Tomster
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FCEGM
Guest
St. John writes in his first epistle, “Behold what manner of charity the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called and should be the sons of God.” We have been re-created through the Holy Spirit in Baptism, born from above (a more accurate phrase than “born again”) and now share in the life of God, becoming God-like by grace – His free gift of Himself, this gift won for us by the Life, Death and Resurrection of Our Savior.
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Sixtus
Guest
We have become re-created through baptism, so that we are Sons and daughters of God. But we are not ‘gods’. There is but ONE God.
He remains the uncreated omnipotent ‘all in all’ Diety that He always was. We remain mere creatures. We ARE and ALWAYS WILL BE subordinate to Him and rightly so
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FCEGM
Guest
Yes and no. We do not remain mere creatures; we are elevated by grace to the status of sons and daughters. Through baptism into Christ there is an ontological change in our identity.We have become re-created through baptism, so that we are Sons and daughters of God. But we are not ‘gods’. There is but ONE God.
He remains the uncreated omnipotent ‘all in all’ Diety that He always was. We remain mere creatures. We ARE and ALWAYS WILL BE subordinate to Him and rightly so
The OP’s excerpt from the Catechism includes quotes from 1) St. Irenaeus, 2) St. Athanasius, and 3) St. Thomas Aquinas. Thus the Church is reiterating her constant teaching on the reality and the depth of our transformation in Christ. The Church is putting before the faithul the depth (and height) of our transformation in Christ. (See also the writings of such as St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. Basil the Great, and St. Gregory Palamas, to name a few.)
A term more often found in Eastern Christianity (both Catholic and Orthodox) is theosis, deification. This word expresses the absolute transformation of oneself through the soul’s participation in God’s Divine Nature. This is not something we of ourselves have, but can only receive by grace initiated in Baptism and grown through fidelity to the sacramental life of the Church. Through theosis we take part in the life of the Most Holy Trinity; we become truly united (not just de jure, but de facto) in the Divine Life which the Divine Persons alone have by their Nature.
St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church, writes profoundly about what the Catechism expresses of the doctrine:
Also from the Catechism:
(So it’s not just a nice sentimentality that St. Paul expresses in Galatians 2:20: "I live, now not I, but Christ lives in me.”)
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jemfinch
Guest
How do I take it? At face value. It’s Scriptural. Besides, no one will enter heaven that isn’t as righteous as God is.
Jeremy
Jeremy
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Sixtus
Guest
Dear FCEGM
I have no problems with your contribution above. It was very informative.
What I have problems with is the contributor who said that ‘we become gods’!
My response to that is: 'NO NO NO NEVER!!
Even if that were possible, I have no wish to become a god.
There is but ONE God. He is the infinite almighty. The Triunity. We will not become as satan tried to say in the garden.
St Paul also told us that what we are to be in the future has not yet been revealed. That is very promising. But we must not expect to become a diety. That is the sole province of Almighty God
I have no problems with your contribution above. It was very informative.
What I have problems with is the contributor who said that ‘we become gods’!
My response to that is: 'NO NO NO NEVER!!
Even if that were possible, I have no wish to become a god.
There is but ONE God. He is the infinite almighty. The Triunity. We will not become as satan tried to say in the garden.
St Paul also told us that what we are to be in the future has not yet been revealed. That is very promising. But we must not expect to become a diety. That is the sole province of Almighty God
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skeptictank
Guest
The contributor who said that we become god is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Technically satan said that adam and eve would become like god through disobediance, so if we do “become god” he’s still a liar.
I’m really having trouble with this. I also have trouble with the eucharist. I keep wanting to alegorize it, yet there seem to be things in the bible that point to a literal eating of flesh and blood.
I can’t accept it conclusively though, because it seems that when our lord said “this is my body… this is my blood” there is a great deal of room for alegory. He said this of the “passover feast”. And it was stated in exodus that-
"Exd 12:27 That ye shall say, It [is] the sacrifice of the LORD’S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped. "
Were they literally eating the flesh and blood of the lord?
Skeptictank
I’m really having trouble with this. I also have trouble with the eucharist. I keep wanting to alegorize it, yet there seem to be things in the bible that point to a literal eating of flesh and blood.
