Divorce and Remarriage

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks, I was knighted by Elizabeth II last Thursday I actually think knighthood in the middle ages is fascinating. I think in Catholic medievel Europe, with heraldry and the chivalry, training, intense talent, and bravery it entailed, it was truly dignified and classy. The idea of knights defending women, children, and the helpless is truly a Christian ideal and I love it. But what I truly HATE is the way knighthood is doled out nowday. Lame. “Knighting” guys like Paul McCartney, Elton John, etc? Come on…lame.

Jimmy_B:
Thank you Sir!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Thanks, I was knighted by Elizabeth II last Thursday I actually think knighthood in the middle ages is fascinating. I think in Catholic medievel Europe, with heraldry and the chivalry, training, intense talent, and bravery it entailed, it was truly dignified and classy. The idea of knights defending women, children, and the helpless is truly a Christian ideal and I love it. But what I truly HATE is the way knighthood is doled out nowday. Lame. “Knighting” guys like Paul McCartney, Elton John, etc? Come on…lame.

Thank you Sir!

Well, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were recently Knighted. After all, you are a Captain, in command of a Galaxy Class, Federation Starship, the USS Enterprise so… “Make it so”…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I prefer the old Constitution Class starships like on the old show!! I like old over new anyday. Give me a 1970 Dodge Challenger RT 440 magnum anyday over the new cars!

Well, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were recently Knighted. After all, you are a Captain, in command of a Galaxy Class, Federation Starship, the USS Enterprise so… “Make it so”…

http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/lifeline-live/2010/06/02/patrickstewartx-large.jpg

 

[stormy99]

Have any of your gone through the process by which the Church declares your marriage invalid? It first begins at the Parish level talking to a priest, we have two…it was a long talk about an hour. I talked he listened and asked questions etc. He had the paper work I needed to begin the process…at the same time I was going through RCIA and my husband was going through chemo and radiation for an agressive cancer. He is Catholic I was not, our youngest son converted…

I had to locate on my own my first husband. To be fair, when I found where he was, I called him and told him what I was doing and the situation in our home. He was always a kind person and that had not changed and he said whatever I needed him to do…

Witness were listed…pages of questions were answered and they were extremely personal, soul searching questions which left me wondering what I was thinking marrying a Mormon and being young at the time…it made me think how I messed up two lives. At that point, I was literally disowned by my own Father, who called me dead to him…life was a mess and I caved and left because my mother had a nervous breakdown. This was not her fault but my father’s…ok…all those things had to written down and thought about yet again…my present husband had his own problems at the time and my son gave me the support I needed and believe it or not so did my ex husband…he was better than my present husband about it and still is…

RCIA and my priest pulled me through this whole mess time and time again. I set my sights on being confirmed at the Easter Vigil and our Priest made it happen…my present husband had to agree that we live as brother and sister…so I could be confirmed…needless to say he wasn’t pleased but I stood my ground on this one because more than anything I wanted to become Catholic…I found my Home in the church.

The sister at the Marriage Tribunal was brutal to all the witness, none of them knew my lst husband and I when we were married, we lived in Utah and CA…

There were many things to be turned in and I did them all in a timely manner time and time again…my Priest said…you are determined and organized and I was…

There is a Defender of the Bond whose sole purpose to defend the marriage bond…we were not married in the Catholic church but that didn’t matter at all…he pulled out all the stops…his interview was traumatic, but I lived through it…and they declared my lst marriage invalid on two reasons…intent to deceive by my first husband, not informing me of all that went on in the Mormon Church and grave lack of discretionary judgement on my part…at the time to get away from an abusive home, I would of done anything and yes I had to tell them all of that…I mean down to how I was disciplined as a child…and since I was willfull and stubborn for me it was the belt…but I never cried, just did it…

Every bit of everything was told to the Marriage Tribunal…I think the entire time I was working on it I was crying but I did it…because I wanted something very important to me…the Catholic Church and I wanted my husband to come Home to his childhood religion and he did…

The Church does not hand notice of invalidity of marriage like party favors…I went through a lot to get it and dragged my ex and his wife through the process…but he’s still good about it all…

My husband never figured out why I became a Catholic…he’s happy but hasn’t a clue…you search for where you belong for so long and when you find it…well you would go through anything to be at Mass, anything…

I do not take my faith lightly at all…I believe it’s a privilege to be a Catholic…and I try daily to be worthy to say I am a Catholic…

