Divorce and the Greek-Orthodox

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It may be less (or more?) confusing to refer to the Russian *Greek-*Catholic Church.
 
Nine_Two said:
The Russian policies toward the Jesuits were actually a very overt anti-Vatican (I would distinguish this from being anti-Catholic, since they accepted Catholics under the policy at times) policy.

The Jesuits were allowed in when Rome had them expelled from Catholic countries, and were banned when the Jesuits were allowed back in to Catholic countries.
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No, it was anti-Catholic because it was Russian Catholics who bore the brunt of discriminatory legislation in Russia.
 
josie_L said:
No, it was anti-Catholic because it was Russian Catholics who bore the brunt of discriminatory legislation in Russia.
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It was Russian Catholics who bore the fruits of the canon when it was non-discriminatory.

The policies toward the Jesuits were always directed against Rome, not against the local Catholics.

Most of the discrimination was anti-Roman rather than anti-Catholic. Dostoyevsky’s “Grand Inquisitor” for example attacked the Hierarchy while leaving the followers out of it.
 
josie_L said:
Are you saying the moral conditions in Russia are better? :eek:
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They are still recovering from being under athiest Communism, but at the very least they are taking a strong stand against homosexual unions, and the rate of abortions has dropped significantly (still have a way to go before before they reach the barely less miserable standard of the traditionally democratic countries) 😦

BTW, big fan of Genesis and Peter Gabriel myself 👍
 
Nine_Two said:
It was Russian Catholics who bore the fruits of the canon when it was non-discriminatory.

The policies toward the Jesuits were always directed against Rome, not against the local Catholics.

Most of the discrimination was anti-Roman rather than anti-Catholic. Dostoyevsky’s “Grand Inquisitor” for example attacked the Hierarchy while leaving the followers out of it.
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It was directed against Rome and Catholics, i.e., it’s not an either/or situation, Catholics in Russia suffered, as well as Orthodox who converted to Catholicism. Even in recent times, there has been discrimination against Catholics:
Relations with the Russian Orthodox church have been rocky for nearly a millennium, and attempts at re-establishing Catholicism have met with opposition. Pope John Paul II for years expressed a desire to visit Russia, but the Russian Orthodox Church has for years resisted.[27] In April 2002, Bishop Jerry Mazur of Eastern Siberia was stripped of his visa, forcing the appointment of a new bishop for that diocese.[28] In 2002, five foreign Catholic priests were denied visas to return to Russia, construction of a new cathedral was blocked in Pskov, and a church in southern Russia was shot at.[29] On Christmas Day 2005, Russian Orthodox activists planned to picket outside of Moscow’s Catholic Cathedral, but the picket was cancelled.[30] Despite the recent thawing of relations with the election of Pope Benedict XVI, there are still issues such as the readiness of the police to protect Catholics and other minorities from persecution.[31] A 2004 Ecumenical conference was organized for Russia’s “traditional religions” Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism, and therefore excluded Catholicism.[33]
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Russia
 
prodromos said:
They are still recovering from being under athiest Communism, but at the very least they are taking a strong stand against homosexual unions, and the rate of abortions has dropped significantly (still have a way to go before before they reach the barely less miserable standard of the traditionally democratic countries) 😦

BTW, big fan of Genesis and Peter Gabriel myself 👍
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And did not your own government under the guidance of a Catholic prime minister (and somewhat Catholic cabinet) help to overturn gay marriage recently. Moreover, the stance against homosexual unions in Russia may be a good thing, but things are getting quite violent , i.e., they are beating up homosexuals. This is something which Christ would not countenance. Moreover, North America (and most of the West) is still suffering the effects of the 60’s (counter/sexual revolution) despite the admonitions and warnings issued by Pope Paul VI’s in his encyclical “Humane Vitae”. In other words, we need time to recover, i.e., things will change for the better!!

p.s. They’re friggin awesome. 👍
 
RyanBlack said:
No, the Russian Catholic Church is an Eastern Catholic Church of the Byzantine Rite. There are certainly Latin Catholics in Russia, but they are not members of the Russian Catholic Church, just as Latin Rite Catholics in Ukraine are not members of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, which is an Eastern Catholic Church of the Byzantine Rite.
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Ryan, would you do me the favour of reading this article, I think you’ll like it, it’s entitled, “Nec Plus, Nec Minus, Nec Aliter: A Brief History of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church and the Russian Catholics”: rumkatkilise.org/necplus.htm

I’m not sure if you know what “Nec Plus, Nec Minus, Nec Aliter” means but its latin for “no more, no less, no different”, these were words spoken by Pope St. Pius X.
 
josie_L said:
It was directed against Rome and Catholics, i.e., it’s not an either/or situation, Catholics in Russia suffered, as well as Orthodox who converted to Catholicism. Even in recent times, there has been discrimination against Catholics:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Russia
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One needs to understand what is happening there right now. It’s an Orthodox country where they are having an influx of foreign missionaries coming in to lead the people away from the Orthodox Church, instead of helping to re-establish the (Orthodox) Church. Baptists, Pentacostals, Presbyterian, etc. The RCC is not wanting to come in and help the EOC…they are wanting to get their foothold also. It’s a touchy situation in post-Communism.
 
