Divorce and Remarriage

[Byzantine_Wolf]

No, it’s not difficult to make the case. I’ve been a Catholic for almost fifty years now. I come from a long line of Irish Catholics, both sides of my family and I know how strict the Church is on the issue of re-marriage. Are you somehow implying that the Catholic Church, the Church that doesn’t allow you to participate in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, if your marriage is not in order, is not strict when it comes to the issue of re-marriage? If so, then you are not as familiar with Catholicism, as I once thought you were, based on other posts, on other threads here at CAF. The Catholic Church takes marriage very seriously and to imply otherwise would be wrong. I can’t tell you how many Catholics that I have met over the years who have “self-excommunicated” themselves, for lack of a better term, based on their marital status.

The question here is not, “Once upon a time, in 2010, a Catholic Pope, responding to worldwide publicity involving a prominent, Catholic, elected official who had an improper annulment… in the two thousand years of Catholicism…”

Again, you’re ignoring the argumentation Nine Two is trying to make. No one is saying the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t have strict rules, and we don’t have to imply that the current Roman Catholic Church doesn’t “take marriage very seriously”…the numbers presented in the links have shown that. Likewise, the argument is NOT that a Catholic Pope responded to the publicity an elected official (that’s a strawman). The articles clearly state that the problem is rampant worldwide annulments, and that was what the Pope was responding to in his announcements. With all due respect, did you even read the articles? (At least, past the first paragraph of one to grab a sentence). Nine Two has made an argument, I backed it up with sources, and you have yet to really respond - you’ve simply kept repeating your OP.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Again, you’re ignoring the argumentation Nine Two is trying to make. No one is saying the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t have strict rules, and we don’t have to imply that the current Roman Catholic Church doesn’t “take marriage very seriously”…the numbers presented in the links have shown that. Likewise, the argument is NOT that a Catholic Pope responded to the publicity an elected official (that’s a strawman). The articles clearly state that the problem is rampant worldwide annulments, and that was what the Pope was responding to in his announcements. With all due respect, did you even read the articles? (At least, past the first paragraph of one to grab a sentence). Nine Two has made an argument, I backed it up with sources, and you have yet to really respond - you’ve simply kept repeating your OP.

And, instead of answering the question here, you seem bent on changing the discussion… Now, why’s that? Because you know I’m right? This thread is not about “Nine Two’s” post. Go back and read the first post here. Also, look up the definition of “strawman” and compare that with your posts here…

For you to deny the Catholic Church’s strict rules regarding marriage, compared to the rest of the Protestant world, is disingenuous.

To try to use News articles to prove your point, articles that demonstrate that the Catholic Church is going to get even tougher on this issue, is crazy.

 

[Jimmy_B]

The Catholic Church seems to have the strictest view towards multiple-marriages. Am I wrong? I believe that there are many, who are former Catholics because of this. Does this mean that the Church is wrong? I don’t think so. For example, birth control was forbidden in every denomination, up until about 40 years ago and now, today the Catholic Church stands alone on that issue and I believe that got that right as well.

Your thoughts?

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Byzantine_Wolf,

Again, you’re ignoring the argumentation Nine Two is trying to make. No one is saying the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t have strict rules, and we don’t have to imply that the current Roman Catholic Church doesn’t “take marriage very seriously”…the numbers presented in the links have shown that. Likewise, the argument is NOT that a Catholic Pope responded to the publicity an elected official (that’s a strawman). The articles clearly state that the problem is rampant worldwide annulments, and that was what the Pope was responding to in his announcements. With all due respect, did you even read the articles? (At least, past the first paragraph of one to grab a sentence). Nine Two has made an argument, I backed it up with sources, and you have yet to really respond - you’ve simply kept repeating your OP.

I believe the intention of the OP is to discuss the strictness from the doctrinal- canonical perspective. There will always be evidences of variance from official Church teaching in morals - because nobody’s perfect. For example, some of the greatest abortion rates are from Catholic and Orthodox countries. Are you then going to argue that the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches on the matter is lax? I hope not.

Here are several examples -

1. The doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage is officially held and taught by the Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches. So doctrinally speaking, they are more strict than the EO or Protestants.
2. The Coptic Orthodox Church permits divorce and remarriage under one circumstance - apostasy (adultery being regarded as a subset of apostasy). The Catholic Church does not. So doctrinally speaking, the Catholic Church is more strict than the Coptic Orthodox Church.
3. The Eastern Orthodox church permits divorce and remarriage if a spouse becomes mentally disabled. The Catholic and OO Churches don’t allow this.
4. The Russian Orthodox Church permits divorce and remarriage if a spouse is imprisoned for an indefinite period of time. None of the other apostolic Churches allow this.

