Divorce in the Catholic Church - in light of the Pope

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Personally, I wonder how this got out to the public?

See the conflicting reports and damage control the Vatican had to do. Just reading this thread you can see how one report can affect peoples view of the HH and his actions.

The Catholic news sources print a story which brings readers to a different conclusion. Read the secular news stories on the same event and you come to another conclusion.

As laity we should be more discerning and discreet especially if we have a personal encounter with HH about a personal issue.
 
edwest2 said:
The media version of the story is wrong. Please read the following:

ncregister.com/daily-news/doubts-increase-over-popes-reported-phone-call-on-divorce-remarried-communi/

Peace,
Ed
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That seems to be an attempt to say “don’t draw precedent from this”. I don’t think I’m off in expecting that the Vatican would deny it if the Pope was accused of saying something heretical (say advocating for Arienism) in a phone call. The fact that they aren’t suggests that the media reports (drawn from the woman’s claim) are accurate.

The Vatican statement is saying that this is not to be considered the norm, and does seem to indicate that a priest (or spiritual father) has some wiggle room, which was what I was trying to get at initially. My own Churches own policies on the matter make that wiggle room clear, and we are often disparaged by those who believe there is one law which must be interpreted in the same manner with the same consequences no matter what the situation. I posted this story because it seems to say otherwise.
 
The mainstream media, much like posts on facebook, is simply not to be trusted because it has a habit of twisting not just Pope Francis’ words but those of previous Popes as well, to promote their view of what the Church should be. Rely on the National Catholic Register and other bona fide Catholic news sources (never the National Catholic Reporter).

I think this is an excellent lesson for all of us. The media first hailed Pope Francis as ‘that liberal Pope we’ve always wanted’ and since they have not and will not get that, they distort what was actually said, hoping, I firmly believe, to confuse the faithful.

Peace,
Ed
 
pianistclare said:
Annulment has no impact on the legitimacy of children. This is a misconception.
Annulment means that the two people involved in the marriage entered into it not completely solid in their promises / vows to each other. Something was withheld…something was not “there” in order to make the marriage work.
The subsequent children are always of great value because of their very lives. They are created in the image and likeness of God. Kids are never responsible for the actions of their parents. That is outside of the scope of annulment. They are still your parents, even though they may not have lived up to their promises in some way. The Church, when petitioned, may rule that the marriage was not entered into under the optimal terms.
It’s about the covenant. Not the kids. When someone seeks a divorce…they’ve made up their mind. Sometimes, they desire to try it again, and so they need an annulment so as not to live in sin. Doesn’t mean the children ever sinned or are a sinful product of the marriage. That simply cannot be.
I’m so sorry you were hurt by your parents’ divorce. They must have been lovely people individually…becuase you turned out wonderfully. But together…maybe they were not in the best place at the time of their marriage.
God bless you dear friend.
Clare
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I am sorry, if you haven’t been through it you have no idea what it feels like and an annulment does make it feel that much worse. You can explain it anyway you like, it still feels your lessen than others. It was something that made me question the Church and its teachings.
 
shelby_sun said:
I am sorry, if you haven’t been through it you have no idea what it feels like and an annulment does make it feel that much worse. You can explain it anyway you like, it still feels your lessen than others. It was something that made me question the Church and its teachings.
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The annulment process exists to give back a life of sacramental grace. In other words, to prevent people from living in sin. This can only be a good thing.
Divorce happens. People get divorced. That part is over and done with. The damage to children has already been done. What an annulment does is bring the couple back into grace, prevents them from serious sin (adultery) and causes them to examine their current situation to avoid another dissolved marriage. Often, annulments come with stipulations of marriage therapy.
The times when children are bothered by the annulment process is because someone who does not know exactly what an annulment is or is not, begins sayings things like “oh, the church says you should have never been born…you are illegitimate” and other such nonsense. This is not the position of the Church nor has it ever been. It’s about the couple…not their family. Divorce tears apart. Annulments restore.
It’s about a person’s relationship with God. It’s not about their children. They are, and always be loving parents to their children. The church does not dictate that.
But people who don’t understand the process (and MANY don’t) make hurtful presumptions. And loudly assert them. To the great pain of the children.
Divorce is not illegal in the Church,. One may still receive Sacraments when divorced. Not a problem. It’s the re-marriage without the first marriage properly dealt with that leads to trouble. One cannot commit to another spouse if one is still married sacramentally to another. Unless living as brother and sister, they commit adultery.
Annulments when granted, permit the new couple to have a life pleasing to God.
God bless.
 
shelby_sun said:
If he did in fact say what the article said, it is very “Jesuit like”. They want to bring people closer to God. I for one do not believe that a marriage that lasted 25 years and produced 3 children should ever be annulled like it never existed. What an insult to the children and the time together. There are many reason people divorce, so one should be kept from receiving Christ because they found someone else to spend their life with, especially one who continues to go to Church. Really? I love Pope Francis trying to keep people closer to God instead of blindly following rules from ancient times.
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As someone who has gone through an annulment, I can’t disagree with the way you feel anymore. How can someone live in direct violation of Church and Biblical teaching and just think it’s ok?
 
