Divorce and Catechism dissagreement

[richlo]

My question is for Catholic divorce issues. I am not sure I agree 100% of what the Catechism teaches in regards to this. I truly believe that is actually wrong how we interpret it. I know the bible talks about a man leaving his home and becoming ONE with his wife and nothing that God puts together should be broken. This may have been his ORIGINAL plan but in a sinful and hurtful world – it was obvious he did not have an issue with the decree being given during Moses times at that time. Why do I feel like this is incorrect? It’s pretty easy to see the sin of adultery and not forgiving someone to stay with them. No way can I accept that God will say TAKE IT – yeah right – God did say he was a jealous God (although forgiving). Also, many kings had a wife YET they did not live by the original plan, Abraham, David, Solomon – and much more had wives and concubines – so unless they did not have sexual intercourse this throws out the original plan and God did not punish these men for it. Now I am not saying that we should be jumping from person to person, I do believe that one has to try but once the oath of love is broken(cheating) – sorry that kind of sin is hard to forgive and you don’t have to forgive and forget then stay - Do we actually believe God will not allow you to live a new life with someone who can be good to you. Would you? Would anyone want to live a life alone because a husband or wife was a cheater or because they physically beat them up? Would you think Jesus would say NOPE you have to stay alone and never be loved again? The common spiritual sense will say of course not.

In fact God left Israel due to its fornication/adultery– why cannot we be able and interpret the word PORNEA as just that – sexual inmorality…makes perfect sense.

I do not have a problem with the law but the interpretation has no logic whatsover.

I feel bad for those who have been married through the Church and it happens to them. I think this is where Luther may have had a point correct on this. Dont worry I am proud to be Catholic - not converting to anything else :thumbsup:

This to me sound incredibly logical:

Mt 19:9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

 

[Chatter163]

Let me see if I have this right:

1. You have decided that God’s plan is not workable, from a human perspective, so you have arbitrarily created two distinctions: a) what God’s “original plan” was, and b) the way things REALLY are.
2. By virtue of the above, you apparently assume that God was unaware that there would be sin in the world. How else does one explain the gap between His original plan and all of history that immediately followed?
3. Our Savior’s own teaching, which came thousands of years after Moses, et al., and when there was plenty of sin around, does not count for much in the REAL world, but He taught it, anyway.
4. Naturally, your interpretation prevails, because you declare that your interpretation is “logical” and others have “no logic whatsoever.”
5. The Church’s interpretation, which has to do with valid versus invalid marriages, counts for nothing in this equation.

Do you see that there is more than a little pride involved with your scheme?

 

[karebear92]

Mt 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery

If one divorces as a result of their own sexual immorality, would they be allowed to marry their mistress, according to your logic? Or does this only apply to the victim? If one is not happy with their spouse, why not get married to someone who will make them happier? Why should one have to live an unhappy life when they could be living a happier with someone else, regardless of reason? What if they just fall out of love for another reason, such as a fight? Or because one was gambling and using too much money and not providing for the family?

What I am getting at is where would it stop? Would you also consider these circumstances moral? After husband and wife become one, should they be divided into two, and then become one again with another person?

If one leaves a relationship for any reason, they should remain celibate, unless the Church agrees that they never validly became one flesh (an annulment).

 

[pataburd]

I feel bad for those who have been married through the Church and it happens to them. I think this is where Luther may have had a point correct on this.

Then there’s a spot reserved just for you–in the Lutheran church! See ya! : )

 

[richlo]

Pataburd - No thank you. Personally instead of attacking people - try using scriptures and history as to why you think differently. Remember even the Bereans did not fully trust Paul and went right to the scriptures for verficaiton - THAT IS WHAT I DO. Secondly, I have heard from priest and deacons state that Lutheran did have some good argument. He was still a catholic. I am not going anywhere

Kearbear92 - I like your thinking here…But my question is more direct to the victim. I am not a victim of this. I just find it hard to see someone who may have gone thru this - being victimized - and not being able to remarry. I am okay feeling that I can be wrong on this - but I am also understanding that anyone can be wrong about many things.

chatter163 - you make some strong arguments here. I just confused as to why GOD allowed it for thousands of years and then Jesus comes and does not mention anything UNTIL the Pharissees ask about it (or does he say something later?). Nevertheless, marriage is a serious thing that many take for granted during and suffer well after.

One last question? in everyones eyes - do you actually feel the Church can be wrong of anything? the bible clearly does mention this, Jesus mentions this, Paul mentions this, so is it even possible that maybe it can be? I am glad that our great church does make it hard for people to simply get divorced - I agree with this - I just think when it comes to sexual inmorality against someone that it possibly should free them but I am not GOD but yet I feel the need to test everything - the bible teaches this.