My second marriage has been no picnic…not at all…but I never gave up and it would of been so easy to just say…done and take the kids and leave but I didn’t…

God understands mistakes…and being human we make them a lot, but if we learn from them that’s what’s important…

So please don’t issue a blanket statement that there are too many annullments issued…without mine I would not of been able to have Catholic wedding vows with my ill husband…and without the help of my Parish Priest who knows where I’d be now…but thankfully do to kind people, I’m in communion with God in the Catholic Church and I’m grateful every day.

sorry this was so long.

stormy

 

[Jimmy_B]

The Catholic Church seems to have the strictest view towards multiple-marriages. Am I wrong? I believe that there are many, who are former Catholics because of this. Does this mean that the Church is wrong? I don’t think so. For example, birth control was forbidden in every denomination, up until about 40 years ago and now, today the Catholic Church stands alone on that issue and I believe that got that right as well.

Your thoughts?

 

[flower_of_God]

The Catholic Church seems to have the strictest view towards multiple-marriages. Am I wrong? I believe that there are many, who are former Catholics because of this. Does this mean that the Church is wrong? I don’t think so. For example, birth control was forbidden in every denomination, up until about 40 years ago and now, today the Catholic Church stands alone on that issue and I believe that got that right as well.

Your thoughts?

How the Catholic Church stand alone on this issue? The Orthodox Church is more drastic in this matter. They don’;t accept even the calender, it is considered sin as well.

If someone leaves the Catholic Church only because this reason… it is a shame

 

[flower_of_God]

Dear brother Byzantine_Wolf,

I believe the intention of the OP is to discuss the strictness from the doctrinal- canonical perspective. There will always be evidences of variance from official Church teaching in morals - because nobody’s perfect. For example, some of the greatest abortion rates are from Catholic and Orthodox countries. Are you then going to argue that the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches on the matter is lax? I hope not.

Here are several examples -

1. The doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage is officially held and taught by the Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches. So doctrinally speaking, they are more strict than the EO or Protestants.
2. The Coptic Orthodox Church permits divorce and remarriage under one circumstance - apostasy (adultery being regarded as a subset of apostasy). The Catholic Church does not. So doctrinally speaking, the Catholic Church is more strict than the Coptic Orthodox Church.
3. The Eastern Orthodox church permits divorce and remarriage if a spouse becomes mentally disabled. The Catholic and OO Churches don’t allow this.
4. The Russian Orthodox Church permits divorce and remarriage if a spouse is imprisoned for an indefinite period of time. None of the other apostolic Churches allow this.

Etc.

Blessings

Romanian Orthodox Church is very permissive in re-marriage. There are so many cases of remarriage, and orthodox people say no priest asked about the previous marriage, about the reasons of divorce. There are very permissive in this matter, unfortunately.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not sure to whom this statement is directed but your story does not alter the fact that there are a LOT of annulments doled out in the Catholic Church and the Holy Father is concerned about it. That’s just a fact. It doesn’t mean your annulment was frivolous at all; it’s just a fact. It’s kind of like making a statement about the California corrections system. I could say, based on the numbers, that most California inmates don’t come out changed men because the recitivism rate is off the hook. But some inmate somewhere had a good experience and is now a successful, thriving, educated, Christian man with a great life, reformed, etc. He wouldn’t like the blanket statement because he’s an example of the system working. But essentially the truth is still the truth. Sounds like you went through a lot and thanks be to God you’re happy now. blessings to you stormy.

So please don’t issue a blanket statement that there are too many annullments issued…without mine I would not of been able to have Catholic wedding vows with my ill husband…and without the help of my Parish Priest who knows where I’d be now…but thankfully do to kind people, I’m in communion with God in the Catholic Church and I’m grateful every day.

sorry this was so long.

stormy

 

[Jimmy_B]

How the Catholic Church stand alone on this issue? The Orthodox Church is more drastic in this matter. They don’;t accept even the calender, it is considered sin as well.

If someone leaves the Catholic Church only because this reason… it is a shame

I’m a Roman Catholic and I’m not an expert on the Orthodox Catholic Church, Eastern Church, when it comes to how they handle marriage or divorce. However, I assume they are strict… Multiple-marriages are not allowed in Catholicism…If I’m wrong, then please correct me. Usually, when I say “Catholic” here, I’m including our sister, Orthodox Catholic Church, which is also Catholic…We share a common belief in many… most areas, including the Sacraments…*I agree, “If someone leaves the Catholic Church only because of this reason… it is a shame”. *

 

[1beleevr]

“Sir” or “sir”?

