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BeeSweet
Guest
Lets say a person were divorced and remarried 5 times before they converted to Catholicism. How does the church treat the current marriage of this person?
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
The current marriage would be invalid. The assumption is that the first marriage is valid until proven otherwise. Then the assumption moves to the second marriage.
In the RCIA program I’m involved in, someone in an invalid marriage would not be received into the church until the marriage issues were resolved. They couldn’t move forward because they would be living in an objective state of sin so couldn’t receive the Eucharist.
This would clearly be an issue where the person involved needs to talk with a priest and begin the process of resolving their past.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
First, a rather small cavil: while you most accurately talk about presumptions of validity regarding the first marriage, etc., I think it would be best to extend the nuance of presumption to the last as well. It’s not that it necessarily “would be invalid” but that we can only presume it is invalid until everything else has been investigated.
More substantively, though - and here I’m not faulting you for saying what we’re basically always told- you’ve given the pretty standard advice for irregular marriage situations, but I’ve always had a problem with the stock reply. Why? The stock reply always assumes people wishing to enter the Catholic Church are going to place their marriage above their spiritual health. All that is truly needed to fix the problem of a presumably invalid marriage is to a) stop acting as if you’re married (basically, cut the hanky-panky) and then b) enter the Church through baptism or absolution. The marriage issue is not an impediment to conversion so long as the parties live morally; after all, the problem is the serious sin of adultery, not the pending investigation of one’s relation to a party no longer really figuring in one’s life (the anullment process).
So many times the advice to a couple seems to be, “Keep living in what we can only presume to be serious sin, then if we figure out that you weren’t actually previously married we’ll let you into the Church.” If these people believe the Catholic Faith, though, they should be told, and perhaps already know, that since we can only presume they are in an adulterous relationship, they need to stop that immediately. You don’t get to sin just because you’re not a member of the Church yet. Once you’ve ceased the presumed sin, you’re free to enter the Church, and hopefully things will turn out so that you can actually be married the person who has been living as your spouse. It may turn out, however, that you were in fact married to someone else and thus would need to live as brother and sister. That’s the hard truth, but what Christ demands. He says “Put your hand to the plow and don’t look back.” Not “Follow me if it turns out you can be married to the person you would like to be married to.” I don’t mean that to be a hard-nosed rant, just a more accurate view of the issues raised by the previous marriages and hopefully a call to the largest issues at stake.
In short then, my advice: Get people to stop sinning. Bring them into the Church. Sort out the marriage issue as quickly as possible.
This contrasts with: Let people keep (presumably) sinning. Delay the graces of communion with the Church until after the marriage issue has been sorted out. Bring them into the Church.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
True…poor phrasing on my part.
Yes and no. Again, I’m taking this from the RCIA program I know and haven’t studied the issue. But we have someone who is divorced and not remarried. While technically there is no marriage to worry about, he is still being strongly encouraged to pursue a declaration of nullity. This is in case someone should come along later and he wishes to remarry. He needs to know if that would be possible or not so that there won’t be a question of leaving the church later because he wants to marry again.
Good point. But definitely a hard one to follow.
I’ve quoted this before. The “brother-sister” relationship really isn’t approved by the church. In truth, the parties should separate.
here’s the answer from one of EWTN’s experts:
Question from on 02-02-2007:
Can a catholic who is divorced and remarried receive communion if the couple agree to live chastely, as brother and sister? If so, are there other conditions necessary to allow them to receive communion? If they can, is there any church document that says so?
Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 02-04-2007:
This is answered the the Apostolic Exhortation of Pope John Paul II Familaris Consortio On the Family, issued in 1983.
Generally speaking, no. If Catholic who is divorced and remarried outside of the Catholic Church wishes to receive the sacraments, then he or she is to separate from the invalid marriage.