Please be easy on me.

 

[Chatter163]

Pataburd - No thank you. Personally instead of attacking people - try using scriptures and history as to why you think differently. Remember even the Bereans did not fully trust Paul and went right to the scriptures for verficaiton - THAT IS WHAT I DO. Secondly, I have heard from priest and deacons state that Lutheran did have some good argument. He was still a catholic. I am not going anywhere

Kearbear92 - I like your thinking here…But my question is more direct to the victim. I am not a victim of this. I just find it hard to see someone who may have gone thru this - being victimized - and not being able to remarry. I am okay feeling that I can be wrong on this - but I am also understanding that anyone can be wrong about many things.

chatter163 - you make some strong arguments here. I just confused as to why GOD allowed it for thousands of years and then Jesus comes and does not mention anything UNTIL the Pharissees ask about it (or does he say something later?). Nevertheless, marriage is a serious thing that many take for granted during and suffer well after.

One last question? in everyones eyes - do you actually feel the Church can be wrong of anything? the bible clearly does mention this, Jesus mentions this, Paul mentions this, so is it even possible that maybe it can be? I am glad that our great church does make it hard for people to simply get divorced - I agree with this - I just think when it comes to sexual inmorality against someone that it possibly should free them but I am not GOD but yet I feel the need to test everything - the bible teaches this.

Please be easy on me.

Where does the bible teach that Church can be wrong on faith and morals? I seem to recall Our Lord telling Peter otherwise.

 

[mswood]

I just wanted to point out that divorce is not always disallowed by the Church:

"2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.177

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. "

Even in these cases a person would need a decleration of nullity to remarry within in the Catholic Church.

Adultery is not a reason for a declaration of nullity, however it can be used as evidence that one of the parties to the marriage did not intend to be faithful at the time the marriage vows where taken, which can be used as grounds for a declaration of nullity.

 

[manualman]

The basic problem here is that Americans today have fashioned this notion of ‘happiness’ into an idol that we worship with utter abandon. If anything in this life does not bring us happiness (the definition of which looks suspiciously like ‘gratification’), it MUST be something we can be rid of and move on from.

The bad news is that suffering happens. We don’t know why, especially us idolatrous Americans. Sometimes suffering is inescapable. We don’t know why. We just have to learn to be joyful in spite of our sufferings. I say this like I’ve learned it personally, but don’t be fooled. I’m a wuss and haven’t hardly suffered a day in my life. But the testimony of the great saints is consistent on this matter.

Jesus was extremely clear that there IS no divorce. There may be circumstances where there never really was a marriage (anullment), but marriage doesn’t end until death. Anything else is rationalizing.

 

[thistle]

Pataburd - No thank you. Personally instead of attacking people - try using scriptures and history as to why you think differently. Remember even the Bereans did not fully trust Paul and went right to the scriptures for verficaiton - THAT IS WHAT I DO. Secondly, I have heard from priest and deacons state that Lutheran did have some good argument. He was still a catholic. I am not going anywhere

Kearbear92 - I like your thinking here…But my question is more direct to the victim. I am not a victim of this. I just find it hard to see someone who may have gone thru this - being victimized - and not being able to remarry. I am okay feeling that I can be wrong on this - but I am also understanding that anyone can be wrong about many things.

chatter163 - you make some strong arguments here. I just confused as to why GOD allowed it for thousands of years and then Jesus comes and does not mention anything UNTIL the Pharissees ask about it (or does he say something later?). Nevertheless, marriage is a serious thing that many take for granted during and suffer well after.

One last question? in everyones eyes - do you actually feel the Church can be wrong of anything? the bible clearly does mention this, Jesus mentions this, Paul mentions this, so is it even possible that maybe it can be? I am glad that our great church does make it hard for people to simply get divorced - I agree with this - I just think when it comes to sexual inmorality against someone that it possibly should free them but I am not GOD but yet I feel the need to test everything - the bible teaches this.

Please be easy on me.

In matters of faith and morals the Church can never be wrong. If you are Catholic you should know that.
Also, a Church teaching trumps your private interpretation of scripture.
Catholics who reject a Church teaching commit heresy.

 

[adrift]

chatter163 - you make some strong arguments here. I just confused as to why GOD allowed it for thousands of years and then Jesus comes and does not mention anything UNTIL the Pharissees ask about it (or does he say something later?). Nevertheless, marriage is a serious thing that many take for granted during and suffer well after.

