Divorce by Text Message

[Sister_Amy]

Because he decided it would be easier to kill her than wait the 3 mos for the divorce I assume…

Well it’s not like he’d have to wait for anything. Since he could get married again without waiting for the divorce to finalize. So that doesn’t make sense.

And if he had to send his sons to another country to find her… seems expensive. Maybe he wanted the dowry he gave her?

Either way. Spending an eternity burning in hell somehow doesn’t make it seem worth it to me. Something is missing from that puzzle… or else her ex-husband was a psychopath.

That certainly has NOTHING to do with Islam. Very fishy. Hm.

 

[inJESUS]

So don’t say that marriage is “unserious.”

if Muhammad says you can divorce your husband because you don’t find him handsome, (and you as women rights), pray tell where is the seriousness of marriage bond here? why not divorce him because his hair fell as well and you don’t like bold men?

Where did you come up with this? Muhammad did not marry Aisha because Sauda was “fat and ugly!” And seriously, how dare you say that? Ugh!!!

 

[Sister_Amy]

if Muhammad says you can divorce your husband because you don’t find him handsome, (and you as women rights), pray tell where is the seriousness of marriage bond here? why not divorce him because his hair fell as well and you don’t like bold men?

 

[inJESUS]

serious. Just because a woman could do that doesn’t mean she should. Seriously. subhanallah…she has this “divine” right or not? a divine right that says a marriage can be broken because you don’t find your husband attractive anyore is so serious about the meaning of marriage?

Muhammad, saaws, wasn’t going to divorce her anyway.

not according to any sahih hadith or commentary i quoted.

And I’m not disputing anything that you quoted actually. She feared that he would after marrying Aisha

so she gave up her turn. But how long had he been married to Sauda before marrying Aisha? Think about it, just think. Not enough time for her to “become aged.” We don’t have any evidence that Muhammad saaws actually intended to divorce Sauda. After all, he had practically just married her! it is not agreed who was before, Aisha or Sauda but that is off topic since this reason was not given as to why Muhammad wanted to divorce her…the reason given is already quoted so you are actually disputing what i quoted.

So were you calling Sauda fat or were you calling me fat?

you? i don’t know you and even if you were fat, i wouldn’t point it!

I don’t know who Al-Zamakhshari is/was.

Mufassir like Ibn Kathir.

You’re calling Sauda again a fat old lady? HOW DARE YOU!?

subhannalah! it was Aisha who called her fat lady, not me…will you ask Aisha how dared she? beware AS THE DIVINE INSPIRATIONS DO NOT COME TO ME ON ANY OF THE BEDS EXCEPT THAT OF AISHA.

Wanted? You don’t know that he saaws wanted. And in just a couple years how did she have time to GET old and BECOME unattractive? How many wives did Muhammad saaws have when Sauda gave up her night? Just think about it, your logic makes no sense. And that bizarre quote by the person I don’t know who he is, totally off the mark.

eh? all of these quotes are bizarre yet you said you are not disputing them with me?

Yuck? At what? I’m grossly offended by your calling my mother

fat, old, and ugly. It’s incredibly rude and is making me pretty angry actually. your mother? who? Sauda? she was called fat by your mother Aisha, not me…

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t even understand the question.

You posted that a woman must consent to marriage in Islam. I wanted to know at what age could a woman make that consent. How old must a woman be to enter a contract? How old must she be in order to get married?

 

[Sister_Amy]

subhanallah…she has this “divine” right or not? a divine right that says a marriage can be broken because you don’t find your husband attractive anyore is so serious about the meaning of marriage?

We are clearly not on the same level today inJESUS.

Let me give some background in case anyone else is reading and is utterly confused.

(1) Muhammad saaws married Khadeejah and was monogamous until her death.

(2) After the death of Khadeejah, a friend of Muhammad’s suggested he remarry, and take both Sauda and 'Aisha as wives. Sauda to help with the children and household, and 'Aisha to make him happy again.

(3) Muhammad (saaws) married Sauda, and sort of “engaged” Aisha at the same time. The marriage to Sauda was complete but the marriage to Aisha wasn’t consummated until a couple years later. Maybe 3.

(4) That’s not enough time for her to “get old” to “get fat” or “get unattractive.” She was fond of Aisha, and she chose to relinquish her night. Even if she did so fearing that Muhammad (saaws) might divorce her, there is no hadith or anything of the sort which actually reports Muhammad (saaws) intending to divorce her. That’s why I said you didn’t have evidence of that.

(5) The Prophet (saaws) only lived for 10-11 years after his marriage to Sauda. Still not time for her to get considerably older. She was someone with a happy disposition, and known to be very tall.

(6) You are doing more than just quoting Aisha and do not pretend otherwise.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You posted that a woman must consent to marriage in Islam. I wanted to know at what age could a woman make that consent. How old must a woman be to enter a contract? How old must she be in order to get married?

