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davidv
Guest
So, what does He mean when He says “I AM”?
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Vouthon
Guest
No, he claims to have pre-existed Abraham, a mortal man. The Orthodox mystic claims to have become God, Jesus claimed to have been God from all eternity. This is the very purpose of the Christology of the Fourth Gospel. It begins, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God…all things came into being through him…he became man and dwelt among us” as Jesus. Then the Prologue states, “He came to what was his own, and his own people did not accept him. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God”. This “rebirth”, in which by grace the baptized Christian becomes what Jesus was by nature (God), is the very basis of deification and this passage of scripture that we are discussing plays out the very scenario mentioned in the prologue whereby the Judaen crowd, “his own people”, “reject him”.
Thus Saint Catherine said in a different place:
Jesus who is God by nature and from all eternity became man, to enable mankind to ascend to God by grace. Catherine then declares: I want this!
And through the grace of Christ she is raised to that state even though she is a mortal human being
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Counterpoint
Guest
If you believe Jesus is actually saying “I am God and the rest of you are not,” then why does he reject the charge of blasphemy?
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Vouthon
Guest
He is not saying, “I am God and the rest of you are not”, He is identifying himself with the unspeakable Essence of God, the Divine Name (I Am who Am) and using scripture to show the crowd that ordinary people can even be declared to be “gods” in a lesser secondary sense, which makes their protestations against him seem fulsome.
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Counterpoint
Guest
Jesus: “I and the Father are one.” John 10:30 (Your Orthodox mystic said: “My self is God.”)
“The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.” John 10:31
Jesus: “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” John 10:32
The Jews: “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” John 10:33
Question: Why are the Jews about to stone him?
Answer: for BLASPHEMY
Question: What is the blasphemy?
Answer: They have interpreted Jesus’ words “I and the Father are one” to mean that Jesus is claiming to be God.
Question: Does Jesus plead guilty to the charge of blasphemy? Does he say…“it is true…I AM GOD?”
Answer: NO!
Jesus: “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?” John 10:35-36
Question: Who are the “gods” in this context?
Answer: Jesus and all other human beings.
To argue otherwise is to argue that the Jews were fully justified in their attempt to stone Jesus (and to actually crucify him)…because Jesus…being a man…was claiming to be God and therefore guilty of blasphemy (according to OT law). You can’t have it both ways!
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Vouthon
Guest
A commentary on the Greek of this verse:
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Vouthon
Guest
No, they were not justified because he was not a man claiming to be God but rather God having becoming man. The Prologue to the Gospel explains this much. It is the point of the Christology and soteriology of the text.
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annem
Guest
Counterpoint
The specific quote certainly captures the pantheism the author espoused. Schucman, the author, heard voices. Jesus, to be specific, and it was Jesus who told her to write the course. Not that Jesus claimed to be the one true God. No, we are all God! or perhaps god! was actually her take on it.
She took the occult idea 20th century idea that we all have a spark of god within us. So since we are all god all we need to do is pay our hundreds of dollars to take the course and we can learn how to perform miracles.
Here’s what I would like to know. What has this god/universe/blob been doing for the last three thousand years that’s caused millions and millions to live in wretched poverty, starve to death, die in writhing agony due to the communists, or Mongols, etc. Really, what?
For pity’s sake, why hasn’t the universe/god/whatever mentioned this stuff about how we are all divine before?
Hoping you can enlighten me,
And may God truly flood you with light, Annem
Hi, you apparently are a believer in a course in miracles, since you quote from it.
The specific quote certainly captures the pantheism the author espoused. Schucman, the author, heard voices. Jesus, to be specific, and it was Jesus who told her to write the course. Not that Jesus claimed to be the one true God. No, we are all God! or perhaps god! was actually her take on it.
She took the occult idea 20th century idea that we all have a spark of god within us. So since we are all god all we need to do is pay our hundreds of dollars to take the course and we can learn how to perform miracles.
Here’s what I would like to know. What has this god/universe/blob been doing for the last three thousand years that’s caused millions and millions to live in wretched poverty, starve to death, die in writhing agony due to the communists, or Mongols, etc. Really, what?
For pity’s sake, why hasn’t the universe/god/whatever mentioned this stuff about how we are all divine before?
Hoping you can enlighten me,
And may God truly flood you with light, Annem
C
Counterpoint
Guest
Knowledge of the truth only comes with intellectual honesty.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Why do I need to explain “anything” to you? To put it mildly in your words of sidebar conversation.
No where does Jesus commit blasphemy. This was desert desperation by the Jews at the time to have any reason and excuse for Jesus to be taken for slaughter like a lamb predicted in Isaiah. Scripture wasn’t properly understood by them and we clearly see Jesus rebuking them for that. So this argument of accusations of blasphemy against Jesus proving Jesus made blasphemous claims circles the drain as its suppose to.
And this is where you say “I don’t believe that” and the circle goes on.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
It was a very late 60’s early 70’s thing. Somehow that was confused as divine revelation. God told the professor to write the Course while she was teaching at Columbia. She read the Bible and the conversion dance began. Often as we see here those “first” Holy Spirit signal grace’s often result in inflated egos and pride if not properly checked and discerned by Gods “Church” He established specifically for such experiences.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
Follow? “so he did not open his mouth”
The sentence explains it all. Sorry God didn’t meet your requirement of clarity. He didn’t come down off the Cross either, does that make Him not God also?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
“God didn’t meet your requirement of clarity.” Should be no surprise to see the claim, its repetitive and historic from “antiquity”.
However, he told Mose’s Noah and Daniel, in so many words, that all they had to do was put their life in Gods hands. The results are clearly evident as they are with the good thief.
All you have to do is “Put your life in Gods hands”:. Try not to be “un-coachable” in the process.
However, he told Mose’s Noah and Daniel, in so many words, that all they had to do was put their life in Gods hands. The results are clearly evident as they are with the good thief.
All you have to do is “Put your life in Gods hands”:. Try not to be “un-coachable” in the process.
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annem
Guest
Counterpoint
Truth only exists if God exits. Period. How can there be real truth in a pantheism?
Come, come, this has been hashed over for centuries, and it is crystal clear that pantheism rejects good and evil, truth and untruth.
If the god/force/pantheistic entity is both evil and good, then there is no real evil and good. And certainly no truth, and, for that matter, intellectual honesty.
May God flood you with miracles, Annem
Hi, I’m sorry you haven’t responded to my post to you.
Truth only exists if God exits. Period. How can there be real truth in a pantheism?
Come, come, this has been hashed over for centuries, and it is crystal clear that pantheism rejects good and evil, truth and untruth.
If the god/force/pantheistic entity is both evil and good, then there is no real evil and good. And certainly no truth, and, for that matter, intellectual honesty.
May God flood you with miracles, Annem
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