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gardenswithkids
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That’s why we need you here, manualman. You remember to bring up the things others sometimes forget to mention.
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gardenswithkids
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gardenswithkids
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And I’m grateful that you posted on this thread. I was gone on vacation and forgot to check it when I came back until I saw your post.
I’ll pray for your friends. And you. It is really weird and difficult watching couples divorce and go through serious marital difficulties. I’ve felt the affect on my own marriage when some friends went through these things.
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gardenswithkids
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Good metaphor, but the higher the climb, the harder a fall. The final climb isn’t over until it’s over. Realizing we need to grow up and be less selfish may be an important epiphany, but we also need to actually become unselfish, not just realize that we need to be less selfish. Marriage and children (and life in general) has a way of exposing every last iota of our selfishness. There are lots of mountains to climb throughout our lives.
I’ve watched some people re-vert to selfishness once their children grow up. Some treat retirement as a second childhood. Then serious illness hits, and the ugly selfishness gets exposed again for what it is.
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gretahope
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Your beginning portion I heartily say AMEN. Yet to the ending portion I’m confused. IT DOES TAKE TWO. As a person who grew up in an “intact” family (in name only)…I really want to know how it benefits a child/parents to “stick it out” b/c “it’s the right thing to do”…when there is severe dysfunction / pain/ abuse, etc, that all generations are affected to the point that they don’t have any model of having relationships, and where the abuse, dysfunction continues…? My parents deserve the medal for “sticking out the marriage.” Yet how does this honor God? /My father humiliates my mom, screams and belittles her/us (still) and yet we’re supposed to just endure? Why can’t we be free to have some peace somehow? We grew up and left, and yet b/c we don’t have the skills, we’ve repeated some of this stuff…and yet is the Church telling us to “stick it out?”
Wait a minute…won’t we be simply perpetuating the insanity? Someone/Somewhere here needs to speak the truth and get healthy! If they do, and the marriage reconciles, great. But it TAKES TWO to make a marriage, as this poster says in the beginning. If one spouse has no desire to change, then only the other spouse can get healthy and change…and if this spouse can live in the insanity in a healthy way, great…but then he/she is enabling in some ways, the other spouse in his/her sin. What am I not seeing here?
My mom is a living shell of a person, in many ways, by living and enabling, and condoning by putting up w/ my Dad’s selfishness. How has this benefitted society or her family?
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momof8
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- and since I don’t know how to do quotes from multiple posts, I’ll just cut and paste another quote from “ManOnFire”:
ManOnFire, your responses are so good. You are truly reflecting what went wrong with my own marriage. My ex-husband was so influenced by the culture, and he was never even aware that that’s what was happening to him. While his parents gave him the example of a committed marriage, I don’t think he realizes that society at that time supported marriage. His parents were not religious, but without societal support I think a couple today needs very strong religious beliefs to help support their marriage. My ex-husband was also being influenced by co-workers, as others have mentioned. He would see what he thought were “successful” divorces and thought he’d get one for himself. Divorce is truly contagious. He really sees himself as a hero now for being a “great” divorced dad. It makes me cringe even now to think that he could see himself that way, but that is the way the world he lives in sees him and to that extent, I understand what my children and I are dealing with.
He also was very much living that “on the fence” mindset that you describe so well. He wasn’t happy in our marriage, and he went back and forth trying to decide whether he would stay in it or not. Just as you’re saying, he got off the fence and that made him, in a sense, happier, if only because the struggle to choose a side was finally over.
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jmcrae
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Actually, what the Church wants you to do is get to the root of the problem - what is the cause of the screaming, the belittling, the humiliations? What’s going on, there? Can it be fixed? (If not, the Church certainly encourages that the other partner become safe, and this could include getting a divorce, and even a new identity.
I certainly agree with you that truths need to be told, here. Reality needs to be addressed head on. We can’t pretend that these things aren’t happening, or that they are no big deal.
A conversation has to begin, in which someone says, “When you do this, I feel this.” Not that you are “making” me feel this - my feelings are my own responsibility - but it’s difficult to react positively to your behaviour when you are doing this. What need of yours is not being met? How can we work together to meet each other’s needs?
If this kind of conversation doesn’t produce any results, then you need to get counseling, and if that doesn’t work, then you move towards separation and divorce. But it need not result in that. Sometimes, all that’s needed is for the person to see himself as others see him.
I recall a case where someone videotaped an abusive conversation between a husband and wife, and when the husband reviewed the video, he was horrified. He said, “I had no idea I was treating her like that. Thank you for letting me know,” and he took steps to improve his communication style with her. As far as I know, they are much happier, now, and still married.
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gretahope
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Very, very good stuff here. My parents, tho , have been married for 55 yrs now, and I don’t see my mom ever doing any of these things to stop my father from his abuse.