I have no idea.

 

[MugenOne]

I guess there is no age of consent in Islamic countries. Ain’t that girl and old man look like someone in the quran? Absolutely sick, but it is absolutely quranological though!

Saudi man ‘wins’ 10-yr-old in deal with her dad

Dare turns serious as 60-yr-old plans to marry girl

alarabiya.net/articles/2008/07/20/53414.html

A 60-year old Saudi man who was set to marry a 10-year old girl—he ‘won’ in a bet with her father—has postponed his marriage after protests from human rights groups, press reports revealed.

The fate of the little girl was decided after her father dared the elderly man to marry a second wife and teased him about being afraid of his current wife. The elderly man accepted the challenge and asked for his daughter’s hand in marriage, Saudi newspaper Al-Madina reported.

The father couldn’t retract the challenge and accepted the proposal, asking for a 100,000 riyal dowry, the paper said, adding the two men finalized the marriage procedures and the couple even underwent pre-marital tests, which shocked staff at the lab.

The Saudi National Human Rights Association sent a letter to the Emir of the northwestern city Hail, where the girl lives, and to court to stop the union.

The Association stated that the union is in violation of the international treaty for the protection of children from early marriages, of which Saudi Arabia is a signatory.

The residents of Hail shared the same sentiments and were actually the ones who demanded that the Association intercede to stop the marriage.

Last March, the Association stopped the marriage of a 12-year old boy and his 11-year old cousin in the southwestern province of Jizan.

Saudi sociologist Abdullah Al-Harbi said that in these kinds of marriages the father technically sells his daughter, since the groom-to-be usually pays huge amounts of money to marry a younger girl to “satisfy his sexual desires.”

“These marriages usually end up in failure, and the girl usually goes through trauma due to living with a man who is much older,” he said.

 

[MugenOne]

Here is the pix, sorry folks! To be fair, this picture is not related to the article above. It is just an illustration of the event. That’s how Mohammad and Aisha would look like if they were still around today.

 

[ralphinal]

I have no idea.

I am a little shocked. Islam is more than a religion, it is also a social code and code of Law. It speaks to so many issues and yet it ignores this.

Does Islam teach when a boy is able to enter into contracts or marry?

 

[inJESUS]

clearly as i did not understand your attacks

(4) That’s not enough time for her to “get old” to “get fat” or “get unattractive.”

do you know her age when he married her? because it was Ibn Kathir who said she was getting old.

Even if she did so fearing that Muhammad (saaws) might divorce her, there is no hadith or anything of the sort which actually reports Muhammad (saaws) intending to divorce her. That’s why I said you didn’t have evidence of that.

Ibn Kathir and al-Tabari wrote that the above mentioned aya was revealed because Muhammad wanted to divorce Sauda. Bukhari agrees when he presents Sauda as the only wife without marital right of intimacy, which she gave day and night for Aisha…of course fairness does not include such a behavior…a healthy, young Sauda will not deprive herself of sexual intimacy to please Aisha but to please Muhammad as the hadith says which agrees with both Al-Tabari and Ibn Kathir…these are scholars Amy, not amateurs.

(6) You are doing more than just quoting Aisha and do not pretend otherwise.

pretend? what should i pretend? it was Aisha who called Sauda a fat huge lady…i brought nothing from thin air.

The whole point is that a woman cannot be dumped by her husband just because he doesn’t like her look anymore…this is not called practicality but harshness of heart .

 

[inJESUS]

I am a little shocked. Islam is more than a religion, it is also a social code and code of Law. It speaks to so many issues and yet it ignores this.

Does Islam teach when a boy is able to enter into contracts or marry?

this is more of a cultural agreement…there is no fixed age of consent and the fathers decide if the girl is younger than the age of consent in the specific country…i guess the age must be above 9 years old since Aisha did not give her opinion when she was betrothed at 6 and consumated at nine.

 

[inJESUS]

(4) That’s not enough time for her to “get old” to “get fat” or “get unattractive.” She was fond of Aisha, and she chose to relinquish her night. Even if she did so fearing that Muhammad (saaws) might divorce her, there is no hadith or anything of the sort which actually reports Muhammad (saaws) intending to divorce her. That’s why I said you didn’t have evidence of that.

 

[TheOldOne]

I think the important thing here is to separate what Islam says about marriage,in other words its bizarre hadith-based laws (old men marrying young women,women divorcing because of ugly husbands, divorce thru text messaging etc) and the actual practice in the Islamic world.
In practice Islamic family life is far more rigid and totalitarian than any westerner can likely imagine. Divorce is almost unheard of. Actually we Catholics could learn some things from them in this regard!
Sister Amy asserts that women can petition for divorce for even trivial reasons. In reality women can never divorce their husbands. No Sharia court of fat,turbaned, bearded ulema is going to allow a Mulim woman to divorce her husband. there maybe some exceptions in more “liberal” places like Malaysia but these would be exceedingly rare.
In addition, western fantasies to the contrary, polygamy is quite rare in the Muslim world, and in some cultures is seen as “seedy”.
BTW did you know that if a man gives his wife a triple divorce in the heat of an argument they are supposed to immediately and irrevocably separate. Regardless of whether or not he really meant it? Ihave often wondered how many Muslim couples are “living in sin”.