Exactly. Being suspicious (with good cause in recent years) is the issue. I know Catholic countries have dealt with the same.
 
Wow, this has been a fascinating read.

One can give many reasons why authoritarian and totalitarian states act the way they do.
But I am hopeful that everyone here is against religious discrimination and certainly persecution.

Can we all agree that religious discrimination against Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics in contemporary Russia is wrong?
Against Prostestants?

This thread over at byzcath has ALSO been illuminating:
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/402495/1
 
MommaduckofMany said:
One needs to understand what is happening there right now. It’s an Orthodox country where they are having an influx of foreign missionaries coming in to lead the people away from the Orthodox Church, instead of helping to re-establish the (Orthodox) Church. Baptists, Pentacostals, Presbyterian, etc. The RCC is not wanting to come in and help the EOC…they are wanting to get their foothold also. It’s a touchy situation in post-Communism.
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Forgive me, but aren’t there Orthodox missionaries or churches set in countries which have a Catholic majority, i.e., are they not allowed to practice their faith freely? Moreover, we’re talking about disallowing Catholics who are Russian to have the freedom to practice their faith and follow their conscience (these are essential rights in any self-respecting democracy), i.e., they are not even considered an official religion (but Islam is). This is discrimination plain and simple.

p.s. In majority Catholic countries like Brazil where the population was once 98% Catholic, is now, at 74% I think, but that’s because Brazil is a democracy which allows for freedom of religion and conscience. So no, I’m not convinced per se by this argument nor do I think its justified.
 
I think Russia is an autocratic state to some degree, i.e., when basic human rights are being violated repeatedly like freedom of the press, speech, religion . . . etc., we are no longer dealing with a democracy.
 
dvdjs said:
Wow, this has been a fascinating read.

One can give many reasons why authoritarian and totalitarian states act the way they do.
But I am hopeful that everyone here is against religious discrimination and certainly persecution.

Can we all agree that religious discrimination against Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics in contemporary Russia is wrong?
Against Prostestants?

This thread over at byzcath has ALSO been illuminating:
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/402495/1
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I can.
 
josie_L said:
Forgive me, but aren’t there Orthodox missionaries or churches set in countries which have a Catholic majority, i.e., are they not allowed to practice their faith freely?
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I believe there are Orthodox Churches which serve the needs of immigrants from Orthodox countries. They are not missionaries nor do they have a policy of proselytism. The Catholic Church has the same in Greece primarily serving the needs of Philipinos working in Greece.
 
Cuba is a Catholic country where Orthodox are in minority and, until recently, were pretty suppressed. Spain is tight about missionaries…also a Catholic country. As stated above. Orthodox don’t go out of their way for converts. Baptists have come into Russia, wearing cassocks, using icons, etc, to mislead and confuse Russians. As for Catholics, if you understand that the Catholic Church has taken Orthodox property in traditionally Orthodox countries, this is also why there would be suspician. Russia is an Orthodox country and they want to stay an Orthodox country, just as Spain is a Catholic country and wants to remain a Catholic country.
 
MommaduckofMany said:
Cuba is a Catholic country where Orthodox are in minority and, until recently, were pretty suppressed. Spain is tight about missionaries…also a Catholic country. As stated above. Orthodox don’t go out of their way for converts. Baptists have come into Russia, wearing cassocks, using icons, etc, to mislead and confuse Russians. As for Catholics, if you understand that the Catholic Church has taken Orthodox property in traditionally Orthodox countries, this is also why there would be suspician. Russia is an Orthodox country and they want to stay an Orthodox country, just as Spain is a Catholic country and wants to remain a Catholic country.
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The Catholic Church in Cuba was also suppressed by the Cuban government, which by the way is not a Catholic country, i.e., it is still regarded as communist, moreover, Spain allows for the Orthodox to freely practice their faith, i.e., if the Orthodox in Spain were experiencing what Russian Catholics are experiencing than this too would be discrimination, but they are not. So, missionaries notwithstanding, my argument is about freedom of religion. If Russia wishes to remain Orthodox than it should not go about protecting Orthodoxy by suppressing the freedoms of its citizens who are not Orthodox. And I also think it’s fair to add that the Orthodox have also taken away Catholic property in traditionally Orthodox and Catholic countries, i.e., the Russians are either experiencing amnesia in this regard or they are being hypocritical, take your pick.

p.s. Are you aware of the Ukrainian protests and why they are happening?
 
josie_L said:
The Catholic Church in Cuba was also suppressed by the Cuban government, which by the way is not a Catholic country, i.e., it is still regarded as communist, moreover, Spain allows for the Orthodox to freely practice their faith, i.e., if the Orthodox in Spain were experiencing what Russian Catholics are experiencing than this too would be discrimination, but they are not. So, missionaries notwithstanding, my argument is about freedom of religion. If Russia wishes to remain Orthodox than it should not go about protecting Orthodoxy by suppressing the freedoms of its citizens who are not Orthodox. And I also think it’s fair to add that the Orthodox have also taken away Catholic property in traditionally Orthodox and Catholic countries, i.e., the Russians are either experiencing amnesia in this regard or they are being hypocritical, take your pick.

p.s. Are you aware of the Ukrainian protests and why they are happening?
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What supposed restrictions are Catholics facing in Russia? I have Protestant friends there are worshipping freely.
 
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