They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?"
He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

 

[pataburd]

Pataburd - No thank you. Personally instead of attacking people - try using scriptures and history as to why you think differently. Remember even the Bereans did not fully trust Paul and went right to the scriptures for verficaiton - THAT IS WHAT I DO. Secondly, I have heard from priest and deacons state that Lutheran did have some good argument. He was still a catholic. I am not going anywhere

Please be easy on me.

R,
O.K. My apologies: I was off the cuff there, I admit. But I also admit that I am distressed, when professed Catholics no less, continue to question basic teachings of the Church. A priest that I know and have spoken with has openly denied the dogma of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, and asserts a moral equivalence between killing a baby in the womb and killing an adult in a war. Why should I give viewpoints like Father’s, which run counter to established Church teaching, serious credence? Quite frankly, I have better things to do, especially when he and other Catholic clergy like him stubbornly persist in heresy–let’s call it what it is

St. Paul gives clear guidelines in such cases:

Galatians 1 (D-R Bible):
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

As far as Scripture goes, it’s the re-marrying after divorce that qualifies the adultery: so the divorcee who remarries, and the one who marries the divorcee become culpable. I have a very dear Catholic friend who is divorced, but who has lived celibately ever since.

Jennifer Roback Morse, Ph.D, presents sensible and compelling arguments against divorce from an almost purely “natural” vantage point which are, of course, also “spot-on” with Catholic moral teaching. You would benefit from her discourses, which should also serve to help balance your perspective.

Cordially,
PAB

 

[richlo]

I can honestly say that this really was enjoyable to read. In fact I was proud to read so much knowledge given here. I admit that I am not your normal just have faith Catholic - sorry this is me - I test everything and GOD certainly knows me for it as even Thomas was like this and Jesus accepted it - I just was not as lucky to have seen all his work like he did - this is why when I became Catholic - I chose Thomas as my saint name.

Thanks again everyone - you really reached out exactly like I had hope. I know that many Catholics may frown upon the type of person I am but the church I have been going to love that I bring this - many Catholics started talking up more on teachings and doctrines - simply believing may be enough for most but for me there is that drive to not only accept but why to accept.

May God bless you all. Sorry if I touched anyone’s nerve here. It is not my intent.

So that I give you a little background - I was a Jehovah Witness for most of my life, although Catholic born/baptized. So I have a little resentment towards my past JW life and I simply just dont go and jump into a church without testing it and the Catholic church was the only one at the end that made sense to me. This is why I am the way I am. I still have allot of growing up to do - so I hope this better makes sens to you all.

 

[vsedriver]

So that I give you a little background - I was a Jehovah Witness for most of my life, although Catholic born/baptized. So I have a little resentment towards my past JW life and I simply just dont go and jump into a church without testing it and the Catholic church was the only one at the end that made sense to me. This is why I am the way I am. I still have allot of growing up to do - so I hope this better makes sens to you all.

if anyone honestly questions a Church teaching with the goal of understanding they will be rewarded with a clearer and deeper love for the Church.

I have seen many people question the Church’s teachings on marriage, sex, the priesthood etc. The Church has sound reasoning coupled with support from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The only way to throw out Church Teaching is to ignore Sacred Tradition and try to re-interpret Sacred Scripture with the ever popular “Surely God would not want this for me…” comments to allow for their personal exclusion from Church teaching.

 

[richlo]

@VSEDRIVER

I love your explanation and the carefulness we must have. I do recognize that I have to understand that because it seems logical to ME that I am not GOD to think at his logic.

 

[pataburd]

I can honestly say that this really was enjoyable to read. In fact I was proud to read so much knowledge given here. I admit that I am not your normal just have faith Catholic - sorry this is me - I test everything and GOD certainly knows me for it as even Thomas was like this and Jesus accepted it - I just was not as lucky to have seen all his work like he did - this is why when I became Catholic - I chose Thomas as my saint name.

Thanks again everyone - you really reached out exactly like I had hope. I know that many Catholics may frown upon the type of person I am but the church I have been going to love that I bring this - many Catholics started talking up more on teachings and doctrines - simply believing may be enough for most but for me there is that drive to not only accept but why to accept.

May God bless you all. Sorry if I touched anyone’s nerve here. It is not my intent.

So that I give you a little background - I was a Jehovah Witness for most of my life, although Catholic born/baptized. So I have a little resentment towards my past JW life and I simply just dont go and jump into a church without testing it and the Catholic church was the only one at the end that made sense to me. This is why I am the way I am. I still have allot of growing up to do - so I hope this better makes sens to you all.

Rich,
Welcome back Home! Boy, would I love to sit down with you and hear your conversion “testimony”!