Of course, such individual may choose to petition for a declaration of nullity for the prior marriage and, if the prior marriage is determined to be invalid by a Church Tribunal, then the couple may convalidate the marriage, go to confession and return to the reception of Holy Communion.
If this is not possible, then the couple is morally bound to separate.
The brother-sister relationship (where a couple makes separate sleeping arrangements and refrains from sexual activitiy) is only possible when there is some grave reason for them not to separate, such as the presence of minor children in the home.
However, even in this case, the couple is only permitted to receive the sacraments in places where their condition is not known to others in order to avoid scandal.
And in this case, once the children are grown, the couple is then obligated to separate.
There seems to be a lot of confusion with this brother-sister thing today, as if the Church is going around trying to police people’s bedrooms. This is not encouraged as a solution by the Church, only tolerated under conditions such as what I have described above. The Church wants people to enjoy sexual intimacy. In fact, it teaches that it is not just a right but also an obligation for married couples. But the Church just wants people to be validly married first.
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kage_ar
Guest
The person in question will get to know the folks on the Tribunal, in fact, they will most likely be on a first-name basis
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Most likely as invalid until each and every prior Marriage has been looked into.
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BeeSweet
Guest
It seems this would be a serious impediment to some people’s conversion. The particular individual I have in mind was married first as a teenager, and the next three marriages occurred under the age of 30, mostly for financial reasons (as it was communicated to me that is…). It does seem somewhat harsh to expect a person to rehash a time in their lives that was probably very painful, and which they probably have desperately tried put behind them.
It seems some consideration must be made for converts who are coming from a protestant background which does not consider marriage a sacrament. I could understand someone not having the fortitude to progress with conversion with such a challenge ahead of them.
It seems some consideration must be made for converts who are coming from a protestant background which does not consider marriage a sacrament. I could understand someone not having the fortitude to progress with conversion with such a challenge ahead of them.
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1ke
Guest
Yes, an impediment they created themselves.
The Cross seems rather harsh too, and yes Jesus got up on it.
What type of “consideration” did you have in mind?
The Church has no power to allow that which it cannot. God has ordained marriage to be permanent, and therefore the Church can only guard the divine law and teach it. She is not free to disregard it or ignore it.
Yes, that is quite possible. However, they are responsible for the Truth, and if they know the Church to be true cannot remain outsider Her without great spiritual peril.
Yes, it may mean taking up their cross and separating from their current invalid marriage.
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BeeSweet
Guest
Oh I don’t know really… I’ve never been part of one of these tribunals, I don’t know what goes on in one (and I pray never to have personal knowledge!). It seems somewhat obvious by the person’s actions though, that they didn’t have any real understanding of the vows they were taking. Just by virtue of the fact they took the same vows 5 times to 5 different people. That, plus the fact that most protestant faiths that I know of do not consider marriage a sacrament, so when they enter into it they’re not including God in the first place. Although with this particular individual, each marriage took place in a church with the ceremony being performed by a protestant minister. Seems to me some culpability is lost there somehow.
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jmcrae
Guest
In the old days, the Church used to turn such people away from instructions in the Catholic faith. They were simply told, “The Catholic Church is not for you. Best of luck in your future endeavors.”
I realize it must seem like a real inconvenience to have to go through the Tribunal process, especially in today’s impulsive, throw-away society, but without going through this process, the person is living a lie.
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puzzleannie
Guest
each previous marriage would have to be investigated by the canon law tribunal of the diocese, beginning with the earliest one, and a judgement rendered on each, to determine if this person is currently validly married or is free to marry. absolutely no way on this forum to relate or debate all the possible ramifications of circumstances. this person needs an interview with the parish priest at the earliest opportunity.
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BeeSweet
Guest
Does a tribunal necessitate both parties of each marriage to be involved?
The person I have in mind has never expressed an interest in converting to Catholicism, I’m only daydreaming of their conversion and compiling information. Someday if they’re ever interested, I’d like to be able to speak on the subject from an informed position.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
If your question is of a couple who are living together, one wants to become Catholic, both have prior marriages do they both have to seek annulments of those prior Marriages? Yes, even the person who is not wishing to become Catholic.
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BeeSweet
Guest
The couple is married, and have been for at least seven years. Neither have expressed an interest in conversion. I’m just daydreaming of their conversion.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Well actually they think they have been married for the last seven years, Christ’s law does not allow a Christian to enter into several Marriages and it applies to all Christians, not just Catholics.
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jmcrae
Guest
Actually, it applies to everyone in the whole world - not just Christians. But it is much easier to prove to the Tribunal that a non-Christian did not have a proper concept of marriage at the time of the contract.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
I’m glad we’re picking on fine points here because it’s letting us create a much more nuanced (and thus more accurate) picture of the issues involved. The case you mention does raise a pastoral concern of making sure those converting are truly committed to the faith before they receive the obligations that come with it (it would be a quite serious sin for him to leave the Church after having entered, after all), but I still think that, ordinarily, a pastor would be abusing his office if he forced someone to undergo an anullment investigation as a prerequisite for entering the Church, since civil divorce does not impede one from becoming Catholic.
I’m glad you brought this up. By mentioning living as brother and sister I was kind of assuming an “at least.” In other words, if they can’t separate for some reason they must live at least that way, but you’re absolutely correct that they shouldn’t be living together otherwise. The point about receiving communion elsewhere is also important, and one many don’t know about. There is a great risk of scandal if that rule is not observed.
Since we see what serious and difficult ramifications might arise from a decision that the couple is not (and cannot be) married, though, I think you can see why I favor laying all those cards out on the table from the very beginning. Lots of programs seem to (and I’m not intimately involved with them, so I could be wrong) favor saying “Well, first you’ll have to get an anulment, and after this comes” - as if we can assume it will - “you’ll enter the Church with a convalidated marriage.” It seems the burden of separation would be doubly heavy and more likely to balk conversions if it came as a surprise at the end of the process rather than being laid out from the start.
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jmcrae
Guest
Absolutely. In our Diocese, the current rule is that all participants in RCIA Inquiry must complete a Tribunal interview before entering the Catechesis period, in which it will be determined whether or not they are in a situation that will require the services of the Tribunal.
We are not to make any comment on the possible outcome of the Tribunal proceedings - we are simply to refer the participants to the Tribunal, and direct them to ask all of their questions about the process there. Of course, we still have well-meaning Catechists who tell people, “No problem, you will get your annulment in six months, and then you will be Confirmed in the Catholic Church.”
There are also a great many misunderstandings out there - I had one sponsor ask me (right in front of the participant) “Why is she being punished for her husband’s sin of divorce?” I said, “First she is not being punished, and second, she is living with a man who, in the eyes of the Church, is still married to someone else. Jesus had a name for this activity, and it is not a very nice name. This is why she needs to go to the Tribunal and get this situation sorted out, one way or the other. The Tribunal understands perfectly well that she is not at fault, here - nobody ever is. But the fact is, she has gone down a rabbit hole, and we must get her up out of it, before she can proceed to receive the Sacraments.”
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puzzleannie
Guest
that is beyond the scope of this forum, and belongs on the discussion of annulment, which has been exhaustively covered previously. for purposes of OP, which is about the conversion process, the person’s marital status must be determined and any problems rectified before the person is received into the Church, and if the pastor deems it best, before they even begin the preparation for initiation. Repeat, this person needs to see their pastor and have the annulment process explained as it pertains to their own circumstance.
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puzzleannie
Guest
discussions about the individual status of candidates should NEVER be carried out during RCIA classes, but always privately, with the pastor or the person he designates. There must be an interview at the beginning of the process, before the candidate joins RCIA, to determine, among other things, if there are marriage issues to be resolved. The sponsors should be educated about the process, but the NOT in a freewheeling discussion of other people’s private business.
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