Why, Sir of course!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Why, Sir of course!

Thank you Sir!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Last time I checked neither of you was knighted. Why don’t you start calling each other Admiral, Colonel, Commander, or Mr. President while you’re at it! Jedi Master is good, too!

Thank you Sir!

 

[Nine_Two]

Last time I checked neither of you was knighted. Why don’t you start calling each other Admiral, Colonel, Commander, or Mr. President while you’re at it! Jedi Master is good, too!

Good idea,

In the future I wish for all to refer to me as Captain Drill Sergent First Class.

 

[rinnie]

I’m not sure to whom this statement is directed but your story does not alter the fact that there are a LOT of annulments doled out in the Catholic Church and the Holy Father is concerned about it. That’s just a fact. It doesn’t mean your annulment was frivolous at all; it’s just a fact. It’s kind of like making a statement about the California corrections system. I could say, based on the numbers, that most California inmates don’t come out changed men because the recitivism rate is off the hook. But some inmate somewhere had a good experience and is now a successful, thriving, educated, Christian man with a great life, reformed, etc. He wouldn’t like the blanket statement because he’s an example of the system working. But essentially the truth is still the truth. Sounds like you went through a lot and thanks be to God you’re happy now. blessings to you stormy.

But gurney rather the Pope is concerned about the annulments or not has nothing to do with an annulment in itself.

Sure the Pope is concerned. But what he is concerned about is our society as a whole. I hope you are understanding what I am saying. It is not the annulment or the annulment process its what is the problem here with us.

What the Pope is saying is wait a minute, We need to bring in better education to show these People what a marriage IS in the CC. What it means, what it truly consists of.

I mean did your parents go to 6 months of classes when they got married? Did you? My brother is ten years older than I, I do not remember him going to marriage classes he is 57 I have to ask him if he did or not.

Back WHEN usually Catholic’s married Catholic’s or the other turned Catholic to be married in the CHurch. Now its mixed marriages. You do not have to marry a Catholic to be married in the Church.

Do you see what I am saying, how can a non-Catholic be held to the same values etc. IT is a problem. But he has to be willing to be held to make the marriage work for the Catholic. The Pope is seeing this now. We need to educate the Non-Catholic and he has to be willing to live up to certain marriage standards. Rather he is of the faith or not, If he is not the marriage should not go on. I could be wrong but that is where I see the Pope going with this.

But what I am saying is the Pope has many NEW problems that he did not have say 80 years ago. He has to figure out a way to fix problems and still stay in with the complete teachings of the CC.

Bottom line you cannot fix a problem, until the problem exists. ANd this problem never existed back when. And unfortunately when problems begin it takes awhile for them to come to light. And that is why now we have to have more education in our Church for marriage now.

When did you ever see groups back 100 years ago for marriages in trouble? You didn’t! I mean the Church is changing with the times, and for the best. You will see that when he gets this worked out it will be better. But give us a chance to fix things.

And I think that eventually it will probally be much harder to marry in the Church, maybe not? Who knows? But whatever it takes.

But bottom line is at least the Church is working on it. And not ignoring the problem. But you cannot blame the Church for the divorce rate either. And yes the Pope is concerned. Pope John Paul ll has been working on familys. He told us 20 years ago that we needed to get back to family values. Not material things. He saw it long before we even did. He warned us, that money and giving our kids everything is not going to work. Sometimes having less is more.

But many refused to listen to him. He told us that while we were working working getting money for material things the devil was comming after our kids. And he was right. Drugs took over. And why do many kids to drugs, simple they had too much. But not what they needed. A Mother and Father at home.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think he is concerned not only about the problems with parishoners and people in general with their thin mentality about divorce, I think he is also concerned at the numbers of annulments and the possibility that tribunals in “some” parts of the Catholic world are being too generous. It’s a definite possibility here. I do understand what you’re saying but I’d hope you’d at least acknowledge that the Catholic Church isn’t perfect. You can argue it’s perfect in doctrine/dogma and moral teachings, but when it comes to a grass roots level, we’re dealing with priests and bishops who are human beings. Just as the sex abuse scandal was mishandled to an appauling, disgusting level all over the world, the possibility that “some” tribunals are being too generous or careless it there. And what you’re saying is true as well.