I can’t accept it conclusively though, because it seems that when our lord said “this is my body… this is my blood” there is a great deal of room for alegory. He said this of the “passover feast”. And it was stated in exodus that-
"Exd 12:27 That ye shall say, It [is] the sacrifice of the LORD’S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped. "
Were they literally eating the flesh and blood of the lord?
Skeptictank
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Sixtus
Guest
Some critics of the CC say that Jesus said ‘I am the true vine’ but He was not saying He was a plant. But when He taught that He was the ‘true bread which come down from heaven’ A large following of His disciples walked with Him no longer. They said ‘how can this man give us His flesh to eat’?
Now the Lord could have said ‘not come on guys, I didn’t mean it to be taken seriously’. But He did not, in fact the very opposite: He called after them ‘I tell you in truth, in very truth… Now that doesn’t sound like an allegory to me!. unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you will have no life in you’
He by saying ‘I tell you in truth in very truth’ could not make it more plainer
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Nicene
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Bishopite
Guest
I agree and you are correct, Heb 12:14. And not to sound rude, nor arrogant but I’m not so sure I’d say “no one will enter heaven that isn’t as righteous as God is” for He is all righteous and Holy and I don’t think anyone anywhere is as righteous as God, but what do I know?
Sure we will be perfectly without sin in heaven but our glory won’t be as is that of God just reflective of His glory, much like the moon reflects the glorious rays of the sun.
I’m sure you are aware that Catholicism does NOT teach that we will become “Gods” like Mormonism, that’s heresy. Perhaps what “partakers of His divine nature” 2 Peter 1:4 means is, when God justifies us we actually become holy within and become more holy as we cooperate with His grace. We aren’t just strictly covered by Gods grace in a forensic juridical way (imputed righteousness), as Martin Luther proposed for God isn’t strictly a judge, He is moreover a Father with sons and daughters who are part of His new covenant.
Justification in Catholicism is much like a glass of water. The water being God’s grace and we are the glass. As we cooperate (1 Cor 3:9,2 Cor 6:1) with God He gives us more grace (water) and fills us up (infused grace) so that if we continue to “grow in grace” as 2 Peter 3:18 says, we continue to be “filled with grace” and one day all of the justified will be glasses filled with grace in heaven like was the blessed virgin Mary…“filled with grace” (Luke 1:28) who was given this beforehand as a fitting vessel to hold the incarnate Son of God. Ok I’m rambling…sorry
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jemfinch
Guest
I was thinking more of the epistle of Peter that Nicene quoted.
Not now. But we will be. God’s righteousness demands it.And not to sound rude, nor arrogant but I’m not so sure I’d say “no one will enter heaven that isn’t as righteous as God is” for He is all righteous and Holy and I don’t think anyone anywhere is as righteous as God, but what do I know?
Think of it this way: We will be as righteous in heaven as God’s righteousness demands that we be. God’s righteousness can accept no unrighteousness, so we will have no unrighteousness in us, and therefore will be perfectly righteous, as God is perfectly righteous. This is also biblical: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
Jeremy
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Nicene
Guest
Christ is righteous before God. We partake of the divine nature (2 Pet:1:3-4), We are his body, the church, his flesh and blood (Eph 2:30-32). Through Christ we are made righteous before God being his flesh and blood in reality and being lifted up to his divine nature.
We are not made righteous of our own accord, but we are to grow in Holiness:
1 Pet 2:14: As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
15: but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct;
16: since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
Mt 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
We are not made righteous of our own accord, but we are to grow in Holiness:
1 Pet 2:14: As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
15: but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct;
16: since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
Mt 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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FCEGM
Guest
skeptictank (and Sixtus),
The temptation of Adam and Eve was to “become gods” without conformity to God; this temptation to “go it on our own” is overthrown in Christ Who now offers us, through our obedience, not to become “gods” on our own, but to participate in His own Divine Nature that IS His has by Nature. He invites us to participate in that Nature by grace.
God wants us to be even more closely united to Him than as Creator and creature. He wants to relate to us as Father to child. The possibility for this deeper relationship is founded first in the creation of the first Man and Woman who walked in friendship with God, but then lost all that would have been theirs through that sin of disobedience; the second, New and ultimate foundation now is the re-creation of Man in the Life, Death and Resurrection of His Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ.
