Divorce and Catholic Marriage

[ammccluskey]

Good Morning

I am looking for some information on divorce and catholic marriage and have a few questions.

I am a Protestant and my fiance is Catholic. He wishes for us to be married in our local Catholic church, but I have previously been married and am now divorced (civil).

My fiance wants us to go and visit the priest to find out if it is possible for us to marry, and although i have done quite a lot of research on this he doesn’t seem to believe me that I would have to get my first marriage annulled first before this would be possible. He says that the priest would take it on an individual basis and that some priests are more modern than others and if this was the case, he would permit it without the annulment.

For my first marriage, we were both baptised protestants and were married in a Protestant church. From the research i have done this would be what the Catholic church would call a valid marriage and therefore an annulment would be necessary for me and my fiance to marry in our local Catholic church. Am I correct?

Also, my other question is that i have done some research and the date we wish to marry falls on Holy Saturday. From what i can tell, the catholic church does not allow weddings during Holy week. Is this also correct?

Thank you for your help.

 

[Phemie]

You are right on both counts.

Your marriage is presumed VALID and SACRAMENTAL since you were both baptized. You would have to petition for a decree of nullity, have the Marriage Tribunal examine the circumstances at the time you spoke your vows, and there is no guarantee that it would be granted.

On Holy Saturday the Church celebrates no sacraments except Penance & Anointing of the Sick and she frowns on weddings during Lent (if celebrated they must be subdued) and doesn’t celebrate them during Holy Week.

 

[ammccluskey]

Thank you for your reply Phemie.

I thought i was correct but i just wanted to double check. I will let him know what you have said, but think my fiance will still want to go and see the priest, i don’t think he’ll actually believe it until he hears it from him.

We have decided that if we did have to go down the route of getting an annulment, we would not do it. We know that the process is very lengthy and my previous husband and his family would have to give consent, plus it may not be granted (as you have confirmed my previous marriage was indeed valid and sacramental, i very much doubt it would be).

I think my fiance is also concerned that if in the future we have children, he would like them to be catholic and if we are not married in the catholic church he could not raise them in the catholic faith.

If we did have a civil marriage, would the church consider a catholic blessing and would this allow us to bring up our children catholic?

 

[LSK]

WHOA!

Start the process with the Tribunal. You have no idea what the ruling will be and for you to make an assumption out of fear that you won’t get your own way is no way to begin a marriage! Trust in God.

And if you were married by a shaman wearing a dog suit (if he/she is legally able to perform marriages in your state or country) you could have your children Baptized and raise them Catholic…but wouldn’t you rather be a WHOLE family unit?

 

[Sillara]

If we did have a civil marriage, would the church consider a catholic blessing and would this allow us to bring up our children catholic?

This “Catholic blessing” would be a convalidation, and to receive it, you would need to petition for and receive a declaration of nullity for your first marriage.

As for bringing your children up Catholic, it would probably be permissible, regardless of your marital situation. However, it would be difficult to show your children that you value the Church’s teachings if you do not value them regarding your marriage.

 

[Phemie]

Thank you for your reply Phemie.

I thought i was correct but i just wanted to double check. I will let him know what you have said, but think my fiance will still want to go and see the priest, i don’t think he’ll actually believe it until he hears it from him.

We have decided that if we did have to go down the route of getting an annulment, we would not do it. We know that the process is very lengthy and my previous husband and his family would have to give consent, plus it may not be granted (as you have confirmed my previous marriage was indeed valid and sacramental, i very much doubt it would be).

Your former spouse does not have to consent or even participate. He would be informed and it would be up to him to decide on his participation. The investigation would proceed whether or not he’s involved.

I think my fiance is also concerned that if in the future we have children, he would like them to be catholic and if we are not married in the catholic church he could not raise them in the catholic faith.

That’s not quite true. Your fiancé could continue to be a Catholic and go to Mass. He wouldn’t be allowed to receive Communion, though.

If we did have a civil marriage, would the church consider a catholic blessing and would this allow us to bring up our children catholic?

Blessing? No, since the Church doesn’t bless the sin of adultery – which you would be committing by marrying your fiancé while still married to your ‘ex’.

Raising your child in the Faith is another matter. There are many couples in our parish who are not in valid marriages yet present their children for baptism and raise them up in the Faith. It often depends on the parish and the priest. I’ve known priests who refused baptism unless the parents were coming to church every Sunday, OTOH, in my 11 years as parish secretary I’ve never known a family to be denied baptism.

 

[LilyM]

We know that the process is very lengthy and my previous husband and his family would have to give consent, plus it may not be granted (as you have confirmed my previous marriage was indeed valid and sacramental, i very much doubt it would be).

How long did your civil divorce take? Annulments don’t take any longer than the average civil divorce as far as I am aware. Is it less important to you to be married in the eyes of God (which is what an annulment is about) than in the eyes of the state? Why?

It’s not necessarily true that your ex-husband would need to give consent. In any event, on my understanding you would not be required to contact him, just to provide contact details, and the tribunal would take it from there - get in touch with him etc etc.

If we did have a civil marriage, would the church consider a catholic blessing and would this allow us to bring up our children catholic?

'Taint no such thing in the Catholic lexicon as a blessing of an invalid marriage, which yours would be without an annulment.

Baptism of a child would require the belief that the child would receive a Catholic upbringing. The fact that the two of you chose to flout the teachings of the Church for the sake of convenience, and get married outside it, might cast doubt on your intent to genuinely bringing up the child Catholic.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

We have decided that if we did have to go down the route of getting an annulment, we would not do it. We know that the process is very lengthy and my previous husband and his family would have to give consent, plus it may not be granted (as you have confirmed my previous marriage was indeed valid and sacramental, i very much doubt it would be).

Your previous husband would not have to give consent. He would be informed about what is happening and would have the opportunity to participate. If he chose not to participate it wouldn’t stop the Tribunal from investigating the circumstances of your marriage.

You don’t know if your marriage was valid unless and until the Tribunal makes a determination. That’s the whole point of the proceeding.

I think my fiance is also concerned that if in the future we have children, he would like them to be catholic and if we are not married in the catholic church he could not raise them in the catholic faith.

If your fiance wants to raise your children as Catholic then doesn’t it make sense that he wants that for himself as well? By marrying outside the Church he would be removing himself from the sacraments.

The best thing the two of you could do would be to sit down with a priest and discuss the situation. He’ll be able to advise you about the steps to take.

 

[ammccluskey]

Phemie:
So if we were to have a civil marriage my fiance could no longer receive communion?

Why?

 

[ammccluskey]

WHOA!

Start the process with the Tribunal. You have no idea what the ruling will be and for you to make an assumption out of fear that you won’t get your own way is no way to begin a marriage! Trust in God.

And if you were married by a shaman wearing a dog suit (if he/she is legally able to perform marriages in your state or country) you could have your children Baptized and raise them Catholic…but wouldn’t you rather be a WHOLE family unit?

Why wouldn’t we be a whole family unit? I am not Catholic and have no intentions of becoming a catholic either. Religion does not make you who you are, it is only part of it.

 

[LilyM]

So if we were to have a civil marriage my fiance could no longer receive communion?

Why?

“whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery” (Matt. 19:9) for starters. We take Our Lord’s words on this topic seriously.

For seconds, Catholics are bound to abide by the marriage laws of the Church just as US citizens are bound to the marriage laws of their country and can’t marry bigamously or polygamously as might be permissible in Muslim countries, for example. You break the laws of your country you get fined or go to jail, you break the laws of the Church you cannot receive the sacraments, including communion.

 

[puzzleannie]

For my first marriage, we were both baptised protestants and were married in a Protestant church. From the research i have done this would be what the Catholic church would call a valid marriage and therefore an annulment would be necessary for me and my fiance to marry in our local Catholic church. Am I correct?

Also, my other question is that i have done some research and the date we wish to marry falls on Holy Saturday. From what i can tell, the catholic church does not allow weddings during Holy week. Is this also correct?

Thank you for your help.

you are correct in both your suppostions, and congratulations on actually doing the research rather than relying on hearsay. Yes the next step is to visit the priest in the parish where you wish to marry. He can look at your individual situation and tell you how to proceed. I hope your good example inspires the Catholic party to learn more about his own faith. I hope very much for the health of your future relationship (there can be, objectively, no romantic relationship now as on the face of it you are still married as far as can be known) that you find this process a healing one and that you both come to appreciate the rightness of the Church’s teaching on marriage.

 

[Seatuck]

So if we were to have a civil marriage my fiance could no longer receive communion?

Why?

Because your fiance would be making a public act of intending to commit the sin of adultery. Since Christ taught us that marriage is permanent and you are unwilling to find out the status of your previous marriage we have to assume that it was a valid marriage. Therefore any time you and your fiance would have “marital relations” it would be the sin of adultery or fornication for you both. By engaging in a civil marriage your fiance is saying he thinks adultery and disobeying the laws of the church protecting marriage is ok.That would put him in a state of sin. No Catholic who is in a state of sin should be receiving communion. Especially one who has publically declared being out of union with the church such as when a Catholic gets a civil marriage without the proper dispensations of the church. You fiance will not be able to get those dispensations since your status as a non married person is not proven. This is serious business.

Please consider the annulment process to find out if you may marry and you fiance may retain his status in the church.Encourage you fiance to talk to his priest. It’s very important.

 

[1ke]

To add to what others have said, it seems your fiance does not himself understand the gravity of what he is proposing to do-- get married outside the Church. He doesn’t seem to understand the Catholic teaching on marriage at all. I commend you for doing your research, but he sounds really confused and probably needs to get some education on the matter from his priest.

The fact that he thinks that this is up to a priest, and a “more modern” priest may allow you to marry without a decree of nullity shows the extent to which he does not understand his own Church’s teachings. He also seems to think that getting married outside the Church is no big deal. It is a tremendously serious deal. Yes, he would be barred from the Sacraments because he would be committing a mortal sin-- two in fact: disobeying Church law, and committing adultery.

So, first, I would really encourage you two to make an appointment with the priest to discuss your desire to marry, discuss starting a nullity petition, and not make any rash decisions. Speculating and avoiding the process out of fear is not a way to start a marriage. As has already been pointed out, your ex does not have to participate or “consent.”

Secondly, I would really encourage you to get the book Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster. It explains the Church’s teaching on marriage very well. Read it together.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Good Morning

I am looking for some information on divorce and catholic marriage and have a few questions.

I am a Protestant and my fiance is Catholic. He wishes for us to be married in our local Catholic church, but I have previously been married and am now divorced (civil).

My fiance wants us to go and visit the priest to find out if it is possible for us to marry, and although i have done quite a lot of research on this he doesn’t seem to believe me that I would have to get my first marriage annulled first before this would be possible. He says that the priest would take it on an individual basis and that some priests are more modern than others and if this was the case, he would permit it without the annulment.

For my first marriage, we were both baptised protestants and were married in a Protestant church. From the research i have done this would be what the Catholic church would call a valid marriage and therefore an annulment would be necessary for me and my fiance to marry in our local Catholic church. Am I correct?

Also, my other question is that i have done some research and the date we wish to marry falls on Holy Saturday. From what i can tell, the catholic church does not allow weddings during Holy week. Is this also correct?

Thank you for your help.

Thank you for your reply Phemie.

I thought i was correct but i just wanted to double check. I will let him know what you have said, but think my fiance will still want to go and see the priest, i don’t think he’ll actually believe it until he hears it from him.

We have decided that if we did have to go down the route of getting an annulment, we would not do it. We know that the process is very lengthy and my previous husband and his family would have to give consent, plus it may not be granted (as you have confirmed my previous marriage was indeed valid and sacramental, i very much doubt it would be).

I think my fiance is also concerned that if in the future we have children, he would like them to be catholic and if we are not married in the catholic church he could not raise them in the catholic faith.

If we did have a civil marriage, would the church consider a catholic blessing and would this allow us to bring up our children catholic?

So if we were to have a civil marriage my fiance could no longer receive communion?

Why?

Why wouldn’t we be a whole family unit? I am not Catholic and have no intentions of becoming a catholic either. Religion does not make you who you are, it is only part of it.

A couple of things I will ask you to consider 1) your first attempted marriage was not actually valid, it is still presumed valid. Had it actually been valid it would only be dissolved by death. The problem is the presumption of valid which is still in place, THUS you are not considered free to marry. 2) Just as you had civil authority recognize the marriage attempt did not work(civil divorce), that is the same effect the church will look at. 3) This issue will not go away so please resolve it before more problems come from it. Eventually if left unresolved you have placed a long term strain on your husband by not allowing him to live in the Church’s guides.

BTW – You do not have to become catholic in this process, he can request a dispensation for his marriage, however that will not be granted while you still presumed married.

Hope that helps

 

[msugeotech]

Usually, at a minimum, most Tribunals will tell you to estimate a year for your case. My first marraige lasted 2 months, divorce took 3 months (no-fault). My case, from start to finish, took a year - almost to the exact date.

My ex did NOT participate in the process. During the process, there are several “built in” waiting periods (responses, witness testimony, etc.) that CANNOT be waived unless BOTH parties agree, which can’t happen if the other doesn’t participate.

Just wanted to share my experience, that’s all.

How long did your civil divorce take? Annulments don’t take any longer than the average civil divorce as far as I am aware.

 

[ammccluskey]

Eventually if left unresolved you have placed a long term strain on your husband by not allowing him to live in the Church’s guides.

Why do you think i am not “allowing him to live in the church’s guides”? Because we have decided not to go ahead with an annulment? No one has even bothered to ask, but it is in fact my fiance’s decision not to go down that route. From what you have said, you have presumed that it is mine.

Also, no one here has asked how I personally feel about any of this, or even if **I ** want to marry in the catholic church and yet many of you are making assumptions on my situation.

I only came here looking for information, not to be judged.

I’d like to thank those who have given me the information i asked for. You have been more than helpful.

 

[jmcrae]

Just to clarify one point:

You don’t need an annulment because your first marriage was valid and sacramental.

What you need is a Tribunal investigation that finds out whether your first marriage was valid and sacramental.

If they find that it was, what this means is that, from God’s point of view, you are still married to that first husband “until death ye do part,” just exactly as you promised before Him in your wedding vows. (If you never actually made such a promise, it would be important to mention this to the Tribunal - it would certainly speed up your case. )

If, however, they find that that marriage was not valid (ie: if there was never any expressed intention to remain married “until death ye do part”), then they will issue you a Decree of Nullity, which says that you can get married “for the first time” (since the previous marriage has been found not to have existed at all) in the Church.

The Tribunal (nor any human being on earth, even if he is a divorce court judge) has no power to nullify a valid marriage. All they can do is look at the facts of the case and discern whether a valid marriage exists, or not.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Hi ammccluskey
Lets go through this in pieces, I really think you are missing something.

Why do you think i am not “allowing him to live in the church’s guides”?

He has two choices now 1) not to marry 2) marry in a situation unacceptable to the church

Because we have decided not to go ahead with an annulment?

as a protestant you would bear no direct affect from this decision, however that is not true of your husband (assuming you marry)

No one has even bothered to ask, but it is in fact my fiance’s decision not to go down that route. From what you have said, you have presumed that it is mine.

not quiet, your husband cannot seek the annulment only you or the man you married can do that. Second his decision to "not to go down that route" will haute him and he may well reverse that decision in the future

Also, no one here has asked how I personally feel about any of this, or even if **I ** want to marry in the catholic church and yet many of you are making assumptions on my situation.

I think this maybe a misunderstanding remember saying “*I think my fiance is also concerned that if in the future we have children, he would like them to be catholic and if we are not married in the catholic church he could not raise them in the catholic faith. *” Now that statement is incorrect however it clearly indicates he desires to stay catholic. So in the absence of the annulment, he will have a rough go of it for the rest of his life. So why not fix that problem now with an annulment?

I only came here looking for information, not to be judged.

I’d like to thank those who have given me the information i asked for. You have been more than helpful.

I do not see anyone judging you I think we are all trying to assist you. I also think you do not fully understand yet what the long term affects will be on your husband. Your husband cannot marry you and be in good standing unless you receive and annulment.

I hope that helps

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Just to clarify one point:

You don’t need an annulment because your first marriage was valid and sacramental.

What you need is a Tribunal investigation that finds out whether your first marriage was valid and sacramental.

If they find that it was, what this means is that, from God’s point of view, you are still married to that first husband “until death ye do part,” just exactly as you promised before Him in your wedding vows. (If you never actually made such a promise, it would be important to mention this to the Tribunal - it would certainly speed up your case. )

If, however, they find that that marriage was not valid (ie: if there was never any expressed intention to remain married “until death ye do part”), then they will issue you a Decree of Nullity, which says that you can get married “for the first time” (since the previous marriage has been found not to have existed at all) in the Church.

The Tribunal (nor any human being on earth, even if he is a divorce court judge) has no power to nullify a valid marriage. All they can do is look at the facts of the case and discern whether a valid marriage exists, or not.

This seems a very problematic understanding to me. The tribunal can never really know such things. I have seen many cases where even one of the married parties did not know. That party is usually devastated by the civil divorce, because they did not know the marriage was not real ( and thus had to be invalid). What the tribunal can do is recommend to the bishop that reasonable evidence exists to believe there was not a marriage and the person is free to marry. Or contrarily that no evidence exists that the current marriage is invalid and thus neither party is free to marry, and their marriage is still presumed valid.