When you say, “you cannot blame the Church for the divorce rate” I assume that’s just a rhetorical statement, not directed toward me. I certainly wouldn’t ever blame the CC for the divorce rate. I blame our society, the media, the mentality the world has adopted, and the evil one who is at work here, not the Church.

I agree with much you have to say here, rinnie. You’re right about new problems, new age we live in, the Church is doing a good job to try and adapt to be more pastoral and yet stand up for traditional morality, etc. No disagreements with what you’re saying.
Blessings…

But gurney rather the Pope is concerned about the annulments or not has nothing to do with an annulment in itself.

Sure the Pope is concerned. But what he is concerned about is our society as a whole. I hope you are understanding what I am saying. It is not the annulment or the annulment process its what is the problem here with us.

What the Pope is saying is wait a minute, We need to bring in better education to show these People what a marriage IS in the CC. What it means, what it truly consists of.

I mean did your parents go to 6 months of classes when they got married? Did you? My brother is ten years older than I, I do not remember him going to marriage classes he is 57 I have to ask him if he did or not.

Back WHEN usually Catholic’s married Catholic’s or the other turned Catholic to be married in the CHurch. Now its mixed marriages. You do not have to marry a Catholic to be married in the Church.

Do you see what I am saying, how can a non-Catholic be held to the same values etc. IT is a problem. But he has to be willing to be held to make the marriage work for the Catholic. The Pope is seeing this now. We need to educate the Non-Catholic and he has to be willing to live up to certain marriage standards. Rather he is of the faith or not, If he is not the marriage should not go on. I could be wrong but that is where I see the Pope going with this.

But what I am saying is the Pope has many NEW problems that he did not have say 80 years ago. He has to figure out a way to fix problems and still stay in with the complete teachings of the CC.

Bottom line you cannot fix a problem, until the problem exists. ANd this problem never existed back when. And unfortunately when problems begin it takes awhile for them to come to light. And that is why now we have to have more education in our Church for marriage now.

When did you ever see groups back 100 years ago for marriages in trouble? You didn’t! I mean the Church is changing with the times, and for the best. You will see that when he gets this worked out it will be better. But give us a chance to fix things.

And I think that eventually it will probally be much harder to marry in the Church, maybe not? Who knows? But whatever it takes.

But bottom line is at least the Church is working on it. And not ignoring the problem. But you cannot blame the Church for the divorce rate either. And yes the Pope is concerned. Pope John Paul ll has been working on familys. He told us 20 years ago that we needed to get back to family values. Not material things. He saw it long before we even did. He warned us, that money and giving our kids everything is not going to work. Sometimes having less is more.

But many refused to listen to him. He told us that while we were working working getting money for material things the devil was comming after our kids. And he was right. Drugs took over. And why do many kids to drugs, simple they had too much. But not what they needed. A Mother and Father at home.

 

[rinnie]

I think he is concerned not only about the problems with parishoners and people in general with their thin mentality about divorce, I think he is also concerned at the numbers of annulments and the possibility that tribunals in “some” parts of the Catholic world are being too generous. It’s a definite possibility here. I do understand what you’re saying but I’d hope you’d at least acknowledge that the Catholic Church isn’t perfect. You can argue it’s perfect in doctrine/dogma and moral teachings, but when it comes to a grass roots level, we’re dealing with priests and bishops who are human beings. Just as the sex abuse scandal was mishandled to an appauling, disgusting level all over the world, the possibility that “some” tribunals are being too generous or careless it there. And what you’re saying is true as well.

When you say, “you cannot blame the Church for the divorce rate” I assume that’s just a rhetorical statement, not directed toward me. I certainly wouldn’t ever blame the CC for the divorce rate. I blame our society, the media, the mentality the world has adopted, and the evil one who is at work here, not the Church.

I agree with much you have to say here, rinnie. You’re right about new problems, new age we live in, the Church is doing a good job to try and adapt to be more pastoral and yet stand up for traditional morality, etc. No disagreements with what you’re saying.
Blessings…

Can’t do it buddy! I believe that the CC is the Living Christ. Now if you want me to admit that humans like Popes, Bishops, Priests are human and can make mistakes I will give you that. Never denied it.

But I believe the CC is Perfect, it is led by the Holy Spriit and when the Popes and Bishops speak with the Power of the Holy Spirit they are perfect words.