: )

Also, I should have clarified the statements I made earlier. My difficulty lay with professed Catholics questioning dogma, but with the intention to persist in and/or promote error. This is the context where these kinds of questions usually arise in my experience, so I reacted under a false presumption. So again, my apologies for being flippant earlier.

As another poster pointed out, questioning our Faith in order to deepen our understanding of and our response to it is always a good thing, while denying the Faith or “stubbornly persisting” in doubt concerning established dogma formally constitutes heresy.

Cordially,
PAB

 

[richlo]

Rich,
Welcome back Home! Boy, would I love to sit down with you and hear your conversion “testimony”! Cordially,
PAB

Sure thing…

Here is my testimony:

Both of my parents were Catholics - my dad in fact was going to try to be an ordained Priest early in his life. I was baptized just about a month or two after I was born and after that - I wouldnt even know if I set foot back in to a Catholic church. My parents divorced and I left to live with my father as a child - the weirdest thing happend - they both ended up being Jehovah Witnesses well after the divorce - go figure. Years went on and I was being raised to be an “elder(wiseman” at the congregation - my dad really threw a big shadow of which I was to cover later in life. As I grew up, I questioned allot of things and my dad simply pushed me off - things just didnt seem to right about it. I felt that the love given there was truly not christian - in fact I started to turn a bit on them. I finally had reached an age where I was going to be a step away from a very important position as a ministerial servant (think deacon in this case) and I was way to young for that about 16 or 17. The minute I turned it down - my life completely changed, not only were the elders treating me bad but also my father really took it to me…Enough was enough…I left not only the congregation I left my family right before 18yo.

As JW traditions go - I was not to be talked to anymore by anyone affiliated with the Church - my step mom, dad, sisters and brother cut me off for years. i think turn to being agnostic or even borderline athiest. I had allot - I mean ALLOT of resentment about this but nevertheless I was not going back based on that threat.

Years continue to pass and I felt an urge to find GOD (a real big urge) and tried several different churches, pentecostal (didnt even know it was), baptist, and non-denominational churches. Although I enjoyed the people I met there - I still didnt feel like I found a home or something just didnt feel right.

Here is where my life starts to change, I met Emily and she is a devout Catholic, a girl that i was very interested in - I kinda was digging her a little too much. So we started with discussions about religious beliefs and she was pretty impressed with allot of what I was saying but then she kinda challenged me to RCIA and to look at the very church I was baptized in. As a JW - that is a huge NO-NO - in fact, JW call the Catholic church - the Great Little Bablyon the Great - the harlot, but Im an X-JW - so who cares what they thought. So I started first on my own - biggest topics of Trinity, prayer to the saints, Eucharest, church history, etc…then I started my RCIA classes - and all for a sudden something clicked in me - I remember a passage somewhere in the bible - and Catholics all over know this one where Jesus tells Peter “upon this rock I will build my church and not even the gates of hades will prevail against it” (I think this is what is says), so i started to think - which church from early christian times till now has survived this - and the only answer I came up with was “The Catholic Church” - omg I told myself - the JW have only existed about 100 years with seriously theological flaws and failed predictions - they cant even find a church previously that teaches their doctrines the same.

So, this was such a surprise to me all of this - for all these years I would never had considered the Catholic Church and here is this simple girl that had such great faith and did not condemn me for some of the thoughts I had and this caught me off guard. Nevertheless I completed my RCIA classes and was accepted into the church this past Easter. Just to add, me and my older brother were baptized the same day as kids, I found out a few days before Easter that he as well was finishing the RCIA classes as well - now that is funny.

this weekend my brother is getting married at his parrish here in Chicago.

Emily and I - we started to date and one of the most memorable dates we had was a night with GOD - at the church at 4am - we previously were at the beach. This church really felt different - looked powerful but like you felt life in it…Its the parrish she goes to. I remember the pew number on purpose - not sure why but I did. So time passed and this past weekend we went into the church - July 3rd, sat at the same pew, prayed. I asked her about lighting a vigil - and she said its $3.00 - i had money just didnt think i had singles, sure enough I had exactly that…WOW…so I prayed quickly because I had a proposal ring with me. We went back and I asked her to sit and in tears because I got so emotional about this - i asked her to marry me and she said YES and then put the ring on her finger - I always felt that I could do some really COOL things with the proposal - but because of where I was in life and now - I thank GOD for all of it and especially my Emily.

God has been good to me in letting me come back home and bless me with her.

Fortunatley my brother and sister (one of them) now talks and we share allot of our thoughts about religions. She is ready to leave the JW and she is also going to the church my brother is marrying - this is frowned upon by the JW. Unfortunately, my relationship with my dad and stepmom never recovered and after 20+ years of trying - I gave up.