Sooner87 said:
As someone who has gone through an annulment, I can’t disagree with the way you feel anymore. How can someone live in direct violation of Church and Biblical teaching and just think it’s ok?
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I respect that you follow the Churches teaching on the matter. I would never advice someone to do otherwise, but I do understand how wives or husbands and their children would have a problem with what the Churches teaching are. My mother never remarried because their marriage was a union by God and she would not dismiss it even though it ended badly. She has a right to those feelings as you to yours.

My father went on to remarry outside the Church because too felt as my mother did. He went to Mass everyday and regularly went to Confession, who are any of us to say what God did with him when he died. God is all powerful, loving, forgiving, and much bigger than the Church itself. Known of us know the whole truth to anything, we believe we do not know.

Only the Pope knows what was actually said. Truly it is known of my business.
 
shelby_sun said:
I respect that you follow the Churches teaching on the matter. I would never advice someone to do otherwise, but I do understand how wives or husbands and their children would have a problem with what the Churches teaching are. My mother never remarried because their marriage was a union by God and she would not dismiss it even though it ended badly. She has a right to those feelings as you to yours.

My father went on to remarry outside the Church because too felt as my mother did. He went to Mass everyday and regularly went to Confession, who are any of us to say what God did with him when he died. God is all powerful, loving, forgiving, and much bigger than the Church itself. Known of us know the whole truth to anything, we believe we do not know.

Only the Pope knows what was actually said. Truly it is known of my business.
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I apologize if I came across as brash. I just have to ask, regardless what the Church teaches, how do you reconcile with Matthew 19?
 
Pope Francis spoke today on the indissolubility of marriage, in what could be a response to the phone call issue:

“The holiness and indissolubility of Christian matrimony, often disintegrating under tremendous pressure from the secular world, must be deepened by clear doctrine and supported by the witness of committed married couples. Christian matrimony is a lifelong covenant of love between one man and one woman; it entails real sacrifices in order to turn away from illusory notions of sexual freedom and in order to foster conjugal fidelity.” He pointed to the teaching of Blessed John Paul II on marriage and family as a “promising and indeed indispensable means of communicating the liberating truth about Christian marriage.”

southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2014/04/bombshell-pope-francis-clarifies-his.html

👍👍👍
 
Sooner87 said:
I apologize if I came across as brash. I just have to ask, regardless what the Church teaches, how do you reconcile with Matthew 19?
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No worries, you didn’t. I was not brought up to believe word for word in the Bible, that is what Baptist did. I went through 12 years of Catholic school and have been around or working at a Catholic school for almost 50. Not once have I ever been taught that Catholic believe word for word in the Bible.

The Bible was inspired by God to human men, although holy, still human. There are only a few things the Church considers to have been made under infallible circumstances, this not being one of them. I do not try to change peoples beliefs on this matter, nor do I go around bringing up.

I know I am going against the Church. There are priests that agree with me but they would never go out and teach that. They believe in a God that is bigger than that, who would never punish this woman because she married a man who did not get an annulment. This is a very wide scope of the term adultery and I do not believe it should be seen the same as a man or women lying and cheating on the person they married in a union under God. I am not trying to justify my position. I have even considered leaving the Catholic church as I feel I might be better suited in the Episcopal Church.

By the way I do not receive communion.
 
GEddie said:
The Church needs to be historically consistent. It cannot claim that divorce and remarriage are now ok, without proclaiming that those who died over this very issue in the Englysh Reformation in fact died in vain. I dare say it will never give that ok.
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It should be noted that the English Reformation wasn’t about a divorce, there is much more to the relationship between Rome and the English church and that strained relationship goes back hundreds of years.

King Henry VIII wanted an annulment and not a divorce. The RCC at the time handed out annulments like candy to nobility, however, the politics of Henry of being married to a Spanish women complicated things and made the denial political.

The annulment issue is the straw that broke the camel’s back, but divorce did not create the Anglican Church.