When they make decisions on their own they can screw up. Just like St Peter. Did anyone ever say he was perfect? How about St Paul? St Paul said he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling. But the RCC can not be held for decisions based on a Human level.

ANd Gurn, No, calm down, I never said you are blaming the Church You take too much of what I say to heart and personal.

And you can blame the Pope for his mistakes, he accepts that. And he has stated himself he understands. But who is to say what they would do. And who really knows the whole truth. The Pope at that time did what he throught was the best at that time, I truly believe that, but look at what he changed to fix it also. I mean sure we could go half empty half full all day. The bottom line is we have Priests who are human who fell from grace. And they brought down great shame on JESUS CHRIST. And trust me they will pay.

I will never judge them, for I cannot. But I can never forget the words of Jesus Mark 9: 42-48. I think that says it all. I would never want to face Jesus with that sin, I can’t even begin to understand a sin so grave. And I beg God to never let me be sick enough to even think of such a sick thing.

But the bottom line is they have done great harm to Jesus. I guess I am like the Pope. May God have mercy on them because I can’t!!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Can’t do what? Also, if you noticed, I pointed out the fact that I assumed you were speaking rhetorically. Trust me, I am not taking what you’re saying to heart and making it personal. I’d be upset, which I’m not. So no need to recommend calm.

Can’t do it buddy! I believe that the CC is the Living Christ. Now if you want me to admit that humans like Popes, Bishops, Priests are human and can make mistakes I will give you that. Never denied it.

But I believe the CC is Perfect, it is led by the Holy Spriit and when the Popes and Bishops speak with the Power of the Holy Spirit they are perfect words.

When they make decisions on their own they can screw up. Just like St Peter. Did anyone ever say he was perfect? How about St Paul? St Paul said he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling. But the RCC can not be held for decisions based on a Human level.

ANd Gurn, No, calm down, I never said you are blaming the Church You take too much of what I say to heart and personal.

And you can blame the Pope for his mistakes, he accepts that. And he has stated himself he understands. But who is to say what they would do. And who really knows the whole truth. The Pope at that time did what he throught was the best at that time, I truly believe that, but look at what he changed to fix it also. I mean sure we could go half empty half full all day. The bottom line is we have Priests who are human who fell from grace. And they brought down great shame on JESUS CHRIST. And trust me they will pay.

I will never judge them, for I cannot. But I can never forget the words of Jesus Mark 9: 42-48. I think that says it all. I would never want to face Jesus with that sin, I can’t even begin to understand a sin so grave. And I beg God to never let me be sick enough to even think of such a sick thing.

But the bottom line is they have done great harm to Jesus. I guess I am like the Pope. May God have mercy on them because I can’t!!

 

[rinnie]

Can’t do what? Also, if you noticed, I pointed out the fact that I assumed you were speaking rhetorically. Trust me, I am not taking what you’re saying to heart and making it personal. I’d be upset, which I’m not. So no need to recommend calm.

Oh Sorry! When I said can’t do it, that is admit the CC isn’t perfect!!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I never said that you should say that. I went out of my way to say that you can believe that the doctrines, dogma, theology, and moral teachings are perfect. But the individual priests, bishops, and members of these tribunals are humans subject to error and human frailty. That’s what I said. You need to go re-read my post. I merely want to point out that these tribunals are not a perfect science. The rationale and rules of engagement for them might be but the delivery might not be.

Oh Sorry! When I said can’t do it, that is admit the CC isn’t perfect!!

 

[rinnie]

I never said that you should say that. I went out of my way to say that you can believe that the doctrines, dogma, theology, and moral teachings are perfect. But the individual priests, bishops, and members of these tribunals are humans subject to error and human frailty. That’s what I said. You need to go re-read my post. I merely want to point out that these tribunals are not a perfect science. The rationale and rules of engagement for them might be but the delivery might not be.

I agree. But I do not feel that the Priest, Bishops, etc are the CC. I believe that Jesus Is the CC. That was my point. Jesus left us the Holy Spirit the Advocate. That is the CC. The Priest, Bishops are the visible leaders of Christ here in this world, but they are not him. Jesus is the CHurch and the Church is Jesus. LIke Jesus tells us The Church is the Pilar of all truth. Who is the Pilar of all truth? Jesus. Same thing. The priest and Bishops are not the CC. Saul Saul why are you persecuting me? Who was Saul persecuting Jesus or the CC? There you go the Church. Who are you Saul asked, Its Me Jesus the one you are persecuting!!