Anything is possible with God, tho. She is just willing to put up with just about any amount of yelling, humiliation, etc…sad thing is, she has essentially checked out at this point, so the abuse is not registering in her conscious mind, maybe…
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Chochy
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Can you please reply explaining what part of my entry confused you? I would like to understand where you are coming from before I respond. Thanks so much. God Bless
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gretahope
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gretahope
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I see now what I said at the beginning doesn’t make a whole lot of sense in light of what you said
Maybe my point was that I agree that sometimes one person seems to do most of the “work” involved in the marriage, and others may see it but not the other spouse!
But then you switched the subject and spoke of how important it is to uphold marriage, which I agree with—but what does that poor woman do at this point in the midst of being completely spent? Continue the insanity to uphold her marriage, even after years and years of therapy that the spouse may go through in body only, not making any changes? I guess I figure that she is actually enabling the sin to continue by not saying STOP, NO MORE. I’ve heard so many men say “Wow, all I needed was for my wife to say no to me…”
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Chochy
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What you said throughout your entire response does make sense. I will elaborate on the example I used. The wife is simply exhausted after years of family tragedy and struggle. She has repeatedly asked for help and not received any significant response. As a result she has become increasingly “cranky” and “demanding”. She is no longer the wife who simply carries most of the load while remaining silent. She is saying stop, no more. But she has ruffled everyone’s feathers and they don’t like it. So instead of helping out physically while they dig into the root of the problem the husband takes a walk and leaves all the trouble behind. That’s what I take issue with. If my friend was experiencing any other type of illness her husband would probably have stepped up to the plate. My point was that too many married people leave without going through the hard work it takes to fix the problem. Fortunately my friends have begun counselling and seem to be moving in a better direction.I see now what I said at the beginning doesn’t make a whole lot of sense in light of what you said
Maybe my point was that I agree that sometimes one person seems to do most of the “work” involved in the marriage, and others may see it but not the other spouse!
But then you switched the subject and spoke of how important it is to uphold marriage, which I agree with—but what does that poor woman do at this point in the midst of being completely spent? Continue the insanity to uphold her marriage, even after years and years of therapy that the spouse may go through in body only, not making any changes? I guess I figure that she is actually enabling the sin to continue by not saying STOP, NO MORE. I’ve heard so many men say “Wow, all I needed was for my wife to say no to me…”
We also have to be careful not to judge. There is usually a reason that a person cannot simply say “Stop. No more.” Thats’ when support from others is necessary.
I believe God wants us to fight for marriage. If we believe in marriage and disagree with divorce we are more likely to step in as adult children, family members and friends to support the couple as they learn what changes are necessary. Blessing.
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ManOnFire
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I wish the Church would just spell it out as one of the goals. SOmething like “If you give and give and give for your family and friends, you will truly aprreciate the life’s little pleasures and the fleeting moments of peace and grace.” If we could see it in writing every once in a while…
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ManOnFire
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As we had more kids, I could feel my old selfishness and freedom slipping away naturally. I stubbornly and reluctantly went with it because it was the right thing to do. The mountain metaphor is saying “go over the hill,” rather than backing up. Over the hill = had the grow up epiphany, where it gets easier to “know” the right way to live. Carrying through with it is difficult, but at least I was off temptations fence intellectually.
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ManOnFire
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When my wife and I were in our late 20s and 30s and had less kids, we were still trying to be in that pop culture party mode on the weekends. It seemed like many of our friends were partying hard on the weekend, staying out late, missing Church on Sundays, being hung over, etc. Then, conversations turned to more exotic forms of entertainment and wife swapping in the neighboring plan. Well, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that there’s no long term future in that for the marriage or the kids. It was then that it felt like I was always jumping the fence between maturity and immaturity, right and wrong, good and evil. Having 5 kids pushed me to give more than I thought I was capable of giving. I surprised myself. I volunteered to coach a team, even though I never played the sport and thought I had no time, only to find that the more I pushed myself, the more I achieved. IT forced me to think faster and prioritize. “Knowing” or expectations for my own selfishness actually became easier when I saw my job here as mostly working at work, marriage, family, fixing things, etc, i.e. taking up my cross and following the Way. Making the Committment, though it felt anti-intuitive to be unselfish and at times it felt like I was “losing,” it was, ultimately, very liberating. Instead of being Freud’s selfish id, I learned to become the diametric opposite. When life became mostly sacrifice for others, I learned to look for Love in others (not sexually), because Love is the point. Serving others and looking for Jesus in others is Powerful. I learned to see the little bits of selfish time as the exception, rather than the rule. I learned that when I committed to playing with my kids rather than seeking exotic selfish fun, I got the chance to act like a child again when playing with them. It was creative, fun, and healthy. By handing over my life, I found something deeper and more beautiful than I ever expected to find. For a while, it felt like I was losing, until I realized that I was now winning, all because we made a Committment to follow the Way. My parents look at us incredulously. They can’t figure out where we find the strength. I pray for it. He who humbles himself is exalted, and he who exalts himself is humbled. It feels so good to be doing the right thing, the holy thing. It’s not easy, but it is filled with so much peace and holiness and depth and love and romanticism and grace. The amazing thing is that it is available to ALL people who are willing to give up selfishness, ignore the toxic pop culture who fails to “get it,” and Commit to the right side of the fence.
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