Back to the thread topic, I like the way the Episcopal Church handles the issue. If one wants to remarry in TEC, they must get approval from the bishop.

I think the RCC will reform the annulment process and it will be interesting to see if they turn the annulment issue over to the bishop and let him decide who gets an annulment. It is hard to see that such a bureaucratic process is really the best way to handle the issue.
 
seanman611 said:
It should be noted that the English Reformation wasn’t about a divorce, there is much more to the relationship between Rome and the English church and that strained relationship goes back hundreds of years.

King Henry VIII wanted an annulment and not a divorce. The RCC at the time handed out annulments like candy to nobility, however, the politics of Henry of being married to a Spanish women complicated things and made the denial political.

The annulment issue is the straw that broke the camel’s back, but divorce did not create the Anglican Church.

Back to the thread topic, I like the way the Episcopal Church handles the issue. If one wants to remarry in TEC, they must get approval from the bishop.

I think the RCC will reform the annulment process and it will be interesting to see if they turn the annulment issue over to the bishop and let him decide who gets an annulment. It is hard to see that such a bureaucratic process is really the best way to handle the issue.
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A decree of nullity, yes. And the problem was being married to that particular Spanish woman.

Plus other things, as you noted.

Henry’s causa, which was as strong as those things tended to be at the time, was capable of being handled at the diocesan level; each diocese had a court for handling such things and Henry originally tried to keep the issue before the Archbishop of Canterbury. But Katherine appealed to the Pope and the Rota, where Henry still thought he could maneuver a victory.

Complicated history, as history often is.

GKC
 
GKC said:
A decree of nullity, yes. And the problem was being married to that particular Spanish woman.

Plus other things, as you noted.

Henry’s causa, which was as strong as those things tended to be at the time, was capable of being handled at the diocesan level; each diocese had a court for handling such things and Henry originally tried to keep the issue before the Archbishop of Canterbury. But Katherine appealed to the Pope and the Rota, where Henry still thought he could maneuver a victory.

Complicated history, as history often is.

GKC
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Agreed, I wasn’t sure of Catherine of Aragon’s Spanish title, so I kept it simple lol. 😃
 
DaddyGirl said:
So…do you think “the media” twisted and exaggerated the pope’s words in this news story or no?

.
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I have seen headlines of news stories that have said something along the lines of “Pope Francis says divorced and remarried couples are allowed communion” or “Pope changing the standards on divorce and remarriage”… Which is not at all an accurate representation of what actually happened. So for those, yes. His words were definitely twisted and exaggerated.
 
Matthew_Light said:
My parents marriage was annulled (It lasted 15 years and there were 4 children) so my dad and stepmother could take communion.

I will admit it did not feel good to me. Their marriage although imperfect and flawed, yet it was the only home I knew, and when it ended (I was age 12) it felt like my entire world had been destroyed.

Having that marriage annulled - even though I am not a Catholic - just felt like it was adding to the tragedy of the divorce and further discounting my life.
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Please don’t take this the wrong way but you anger should not be directed to the Church but to your parents.

The point is they were going to get divorced one way or another. And there was something missing in the marriage from the get go, a marriage that should have never taken place in they eyes of what marriage is in the Church.

With that said it has nothing to do with you. The Church acknowledges you and loves you and shares in your tragedy.
 
pianistclare said:
The annulment process exists to give back a life of sacramental grace. In other words, to prevent people from living in sin. This can only be a good thing.
Divorce happens. People get divorced. That part is over and done with. The damage to children has already been done. What an annulment does is bring the couple back into grace, prevents them from serious sin (adultery) and causes them to examine their current situation to avoid another dissolved marriage. Often, annulments come with stipulations of marriage therapy.
The times when children are bothered by the annulment process is because someone who does not know exactly what an annulment is or is not, begins sayings things like “oh, the church says you should have never been born…you are illegitimate” and other such nonsense. This is not the position of the Church nor has it ever been. It’s about the couple…not their family. Divorce tears apart. Annulments restore.
It’s about a person’s relationship with God. It’s not about their children. They are, and always be loving parents to their children. The church does not dictate that.
But people who don’t understand the process (and MANY don’t) make hurtful presumptions. And loudly assert them. To the great pain of the children.
Divorce is not illegal in the Church,. One may still receive Sacraments when divorced. Not a problem. It’s the re-marriage without the first marriage properly dealt with that leads to trouble. One cannot commit to another spouse if one is still married sacramentally to another. Unless living as brother and sister, they commit adultery.
Annulments when granted, permit the new couple to have a life pleasing to God.
God bless.
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A wonderful explanation. Thank you.

Peace,
Ed
 
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