Etc.

Blessings

 

[Jimmy_B]

Given the widespread use of the annulment system (whether it is a case of abuse or not, its use is endemic) I think it is hard to argue that the Catholic Church is the strictest.

Hello Nine_Two,

I have read you posted article and I understand where your coming from but I think that those articles just prove my point that the Catholic Church is strict when it comes to marriage and divorce. Those articles show that the Pope is on top of this issue, right? Additionally, wouldn’t you agree that the Orthodox Church, which is part of the Catholic Church, is also strict when it comes to marriage and divorce, especially when compared to many non-Catholic Christian denominations… especially those that have only been around for 50-70 years or so?

Where are the news articles regarding the Protestant response to marriage and divorce, other than the fairly recent news regarding a non-Catholic Christian denomination that promoted an opening gay man to the rank of Bishop and those non-Catholic Christian denominations that approve of homosexual marriage?

Thank you for your post.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Dear brother Byzantine_Wolf,

I believe the intention of the OP is to discuss the strictness from the doctrinal- canonical perspective. There will always be evidences of variance from official Church teaching in morals - because nobody’s perfect. For example, some of the greatest abortion rates are from Catholic and Orthodox countries. Are you then going to argue that the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches on the matter is lax? I hope not.

Here are several examples -

1. The doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage is officially held and taught by the Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches. So doctrinally speaking, they are more strict than the EO or Protestants.
2. The Coptic Orthodox Church permits divorce and remarriage under one circumstance - apostasy (adultery being regarded as a subset of apostasy). The Catholic Church does not. So doctrinally speaking, the Catholic Church is more strict than the Coptic Orthodox Church.
3. The Eastern Orthodox church permits divorce and remarriage if a spouse becomes mentally disabled. The Catholic and OO Churches don’t allow this.
4. The Russian Orthodox Church permits divorce and remarriage if a spouse is imprisoned for an indefinite period of time. None of the other apostolic Churches allow this.

Etc.

Blessings

Excellent post! Thank you!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There are tons of divorces being sanctioned in the Catholic Church but they’re under the guise of “annulments.” Annulments are basically a declaration that a valid marriage never existed. How often does that REALLY happen?

And as far as birth control goes, most Catholics use it, upwards of 90%.

 

[Jimmy_B]

There are tons of divorces being sanctioned in the Catholic Church but they’re under the guise of “annulments.” Annulments are basically a declaration that a valid marriage never existed. How often does that REALLY happen?

And as far as birth control goes, most Catholics use it, upwards of 90%.

Lol… you still are not willing to compare Catholic doctrine on Marriage with non-Catholic Christian groups… :doh2:

I guess you can drag a gurneyhalleck1 to water but to can make em drink.

You are still confusing behavior and official Church teachings.

I read a statistic somewhere that the divorce rate and the suicide rate are lowest in Catholicism.

Have you seen that before?

 

[Publisher]

Help me out here…so what is being said is that the Catholic church has one if not THE strictest “rule” about divorce and remarriage…even though in actuality the “annulment” process is being used in the same manner as “divorce” is used in Protestant circles?

Many Protestant groups…as well as Orthodox…have a stance against divorce that in actuality “mirrors” what happens in their congregations. Marriages fail…people get a civil divorce…most Protestant churches DO NOT have a process of “annulment”…I guess if one wants to make the assertion that even though a couple live in the bonds of matrimony for 25 years and have multiple children and their marriage fails…they can still petition the Catholic church for an annulment…the civil divorce would have to also occur…if the “spin a nice yarn” and get enough “witnesses” to back the “impediment to a sacramental marriage really having taken place”…then the “difference” is really “no difference”…except in Protestant eyes…and most people who view the Catholic annulment system…if those “divorces” in Protestant churches were called “annulments”…it would be acceptable?

Many Protestants just smile and shake our head when a Catholic says…“We don’t believe in divorce.” If it “walks like a duck…quacks like a duck…” ???

We understand what the “official” teaching of the CC is…whether it is enforced or not is another issue.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Help me out here…so what is being said is that the Catholic church has one if not THE strictest “rule” about divorce and remarriage…even though in actuality the “annulment” process is being used in the same manner as “divorce” is used in Protestant circles?

Many Protestant groups…as well as Orthodox…have a stance against divorce that in actuality “mirrors” what happens in their congregations. Marriages fail…people get a civil divorce…most Protestant churches DO NOT have a process of “annulment”…I guess if one wants to make the assertion that even though a couple live in the bonds of matrimony for 25 years and have multiple children and their marriage fails…they can still petition the Catholic church for an annulment…the civil divorce would have to also occur…if the “spin a nice yarn” and get enough “witnesses” to back the “impediment to a sacramental marriage really having taken place”…then the “difference” is really “no difference”…except in Protestant eyes…and most people who view the Catholic annulment system…if those “divorces” in Protestant churches were called “annulments”…it would be acceptable?

Many Protestants just smile and shake our head when a Catholic says…“We don’t believe in divorce.” If it “walks like a duck…quacks like a duck…” ???

We understand what the “official” teaching of the CC is…whether it is enforced or not is another issue.

Hello Publisher,

Your comments are in blue, mine in black -

Help me out here…so what is being said is that the Catholic church has one if not THE strictest “rule” about divorce and remarriage…

Yes.

even though in actuality the “annulment” process is being used in the same manner as “divorce” is used in Protestant circles?

From personal experience, being a Catholic and coming from a Catholic family, I don’t think it is. That’s not to say that there haven’t been abuses in that past… that’s why they are called “abuses”, because that behavior goes against the intent of Catholic doctrine. Then again, St. Paul’s letters were used to correct those who deviated from the Church. Nothing has changed as far as that goes.

Many Protestant groups…as well as Orthodox…have a stance against divorce that in actuality “mirrors” what happens in their congregations. Marriages fail…people get a civil divorce…

The Catholic Church does not recognize civil marriages, civil divorces or civil annulments.

most Protestant churches DO NOT have a process of “annulment”…I guess if one wants to make the assertion that even though a couple live in the bonds of matrimony for 25 years and have multiple children and their marriage fails…they can still petition the Catholic church for an annulment…

That’s a good example of abuse and what the Pope is trying to correct. At least he’s trying to correct the problem, what are the other non-Catholic denominations doing about the marriage and divorce problem?

the civil divorce would have to also occur…if the “spin a nice yarn” and get enough “witnesses” to back the “impediment to a sacramental marriage really having taken place”…then the “difference” is really “no difference”…except in Protestant eyes…and most people who view the Catholic annulment system…if those “divorces” in Protestant churches were called “annulments”…it would be acceptable?

That’s not true, there are many Protestant, non-Catholic Christian denominations where divorce, or the number of marriages isn’t a factor, what so ever. You know that. I’m assuming that because of that and other liberal views, that that is why you are a Quaker and not a Evangelical, Fundamentalist or Born-again Christian… am I wrong?

Many Protestants just smile and shake our head when a Catholic says…“We don’t believe in divorce.” If it “walks like a duck…quacks like a duck…” ???

If they do, it’s because they don’t know how things really are in the Catholic Church.

We understand what the “official” teaching of the CC is…whether it is enforced or not is another issue

There you go… that’s it, it was in your last sentence but that’s it, right there. And, apparently, according to the news reports posted on this thread the Pope is trying to enforce those rules.

Even with the so-called “widespread abuses”, you know that the Catholic Church is very strict when it comes to marriage and divorce. I haven’t even got into the whole “mixed-marriage” thing, where a non-Catholic wants to marry a Catholic… You guys are not seriously trying to compare Catholic doctrine on marriage to Protestant denominations, including those who provide, “drive-thru” marriages in Las Vegas… those aren’t Catholic Churches. I think you know what I’m talking about here.

Thank you for your post!

 

[Publisher]

Friend Jimmy,

My being a Friend has little or nothing to do with what is allowed or not allowed based on my “liberal beliefs”…I didn’t always have a “liberal” belief system…but after more than 30 years of study, history, prayer, worship in many different faith traditions…I have found being a Friend the best expression of “true Christianity” as I understand it…

As I said…I understand the “official” postion of the CC…whether in actuality the “official position” is adhered to or not in practical matters…a doctrine not believed or adhered to doesn’t make a “strict policy.”

 

[bearcat101]

The Catholic Church seems to have the strictest view towards multiple-marriages. Am I wrong? I believe that there are many, who are former Catholics because of this. Does this mean that the Church is wrong? I don’t think so. For example, birth control was forbidden in every denomination, up until about 40 years ago and now, today the Catholic Church stands alone on that issue and I believe that got that right as well.

Your thoughts?

Divorce is permitted in cases of sexual immorality, right?

 

[bearcat101]

I order of strictness:

1. Catholic Church
2. Oriental Orthodox Church
3. EO - original four Patriarchates
4. EO - Patriarchates within the former USSR
5. Protestants

Blessings

which Protestants?? or does it matter??

 

[Jimmy_B]

I find it very interesting how hard that the non-Catholics here are fighting the truth found in Catholicism and the fact that the Catholic Church does have a strict stance on marriage and divorce, just ask an observant Catholic who is trying to get married in the Church. This is common knowledge and you know it is. Is it because deep down, you know that the Catholic Church is right on this issue and that this and other important moral issues that the Catholic Church got right, proves, which Church is the true Christian Church founded by Christ? Is that why you feel that you must take the Protestant position on this issue?

 

[bearcat101]

I find it very interesting how hard that the non-Catholics here are fighting the truth found in Catholicism and the fact that the Catholic Church does have a strict stance on marriage and divorce, just ask an observant Catholic who is trying to get married in the Church. This is common knowledge and you know it is. Is it because deep down, you know that the Catholic Church is right on this issue and that this and other important moral issues that the Catholic Church got right, proves, which Church is the true Christian Church founded by Christ? Is that why you feel that you must take the Protestant position on this issue?

Forgive me but I don’t believe I understand what you are saying here.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Friend Jimmy,

My being a Friend has little or nothing to do with what is allowed or not allowed based on my “liberal beliefs”…I didn’t always have a “liberal” belief system…but after more than 30 years of study, history, prayer, worship in many different faith traditions…I have found being a Friend the best expression of “true Christianity” as I understand it…

As I said…I understand the “official” postion of the CC…whether in actuality the “official position” is adhered to or not in practical matters…a doctrine not believed or adhered to doesn’t make a “strict policy.”

Thank you, I appreciate your friendship…and the lively discussions. But, why defend those denominations who aren’t as strict on marriage and divorce as your denomination? Like, those in Vegas, I don’t get it.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Forgive me but I don’t believe I understand what you are saying here.

That’s ok, I think that it’s fairly well known that the Catholic Church’s position on marriage and divorce is strict and to be honest with you, I didn’t expect such resistance here, for something that is common knowledge.

 

[bearcat101]

That’s ok, I think that it’s fairly well known that the Catholic Church’s position on marriage and divorce is strict and to be honest with you, I didn’t expect such resistance here, for something that is common knowledge.

Oh ok. The only question I really have is why Catholics do not recognize or permit divorce but yet Jesus says in Matthew that divorce is recognized and allowed for instances of sexual immorality.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Oh ok. The only question I really have is why Catholics do not recognize or permit divorce but yet Jesus says in Matthew that divorce is recognized and allowed for instances of sexual immorality.

Here is a Catechism search results for the word “divorce”. I hope this helps. Far too much to post here.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Gurney,

There are tons of divorces being sanctioned in the Catholic Church but they’re under the guise of “annulments.” Annulments are basically a declaration that a valid marriage never existed. How often does that REALLY happen?

The statistics for annulments are high, but there is something about that statistic which no one has ever brought up (as far as I’ve seen). I think everyone understands and accepts that the Church (Catholic, Orthodox, or whatever) does not accept civil marriages as valid marriages. I mean, is anyone really so obtuse as to use the canard “annulments are just divorces in disguise” in such a circumstance?

The fact of the matter is, the statistics for annulments include all those people who have never had a church marriage (but only a civil marriage), and ends up wanting to marry someone else later on in the Church. I can imagine that perhaps 90% of annulments are for this reason. In the Catholic Church, though a prior civil marriage is naturally invalid, a declaration of nullity is still required. This results in an explosion in the formal annulment statistics.

In distinction, in the non-Catholic apostolic Churches, a prior civil marriage does not require a formal declaration of nullity by the Church. The Church just assumes the marriage never occured at all. Thus, the annulment statistics are low compared to the Catholic Church’s.

So I would request non-Catholics - especially those from apostolic churches - to stop throwing around this canard that “annulments are just an excuse for divorce in the Catholic Church.” If your Church had the same ecclesiastical requirements as the Latin Church with regards to annulments, your annulment statistics would skyrocket as well.

And as far as birth control goes, most Catholics use it, upwards of 90%.

So are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches people to use birth control? In case you did not read all the earlier posts, the purpose of this OP is to discuss doctrinal-canonical standards. Do you think your statistic is relevant in any way to the purpose of the OP?

Blessings,
Marduk