Division between Traditional and Social Justice Catholics

[truth2]

Our Bishop stated in one of his articles in the Diocesan newpaper that he hopes for a healing between the Social Justice Catholics and the Traditional Catholcs.

I have my opinion on this, but would like to hear from others.

 

[Love4All]

Our Bishop stated in one of his articles in the Diocesan newpaper that he hopes for a healing between the Social Justice Catholics and the Traditional Catholcs.

I have my opinion on this, but would like to hear from others.

Smacks of false dichotomy to me. I was unaware there was any such rift.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Smacks of false dichotomy to me.

It IS a false dichotomy, and it is used artificially on this forum all the time, by Catholics dividing Catholics. I’m tired of it.

One is either fully a Catholic (in belief) or partially a Catholic (in belief), or as Theophorus said (I cross-posted with him), orthodox or heterodox.
A full (orthodox) Catholic adheres to all of the teachings, even if that Catholic prefers a more modern liturgy, or conversely if that Catholic prefers an EF Mass.
A heterodox Catholic selects which teachings to believe in.

 

[Theophorus]

I agree with Love4All, it smacks of false dichotomy.

There are orthodox catholics and unorthodox catholics, this is the only true division in the church.

PS I’m not sure this belongs in the philosophy forum.

 

[sennincatholic]

Do we not have thesame sacraments?Do we not believe in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH?then why should we create divisions where there are not supposed to be and end up only doing harm to ourselves.We have nothing to envy from the many divisions among protestants!Lets stop with all of this traditonal vs social justice catholicism and stick simply to catholicism.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Do we not have thesame sacraments?Do we not believe in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH?then why should we create divisions where there are not supposed to be and end up only doing harm to ourselves.We have nothing to envy from the many divisions among protestants!Lets stop with all of this traditonal vs social justice catholicism and stick simply to catholicism.

Yeah, no kidding!

Baffles me as well, but wait until any political discussion gets raised in World News, or any (false) “litmus test” of “charity” becomes arbitrarily introduced in the Social Justice forum, with those who fancy themselves superior in charity judging the rest of the forum as inferior because the latter happens to join discussions on moral doctrine.

But it’s more subtle than that. It’s not just either/or. (Bad enough.) It’s “more” and “less.” So supposedly those who prefer to discuss social justice have “more” charity than those who prefer to discuss other topics. (A judgment which ironically violates charity right there, as Jesus made clear.)

No one know whether a traditionalist practices good social justice unless that traditionalist makes a declaration about it (and if we presume that the declaration is honest). And no one knows whether a modernist Catholic opposes moral doctrine unless he or she does state that. (And sometimes that does happen.)

Indiividuals may in fact be dichotomous, but if so, they are practicing a half-faith.

 

[sennincatholic]

Yeah, no kidding!

Baffles me as well, but wait until any political discussion gets raised in World News, or any (false) “litmus test” of “charity” becomes arbitrarily introduced in the Social Justice forum, with those who fancy themselves superior in charity judging the rest of the forum as inferior because the latter happens to join discussions on moral doctrine.

But it’s more subtle than that. It’s not just either/or. (Bad enough.) It’s “more” and “less.” So supposedly those who prefer to discuss social justice have “more” charity than those who prefer to discuss other topics. (A judgment which ironically violates charity right there, as Jesus made clear.)

No one know whether a traditionalist practices good social justice unless that traditionalist makes a declaration about it (and if we presume that the declaration is honest). And no one knows whether a modernist Catholic opposes moral doctrine unless he or she does state that. (And sometimes that does happen.)

Indiividuals may in fact be dichotomous, but if so, they are practicing a half-faith.

:slapfight: :sad_yes:

 

[sennincatholic]

I also think this dichotomy seems to be more of a reality in the US.I leave in Cameroon(Africa) and here you are either a catholic(with the whole package that comes with it) or not!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Our Bishop stated in one of his articles in the Diocesan newpaper that he hopes for a healing between the Social Justice Catholics and the Traditional Catholcs.

I have my opinion on this, but would like to hear from others.

My opinion is that putting an adjective in front of “Catholic” except for distinguishing “Roman” from “Melkite,” is a dangerous practice that leads us away form the will of God as expressed by Jesus Christ Who said He wanted us to be one. As soon as folks start choosing “sides” they start thinking theirs is the better side, and then we get to “Real” Catholics as opposed to… well, whatever someone thinks is not a real Catholic.

I don’t care what the Mass looks like, very much, as long as I have a licit Mass to go to. I care a lot that the Church reaches out to care for the disenfranchised. I’m delighted there are folks who make it their mission to keep the home fires burning so to speak.

There are all kinds of people with all kinds of skills and God calls us each to live our Faith in a way that pleases Him. That looks different from the outside. But I believe Saint Augustine admonished us to “believe others are better than you in their souls, even if you appear to be better than they.”

Enough labels.

Oneness does not mean being indistinguishable from one another.