Just looking briefly at the Lord’s words to Saul, we see Him saying, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?” Such is His identity with those incorporated into Him. It’s important to have a deep sense of Christ’s indwelling in His Body, the Church, and in each member of that Body. If you can come to see this, then you will also see why the truth of the Eucharist is so because Christ is building up His Body through intimacy with all that He is in spirit, mind AND Body.
This is what the Fathers of the Church and the Saints who have written on the spiritual life have recognized, and why their (and the Catechism’s) right understanding of the use of “gods” as an appellation for those in Christ is a firmly God-centered one. A book (actually a two-part edition) that would help you also come to this recognition of the depth of our intimacy God is Fr. John G. Arintero, O.P.’s, The Mystical Evolution in the Development and Vitality of the Church, TAN Books.
Lastly, this article regarding Theosis would be worth your reading also:
bringyou.to/apologetics/a124.htm
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Bishopite
Guest
That’s a good point. I suppose we would be as righteous as heaven allows, but I’ll have to think about whether we will be as righteous as God, for we will share in His righteousness whether to the same degree, I don’t know. We are infused with His righteousness so your assertion does seem to make sense to some degree.
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Ghosty
Guest
Just think of it like this: we will share in the degree of Righteousness that God has, but by participation rather than by our own intrinsic nature. The difference is quite important.That’s a good point. I suppose we would be as righteous as heaven allows, but I’ll have to think about whether we will be as righteous as God, for we will share in His righteousness whether to the same degree, I don’t know. We are infused with His righteousness so your assertion does seem to make sense to some degree.
Imagine a piece of metal held in a fire. It can become as hot as the fire, and glow as brightly as the fire, but it will never become fire in its essence, but will remain metal. To preserve the uniqueness of God, all that is needed is to maintain this difference; creating a distinction of degree isn’t really necessary. God is the Source of Holiness, we are the receivers of it.
That being said, some more perfectly conform to God than others, but even this has less to do with “degree” as it does with a kind of quantity; a small glass and a large glass contain different quantities of water, but hold the same “degree” of water (the water is identical in each).
Hope that helps!
Peace and God bless!
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Skeptic,
This: newadvent.org/cathen/02364a.htm is what I think of the Catechism passage.
The frailty of the human language to communicate philosophical/theological ideas is apparent in the wording of this passage (which is why the Church continuesto use Latin as its official language). It needs to be explained in the realities of the constant teaching of the Church, of which the Beatific Vision is part of our most Apostolic Tradition.
St Cyprian of Carthage:
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Ghosty
Guest
While the Beatific Vision is certainly part of it, it’s not the whole of it. First, because we become partakers in this life, and secondly because Glorification is a direct part of partaking of the Divine Nature, and itself does not fall under the heading of the Beatific Vision except incidently.
For example, St. Thomas Aquinas, when speaking of the Theological Virtue of Charity in the Summa Theologica (newadvent.org/summa/3023.htm), says:
So when we love a neighbor with infused Charity, we are literally loving them with God’s own power of Love.
St. John of the Cross (post-Trent) writes in “Ascent of Mount Carmel”(catholictreasury.info/Ascent/asc21.htm):
Strictly speaking, the Beatific Vision is the aspect of Divine Sonship where God Himself directly informs the mind without end, creating perfect and never-ending Happiness (and which only occurs in Heaven). This teaching of Divine Sonship, or participating in the Divine Nature, is very central to the Catholic theology of infused Grace, as opposed to imputed Grace taught by certain Protestants; it was perhaps the primary theological difference between the Reformers and the Catholic Church.
Peace and God bless!
B
Bishopite
Guest
Yes, well said. I agree with you and your analogy and I see the connection. Earlier I used the example of the moon as its rays reflect the sun and even gathers heat and light from the sun which woulb be the same thing. Quantity is the word I was thinking of, thank you for saying that word. Yes participation seems to be a “partaking” of His divine nature…and what we are partaking is the actual substance of Gods righteousness just like when we partake of the Eucharist we are partaking in the actual substance of Jesus’ body.
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