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mardukm
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Careful, folks. I think publicly questioning or discussing moderator actions is also grounds for suspension. I’ve you’ve got concerns, take it up directly with the mods.
Blessings
Blessings
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Byzantine_Wolf
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I’ve got concerns!
marches around with a sign FREE GURNEY HALLECK! FREE GURNEY HALLECK!
You’re at fault! Ban Nine_Two! He’s in cahoots with the guva’ment.For questioning my stereotyping of Newfies.
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1beleevr
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You’re probably right about that(being strict). Which book of the Bible addresses birth control
You have to admit that people like David and Solomon, among others totally violated God’s marriage laws! So, if a catholic wants a divorce, does it essentially become an annulment? A catholic friend of mine, was married to his wife for 28 years, but the last 6, he was living with another woman, who bore him 2 children! He claims that he finally got a divorce, and was living with the mother of his youngest children
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Vico
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This is going off topic.
There certainly is reference to birth control by abortifactants in the Bible. Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 9:21, 18:23, 21:8, and 22:2 refers to witchcraft as sinful, which is the Greek word pharmakeia. It’s common use was abortifactant that can surely apply today to methods like IUD and artificial birth control (pill) which can bring abortion by prevention of implantation, and achieve the birth control purpose of phamakeia.
In addition to above, these are prohibited:
Withdrawal/wasting seed (Genesis 38:8-10)
Male homosexual intercourse (Leviticus 20:13)
Male bestiality (Leviticus 20:15)
Female bestiality (Leviticus 20:16)
Intercourse with a menstrous woman (Leviticus 20:18)
There certainly is reference to birth control by abortifactants in the Bible. Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 9:21, 18:23, 21:8, and 22:2 refers to witchcraft as sinful, which is the Greek word pharmakeia. It’s common use was abortifactant that can surely apply today to methods like IUD and artificial birth control (pill) which can bring abortion by prevention of implantation, and achieve the birth control purpose of phamakeia.
In addition to above, these are prohibited:
Withdrawal/wasting seed (Genesis 38:8-10)
Male homosexual intercourse (Leviticus 20:13)
Male bestiality (Leviticus 20:15)
Female bestiality (Leviticus 20:16)
Intercourse with a menstrous woman (Leviticus 20:18)
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Byzantine_Wolf
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Reuben_J
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As with other posters, citing what Catholics (or Protestants) do in their personal lives does not contribute to what the OP wants in this thread.You’re probably right about that(being strict). Which book of the Bible addresses birth control
People may want to know why some Protestants denominations change their mind about birth control though. Was that an admission that their church was once wrong on this issue?
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1beleevr
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On the contrary, it shows that those who profess to be devout whatever, can be arrogantly promoting direct violation of said doctrine! I know a Protestant pastor, who was having an affair with a woman in his congregation, and still preaching on Sunday morning!
Or what of the couple that serves the Lord together(street ministry, feeding the homeless, leading Bible studies,etc) and are living together and having sex, without the benefit of marriage? If one is doing things such as these, including catholics who have beer blasts on Easter Sunday, or sleep with women other than their wives, then they do not need to proclaim their undying devotion to their church or their saviour, They need to fall on their knees, repent and turn from their sinful ways! So, regardless of what one church or another teaches, or what their authority is, people are still in the flessh and will do what they do! and it does reflect on their religion, no matter what anyone says!
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rev_kevin
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Is there any good reason to divorce according to the Catholic Church?
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Jimmy_B
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What does an individual act of sin, have to do with a Christian truth? Behavior is either right or it’s wrong. Rules or laws shouldn’t be changed simply because people may not obey those rules or laws. Birth control is an excellent example; The break-down in the family and rise in divorces rates and number of un-wed mothers can be traced back to legalized abortion and the birth control pill and other modern forms of contraceptives and so can liberal views towards other, previously considered, deviant sexual acts. The “Slippery slope”, truly does exist… Another poster here made some comment like, “So, should people have babies even if they can’t afford them?”. Well, my answer is, people are having babies that they “can’t afford” at a higher rate than ever and there are way more children born into a single parent homes today than ever before, so apparently birth control isn’t making things better. … Real Christians, wouldn’t be arguing about this stuff 60 or 70 years ago. God save us all.On the contrary, it shows that those who profess to be devout whatever, can be arrogantly promoting direct violation of said doctrine! I know a Protestant pastor, who was having an affair with a woman in his congregation, and still preaching on Sunday morning!
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Vico
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Yes, civil divorce, but one is still married in the Church.
**2383 **The *separation *of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.176 If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
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rev_kevin
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Ok. Is there any way you can not still be married in the Chruch?
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1beleevr
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I am talking about “devout”
Christians, who profess to follow every Commandment, go to mass, and confession, donate, feed the hungry, etc, while engaging in immoral behavior; and being proud of it(the behavior I mean).Does birth control also mean, having someone else’s baby while married to another? Does the fact that Onan refused to impregnate Er’s wife dictate what birth control is? Was this not just an act of disobedience? Are all catholic divorces listed as annulments? So, yes individual behavior is important to consider when speaking of doctrine; we are all individually accountable to God for our behavior, but churches want to publicly renounce others for behaviors they themselves, or their congregants are engaged in! Matthew 7:1-5.
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Jimmy_B
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We are all sinners but I don’t believe that most “devout Christians”, “engage in immoral behavior and are proud of it”. You might want to find another circle of Christian or Catholic friends if this is what you believe. Moreover, want do you mean by “…churches want to publicly renounce others for behaviors they themselves, or their congregants are engaged in!” Does this mean that we should have no standards at all? Churches don’t publically “renounce others”, Churches define Christian doctrine and people have free will to obey that doctrine or not… I don’t get your point here, can you please explain your comments?..I am talking about “devout”
Matthew 7:5 say’s - “…remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.”
If people aren’t allowed to “judge” bad behavior, then why do we have police, courts, judges and prisons? Why is sin described in the Bible? My experience is that those people who say “it’s wrong to judge” are the ones who don’t want to be judged… because they want to continue their own bad behavior, without the guilt or consequences associated with that bad behavior.
Please explain your last post.
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Vico
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If a Catholic did not marry with Catholic Church approval then the marriage has lack of form, so it would not be an impediment to another Catholic marriage later. Technically documentation has to be provided.
There are three rare situations of dissolution:
- Valid but unconsummated Catholic marriage. In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul instructs on problem marriages verses 10-11 discusses sacramental marriages (marriages between two baptized people) that they are indissoluble. But they must be consummated for that. (They are presumed consummated if the couple cohabitates, until proven otherwise.)
- The Pauline Privilege (two non-Christians, natural marriage) for a just cause (See Ezra 10:1-14) A Pauline Privilege is the dissolution of a purely natural marriage which had been contracted between two non-Christians, one of whom has since become a Christian.
- The Petrine Privilege (non-Christian and a Christian, natural marriage)* rarely granted* by the Roman Pontiff in “favor of the faith” (must intend to marry a baptised Christian). This has the same basis as the Pauline Privilege in scripture.
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beehumble
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Divorce/remarriage is a tough one that has to left to the Mercy of God. His rules are clear - a valid marriage is indissoluble.
For those who break the rule through no fault of their own (the other partner obtains a civil divorce) or even through their own fault I suppose, and remarry, there is only the Mercy of God.
A close relative -his wife of 31 years/ 2 grown children - wants a divorce to go live in Mexico near some close friends of hers who retired there. He is charitable in many ways, even volunteers once a week to teach autistic kids tennis at a state institution (he teaches it at a Community College). He has helped some of those autistic kids come out of their shell, in fact.
He has never had an affair - not the type - family man all the way, always home every evening etc puttering around the house etc - worked since the age of 19 at the same corporate America job for over 30 yrs, and recently retired at a very young age (prepared for retirement his entire life). They went on family vacations - Walt Disney World etc - kids love him and feel they have the best of dads.
But alas he will be divorced within days -just waiting for the divorce decree to be signed off by the judge.
He is devastated and heart broken. In shock. He seems at times like a zombie these last few months while this has been going on.
He told me he cannot be alone for the rest of his life (he is in young fifties) and will find somebody. He is Catholic but has not given a thought to annulment or any of that. He hasn’t even thought about how he cannot remarry or receive sacraments if he does. He feels he did nothing wrong and he can’t stand to be alone so will find somebody else.
So as I said, it is a tough one. Satan has broken many good people throughout the past century.
All that is left is the Mercy of God. But He promises it will be enough.
For those who break the rule through no fault of their own (the other partner obtains a civil divorce) or even through their own fault I suppose, and remarry, there is only the Mercy of God.
A close relative -his wife of 31 years/ 2 grown children - wants a divorce to go live in Mexico near some close friends of hers who retired there. He is charitable in many ways, even volunteers once a week to teach autistic kids tennis at a state institution (he teaches it at a Community College). He has helped some of those autistic kids come out of their shell, in fact.
He has never had an affair - not the type - family man all the way, always home every evening etc puttering around the house etc - worked since the age of 19 at the same corporate America job for over 30 yrs, and recently retired at a very young age (prepared for retirement his entire life). They went on family vacations - Walt Disney World etc - kids love him and feel they have the best of dads.
But alas he will be divorced within days -just waiting for the divorce decree to be signed off by the judge.
He is devastated and heart broken. In shock. He seems at times like a zombie these last few months while this has been going on.
He told me he cannot be alone for the rest of his life (he is in young fifties) and will find somebody. He is Catholic but has not given a thought to annulment or any of that. He hasn’t even thought about how he cannot remarry or receive sacraments if he does. He feels he did nothing wrong and he can’t stand to be alone so will find somebody else.
So as I said, it is a tough one. Satan has broken many good people throughout the past century.
All that is left is the Mercy of God. But He promises it will be enough.
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1beleevr
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C’mon Jimmy, you know exacly what I’m talking about! People on this forum have repeatedly lambasted the cc over the priest sex abuse scandal, while the priests get reassigned rather than dismissed! Then the catholics bash the Protestants and other non-catholics for condoning abortion and divorce and remarriage! True story: A catholic man wants an annulment, based on his claim that the marriage was not consummated. There are two(2) children from this union!We are all sinners but I don’t believe that most “devout Christians”, “engage in immoral behavior and are proud of it”. You might want to find another circle of Christian or Catholic friends if this is what you believe. Moreover, want do you mean by “…churches want to publicly renounce others for behaviors they themselves, or their congregants are engaged in!” Does this mean that we should have no standards at all? Churches don’t publically “renounce others”, Churches define Christian doctrine and people have free will to obey that doctrine or not… I don’t get your point here, can you please explain your comments?..
Matthew 7:5 say’s - “…remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.”
If people aren’t allowed to “judge” bad behavior, then why do we have police, courts, judges and prisons? Why is sin described in the Bible? My experience is that those people who say “it’s wrong to judge” are the ones who don’t want to be judged… because they want to continue their own bad behavior, without the guilt or consequences associated with that bad behavior.
Please explain your last post.
Not all Protestants are liberals nor do they condone abortion. I am sure there are radical factions which not only allow abortion, but probably even encourage and support gay marriage as well. The percentage of those “devout” Christians who are engaged in immoral behavior is probably less than 50%, but that doesn’t make it right! And as far as judging is concerned, we all do it, feeling as though we are ordained by God to; but not always using Godly standards to judge. And some judge others without the benefit of having all of the information, before making said judgement. Listen, I believe in marriage, and hate divorce, but it happens all the time. Jesus said that the only condition for writing a divorcement agreement was under unfaithfulness.
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Reuben_J
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You are quite determined to drag this discussion to what Catholics are doing. Poor OP – he is not even allowed to decide on what to discuss on his thread.On the contrary, it shows that those who profess to be devout whatever, can be arrogantly promoting direct violation of said doctrine! I know a Protestant pastor, who was having an affair with a woman in his congregation, and still preaching on Sunday morning!
We know what Catholics are doing and what some of them do is certainly not nice. We know too a few of our priests are even pedophiles.
But if you are saying that the standard of marriage should not be high because people cannot follow it, are you saying then that God should not make the sixth Commandment since nearly everybody is committing adultery – Catholics and perhaps someone in your parish alike, and that may include some of my priests and your pastors as well. Is this what you are really trying to say here?
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rinnie
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But what does ones sins have to do with God’s commandment? Let me ask you this, Lets say that yes there are 2 children from a union. And then years later the one hears that the other is gayC’mon Jimmy, you know exacly what I’m talking about! People on this forum have repeatedly lambasted the cc over the priest sex abuse scandal, while the priests get reassigned rather than dismissed! Then the catholics bash the Protestants and other non-catholics for condoning abortion and divorce and remarriage! True story: A catholic man wants an annulment, based on his claim that the marriage was not consummated. There are two(2) children from this union!
This is something that was hidden from the other, would you still claim this marriage was consummated?Now lets talk about the Priest. What about the Priest that was not guilty. But is still judged by many.
God knows the truth. Many people love to judge eachother without knowing all of the facts.
Now back to the question. Yes I believe even in this day and age the CC holds a high standard to Marrriage.
I also do not see where Jesus states that a you can get a divorce for unfaithfulness. I believe that Jesus stated something about hardness of hearts!
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stormy99
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**Unfortunately it doesn’t always happen that way…but I agree with the one marriage and no divorce…just some times life gets in the way.
stormy**
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