 

[mountee]

My opinion is that putting an adjective in front of “Catholic” except for distinguishing “Roman” from “Melkite,” is a dangerous practice that leads us away form the will of God as expressed by Jesus Christ Who said He wanted us to be one. As soon as folks start choosing “sides” they start thinking theirs is the better side, and then we get to “Real” Catholics as opposed to… well, whatever someone thinks is not a real Catholic.

I don’t care what the Mass looks like, very much, as long as I have a licit Mass to go to. I care a lot that the Church reaches out to care for the disenfranchised. I’m delighted there are folks who make it their mission to keep the home fires burning so to speak.

There are all kinds of people with all kinds of skills and God calls us each to live our Faith in a way that pleases Him. That looks different from the outside. But I believe Saint Augustine admonished us to “believe others are better than you in their souls, even if you appear to be better than they.”

Enough labels.

Oneness does not mean being indistinguishable from one another.

Well said:thumbsup: When we label we give a stamp of approval to something as if it were a Truth of the Church and it is not. But, the bishop is probably trying to refer to the discussions going on with the LCWR and their supporters without actually mentioning them,

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Every true Catholic believes in Tradition and prays for social justice. Those who would divide themselves are not truly Catholic.

 

[Pugsly]

Our Bishop stated in one of his articles in the Diocesan newpaper that he hopes for a healing between the Social Justice Catholics and the Traditional Catholcs.

I have my opinion on this, but would like to hear from others.

Western civilization has a critical and OBVIOUS divide that most people can’t articulate or come close to summarize. This divide has people latching on to shallow terms and digging in their heels. For example…if the Bishop used the term “Leftist”…immediately you have wonderful people with Left wing leanings working up a lather. So any discussion of this critical divide is often short curcuited by loaded terms…(Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to save Babylon as the tower workers wander off muttering). Then there are those (see above) who would take the angelic high ground and claim there is no divide…or shouldn’t be…which is not helpful either.
Now this OBVIOUS divide is Philosophical…yes…but it is also a vastly ongoing spiritual battle. Your Bishop has publicly and somewhat awkwardly framed the divide in terms of “Social Justice Catholics” and “Traditional Catholics”. That is NOT inaccurate. It is, however, a truncated and inexact summary…with a Pollyanna prayer attached.

Let’s put aside terms like “Leftism” “modern liberalism” “the New Left” “Liberation theology” “Socialism” “Conservatives” “Republicans” “Traditional” “Fundamentalist” “Right wing”…etc…etc…etc. Let’s merely use the term that God provided in Sacred Scripture…“Worldly philosophy…that has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof”

St Paul was arguing with these same people (that are destroying Western civilization today) in his time. I have MUCH more to say…but alas I have to go to work on the tower project. Peace

 

[katy]

And is it not traditional for Catholics to be interested in social justice?

 

[Joe_5859]

Well, yes, it is a false dichotomy. All Catholics should be all about both preserving Sacred Tradition and traditional morality and serving the poor and the voiceless in all of the social justice issues.

However, there are definitely people who self-identify as one group or the other and are extremely suspicious of those who self-identify as the other group. I know, I have met many of them. Without reading the whole article I can only guess, but it seems to me that the bishop would be trying to get people to recognize that it is a false dichotomy and thus experience a healing of those artificial divisions we draw up.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I have seen examples of both groups who are heterodox or borderline heterodox. Maybe that is what he means… When either type goes off the deep end, they go off the deep end in two different directions. One type goes toward liberalism and secularism and the other type goes toward legalism and superstition. But as for those who are orthodox in their belief, I hope that there isn’t a schism.

 

[CO_Pilgrim]

Western civilization has a critical and OBVIOUS divide that most people can’t articulate or come close to summarize. This divide has people latching on to shallow terms and digging in their heels. For example…if the Bishop used the term “Leftist”…immediately you have wonderful people with Left wing leanings working up a lather. So any discussion of this critical divide is often short curcuited by loaded terms…(Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to save Babylon as the tower workers wander off muttering). Then there are those (see above) who would take the angelic high ground and claim there is no divide…or shouldn’t be…which is not helpful either.
Now this OBVIOUS divide is Philosophical…yes…but it is also a vastly ongoing spiritual battle. Your Bishop has publicly and somewhat awkwardly framed the divide in terms of “Social Justice Catholics” and “Traditional Catholics”. That is NOT inaccurate. It is, however, a truncated and inexact summary…with a Pollyanna prayer attached.

Let’s put aside terms like “Leftism” “modern liberalism” “the New Left” “Liberation theology” “Socialism” “Conservatives” “Republicans” “Traditional” “Fundamentalist” “Right wing”…etc…etc…etc. Let’s merely use the term that God provided in Sacred Scripture…“Worldly philosophy…that has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof”

St Paul was arguing with these same people (that are destroying Western civilization today) in his time. I have MUCH more to say…but alas I have to go to work on the tower project. Peace

Agreed.

There are many U.S. Catholics who take a smorgasbord approach to determine what they wish to believe and what they wish to discard. Some argue for “social justice” but ignore other foundational principles the Church and Christianity follow.