 

[inJESUS]

Sister Amy asserts that women can petition for divorce for even trivial reasons. In reality women can never divorce their husbands. No Sharia court of fat,turbaned, bearded ulema is going to allow a Mulim woman to divorce her husband. there maybe some exceptions in more “liberal” places like Malaysia but these would be exceedingly rare.

i agree.

BTW did you know that if a man gives his wife a triple divorce in the heat of an argument they are supposed to immediately and irrevocably separate. Regardless of whether or not he really meant it? Ihave often wondered how many Muslim couples are “living in sin”.

if he utters it thrice she becomes “haram” for him and therefore must not live together…if they decide to get married again they cannot unless the woman marries another man and gets a divorce.

 

[ralphinal]

this is more of a cultural agreement…there is no fixed age of consent and the fathers decide if the girl is younger than the age of consent in the specific country…i guess the age must be above 9 years old since Aisha did not give her opinion when she was betrothed at 6 and consumated at nine.

So the father decides if his daughter is ready. Am I not mistaken in that a child cannot ever dispute an order from her father?

 

[Sister_Amy]

The whole point is that a woman cannot be dumped by her husband just because he doesn’t like her look anymore…this is not called practicality but harshness of heart .

Harshness of the heart if someone chooses to do that.

Not because they are allowed to.

Muhammad (saaws) only divorced one of his wives. Do you know which?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think the important thing here is to separate what Islam says about marriage,in other words its bizarre hadith-based laws (old men marrying young women,women divorcing because of ugly husbands, divorce thru text messaging etc) and the actual practice in the Islamic world.

Actually the advice in Islam is for a man to marry someone near his age, and for a father not to marry his daughter to someone much older. For women like in men what men like in women.

Secondly, the example I gave is of an extreme case clearly, not the norm. I don’t think the woman did divorce her husband actually. I just brought it up to make a point that she could have.

In practice Islamic family life is far more rigid and totalitarian than any westerner can likely imagine.

Have you witnessed it? Or from what experience do you actually speak?

Divorce is almost unheard of. Actually we Catholics could learn some things from them in this regard!

Among my intimate acquaintance I know several women who have been divorced. One of my very good friends has in fact been divorced twice–both times the divorce was initiated by her (for non-trivial reasons, I might add. First for taking a second wife, and second for cheating.)

Sister Amy asserts that women can petition for divorce for even trivial reasons. In reality women can never divorce their husbands. No Sharia court of fat,turbaned, bearded ulema is going to allow a Mulim woman to divorce her husband. there maybe some exceptions in more “liberal” places like Malaysia but these would be exceedingly rare.

If that were the case there wouldn’t be so many divorced women. I know MANY women who have divorced their husbands.

In addition, western fantasies to the contrary, polygamy is quite rare in the Muslim world, and in some cultures is seen as “seedy”.

Yeah generally it’s not a happy topic and is definitely the exception rather than the norm.

BTW did you know that if a man gives his wife a triple divorce in the heat of an argument they are supposed to immediately and irrevocably separate. Regardless of whether or not he really meant it? Ihave often wondered how many Muslim couples are “living in sin”.

This actually isn’t true. What happened shortly after the death of Muhammad (saaws) the people were doing this so trivially–in the heat of an argument making a “triple divorce.” It is only considered one divorce, but the Ruler at that time decided that these people who were doing it needed to take it seriously, and so he made the divorce irrevocable for them because they weren’t being serious. But most scholars agree that it is only one divorce. And there is still a waiting period–always a waiting period.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So the father decides if his daughter is ready. Am I not mistaken in that a child cannot ever dispute an order from her father?

You are mistaken. A woman cannot be married without her consent–thus said the Messenger of Allah.

Fathers are not supposed to marry their daughters to much older men–if it happens it’s certainly an exception and not the rule.

Moreover, if a woman does not give her consent the marriage can be annulled or she can be divorced if she’s not happy. There is a case of a woman coming to Muhammad to say that she was married without giving her consent, and he offered to divorce her. She actually opted to stay in the marriage, but she was given that choice because she didn’t have a say in getting married (which is wrong.)

 

[Matariel]

Uh, how tragic. I guess that’s what happens when you have an Islamic culture, which looks down on women, and basically makes them property of men.

No wonder so many of the converts from Islam to Christianity are women.