Like it or not, there is a difference within the U.S. church between those who label themselves as Catholics but choose to only hang their hat on one or two teachings/principles they like, and those who try to embrace the fullness of the faith in all their frail, fallen humanity as they seek to build a stronger relationship with Jesus.

There are forces at work trying to cause and maintain this split within the Church, and to believe otherwise is simply to ignore the reality of what all Catholics are facing now.

 

[Love4All]

Every true Catholic believes in Tradition and prays for social justice. Those who would divide themselves are not truly Catholic.

Perhaps, though, there are some who choose one battle to fight and leave other battles to others. Specialization should not be cause for division.

Western civilization has a critical and OBVIOUS divide that most people can’t articulate or come close to summarize. This divide has people latching on to shallow terms and digging in their heels. For example…if the Bishop used the term “Leftist”…immediately you have wonderful people with Left wing leanings working up a lather. So any discussion of this critical divide is often short curcuited by loaded terms…(Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to save Babylon as the tower workers wander off muttering). Then there are those (see above) who would take the angelic high ground and claim there is no divide…or shouldn’t be…which is not helpful either.
Now this OBVIOUS divide is Philosophical…yes…but it is also a vastly ongoing spiritual battle. Your Bishop has publicly and somewhat awkwardly framed the divide in terms of “Social Justice Catholics” and “Traditional Catholics”. That is NOT inaccurate. It is, however, a truncated and inexact summary…with a Pollyanna prayer attached.

Let’s put aside terms like “Leftism” “modern liberalism” “the New Left” “Liberation theology” “Socialism” “Conservatives” “Republicans” “Traditional” “Fundamentalist” “Right wing”…etc…etc…etc. Let’s merely use the term that God provided in Sacred Scripture…“Worldly philosophy…that has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof”

St Paul was arguing with these same people (that are destroying Western civilization today) in his time. I have MUCH more to say…but alas I have to go to work on the tower project. Peace

I disagree that the bishop’s characterization was not inaccurate. I think it was. Words have meanings, and a bishop especially ought to choose his words more carefully, I think. To the point: Catholicism is based on Sacred Tradition, and that Tradition includes Social Justice Teaching. So I am a Traditional Catholic who hungers and thirsts for Social Justice. I don’t have to choose a side. Christ is not divided.

I have seen examples of both groups who are heterodox or borderline heterodox. Maybe that is what he means… When either type goes off the deep end, they go off the deep end in two different directions. One type goes toward liberalism and secularism and the other type goes toward legalism and superstition. But as for those who are orthodox in their belief, I hope that there isn’t a schism.

I think you are getting closer to the point the bishop was probably trying to make, albeit awkwardly.

The Church is based on Tradition; but Fideism is heresy. The Church promotes Social Justice; but Socialism is condemned (it is not heresy per se because it is not a theological stance, but an economic one.)

So, perhaps the bishop wished to warn Catholics away from Fideism on the “right” and Socialism on the “left.” But perhaps it would have been better expressed, to encourage Fideists to conform themselves to the actual Tradition of the Church, and Socialists to stick with Catholic Social Justice Teaching.

Agreed.

There are many U.S. Catholics who take a smorgasbord approach to determine what they wish to believe and what they wish to discard. Some argue for “social justice” but ignore other foundational principles the Church and Christianity follow.

Like it or not, there is a difference within the U.S. church between those who label themselves as Catholics but choose to only hang their hat on one or two teachings/principles they like, and those who try to embrace the fullness of the faith in all their frail, fallen humanity as they seek to build a stronger relationship with Jesus.

There are forces at work trying to cause and maintain this split within the Church, and to believe otherwise is simply to ignore the reality of what all Catholics are facing now.

The reality of the battle here is, just as Saint Paul said, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities in high places. The weapon in the War is the Rosary. Praying it and propagating it will bring Catholics back to the fold, and then the whole world into the Church.

 

[Joe_5859]

I disagree that the bishop’s characterization was not inaccurate. I think it was. Words have meanings, and a bishop especially ought to choose his words more carefully, I think. To the point: Catholicism is based on Sacred Tradition, and that Tradition includes Social Justice Teaching. So I am a Traditional Catholic who hungers and thirsts for Social Justice. I don’t have to choose a side. Christ is not divided.

I think you are getting closer to the point the bishop was probably trying to make, albeit awkwardly.

Did you read the actual article? I haven’t seen anyone post a link to it. How do we know the bishop did not choose his words carefully or that he made a point only awkwardly. We have only the OP’s brief paraphrase to go by.

 

[Love4All]

Did you read the actual article? I haven’t seen anyone post a link to it. How do we know the bishop did not choose his words carefully or that he made a point only awkwardly. We have only the OP’s brief paraphrase to go by.

Very true.

 

[truth2]

Did you read the actual article? I haven’t seen anyone post a link to it. How do we know the bishop did not choose his words carefully or that he made a point only awkwardly. We have only the OP’s brief paraphrase to go by.

I choose not to quote the diocesan paper the article appeared in due to not wanting to point fingers. The statement made by the Bishop seemed more of an aside as Traditional and Social Justice Catholics was not the core topic discussed.

Peace. npatrol:npatrol: