Divorce/separation teaching

  • Thread starter Thread starter sfleet
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

sfleet

Guest
Ok, so there seems to be a lot of gray area in the church’s teaching on what can justify a divorce/separation.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

So what constitutes grave mental danger or “otherwise renders common life too difficult”?

I’m really struggling in my marriage and quite sad that I’m even looking into this. But I’ve currently got so many doubts about my marriage right now. I know what the churches teaching on marriage is, literally till death do you part. Unless a decree of nullity is granted. I get all of that.
 
So what constitutes grave mental danger or “otherwise renders common life too difficult”?
We can’t tell you that. There is no list. It could be addiction, violence, mental illness, personality disorder, etc.

Make an appointment to talk to your pastor.
 
I’ve been speaking with my pastor endlessly as well as other pastors…just as any decision we are faced with in life they can’t give us the answer to the test. They can guide us, but I’ve had seemingly great priests give me “bad” (read non-Catholic advice) on issues of NFP. I appreciate your response though. I guess I need to spend more time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and more time in prayer.
 
I’ve been speaking with my pastor endlessly as well as other pastors…just as any decision we are faced with in life they can’t give us the answer to the test. They can guide us, but I’ve had seemingly great priests give me “bad” (read non-Catholic advice) on issues of NFP. I appreciate your response though. I guess I need to spend more time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and more time in prayer.
I have a couple questions for you to think about, not necessarily answer:

Is it bad enough that you would be willing to spend the rest of your life alone to get away from it?

And have there been better times, and how recent were they?

To what degree will the problems continue after divorce?
 
have you tried a marriage counselor or the like? Priests are priests, a good counselor is another tool in your arsenal. Although, this has probably already occurred to you. We will be praying for you.
 
This evening I tossed out some statistics I had been keeping, concerning the effects of divorce upon children; I would hope that you do not have children at home. The effect on children of a divorce is long lasting and deeply troubling.

Many dioceses will have something akin to Catholic Family Counseling (or similar names) and is an excellent source of sorting out what is going on (or not going on), and can help to clear your thoughts, as well as provide means of trying to rectify the marriage, and if that is not possible, to walk you through the process of determining that it is not salvageable.

If your spouse is willing, you both can attend counseling; if they are not, that is not a reason to not attend yourself.

There is also Retrouvaille, which is designed for couples who may be approaching the brink. Again, your spouse must be willing to participate.

And all of this is separate from and distinct from any issues concerning a later decree of nullity. That requires an impediment at the day of the marriage, and is a whole different topic.
 
Ok, so there seems to be a lot of gray area in the church’s teaching on what can justify a divorce/separation.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

So what constitutes grave mental danger or “otherwise renders common life too difficult”?

I’m really struggling in my marriage and quite sad that I’m even looking into this. But I’ve currently got so many doubts about my marriage right now. I know what the churches teaching on marriage is, literally till death do you part. Unless a decree of nullity is granted. I get all of that.
Having given what little advice I could about trying to find a way to revive the marriage, I will address your question.

The short of it is that the Church does not define what is grave mental danger, or what “otherwise renders common life too difficult”. Each marriage is unique in that it is made up of two specific people; and if one of them was substituted by another person the issues would be different if for no other reason than that there is a different person in the mix.

Another way of saying it is that you are responsible for determining whether the situation can be changed (e.g. through counseling, or through learning different techniques for dealing with the other person) or it cannot be changed; and if it cannot be changed, is it simply that you are unhappy (often, to an exceeding degree), and is the unhappiness due to serious matters, or just to failed expectations.

I practiced divorce law for a period of time; and i have seen mental and emotional abuse (and I don’t mean someone just being rude); physical abuse, (including one case that resulted in a murder/suicide), and cases where neither party seemed to have any clue what the word “love” meant, and one or both were essentially narcissistic. Some cases were marriages where one or both parties had put their time and effort into building careers or raising children, and as a result of their focus on others rather than the spouse, there had been a series of years where they grew further and further apart, and about the only communication they had were arguments. The essence was that both of them had failed the other.

No priest, no bishop, and no counselor can tell you what to do. It is up to you and your spouse as to whether you will pick up the pieces, get help, and put the marriage back on track, or if you will simply co-exist, or if you will divorce.

Ultimately you, or your spouse, or the both of you, decide what to do. The Church will not define it more clearly.
 
Ok, so there seems to be a lot of gray area in the church’s teaching on what can justify a divorce/separation.
Maybe a little less ‘gray’ than you might think…

Notice that the section from which you pulled this canon is entitled “separation with the bond remaining.” In other words, it’s talking about separation, not divorce (per se – after all, even when divorced, the bond remains, even if your civil status has changed). Inasmuch as the canons here talk about reuniting with your spouse, though, I think we can infer that it’s not talking about divorce.

So, this canon is talking simply about separation. Is your spouse abusive (mentally/emotionally or physically)? Does this present a danger to you or to any children that might be in the situation? Does it create a living situation that simply cannot be borne?

You’re right, of course: there’s no single ‘pat’ answer; you can’t just enter a few (name removed by moderator)uts and come up with a definite answer.
I’m really struggling in my marriage and quite sad that I’m even looking into this. But I’ve currently got so many doubts about my marriage right now.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re intending to say, but… “I’ve got doubts about my marriage” isn’t the same thing as saying “I feel personally unsafe in my marriage”.

I’ll be praying for you and your discernment…
 
Thank you for all the suggestions and support.

I’m fully aware of the possibility or need to live the rest of my life single in the even we separated and or divorced. There are kids involved and I’m aware of the affects that divorce has on children as I was raised by a single mother. I’m not saying that as justification or support for divorce. Just giving you a little insight into my background.

Ya’ll have provided the answer to my question…ultimately the ball is in my or our (my spouse and I) court. Only we can determine what might justify a divorce and whether we can live with the consequences of such actions.

Again I appreciate your thoughts and prayers.
 
Maybe a little less ‘gray’ than you might think…

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re intending to say, but… “I’ve got doubts about my marriage” isn’t the same thing as saying “I feel personally unsafe in my marriage”.

I’ll be praying for you and your discernment…
Perhaps I’m not clear on what I’m trying to say, because I don’t know what I’m trying to say. I’m just trying to have a better understanding of the church’s teaching in all aspects. Thank you for your response.
 
Maybe a little less ‘gray’ than you might think…

Notice that the section from which you pulled this canon is entitled “separation with the bond remaining.” In other words, it’s talking about separation, not divorce (per se – after all, even when divorced, the bond remains, even if your civil status has changed). Inasmuch as the canons here talk about reuniting with your spouse, though, I think we can infer that it’s not talking about divorce.
Keep in mind, also, that Canon law is written for the Universal Church. With no-fault divorce in the great majority of states, one can file for a separation, and that is about one heartbeat from a divorce case, as either party can convert it to one. And it is a very rare case, in my experience, that ends in a legal separation.
 
Keep in mind, also, that Canon law is written for the Universal Church. With no-fault divorce in the great majority of states, one can file for a separation, and that is about one heartbeat from a divorce case, as either party can convert it to one. And it is a very rare case, in my experience, that ends in a legal separation.
Yes. In fact, one of my aunties did not file for separation after her husband scooted off to a different state, because she was counseled of that very thing–even if she didn’t want a divorce, it would take very little effort for her husband to divorce her. So she just hung tight and didn’t file anything.

(They wound up divorced years later, as he eventually filed. It was kind of a mess at that point, as he somehow ran up $80k in credit card debt while they were legally married.)
 
So what constitutes grave mental danger or “otherwise renders common life too difficult”?..
I was in similar shoes when I became Catholic in 2000. My ex was verbally and emotionally abusive though I never read about that kind of abuse at that time, so I never used the word abuse (I just lived immersed in it without giving it a name). It was just “difficult” and “sad” and made me feel old to be married to him. But I accepted it as the “for worse” life I vowed to accept and lived to know God better, who was my comfort. Which led me to the Catholic Church. I certainly never questioned being married at that point; I was a young Mom, and looked everything like married to the world, and certainly to God, I thought.

When I met with the priest about my interest in becoming Catholic, the first thing he said was, “What does you husband think of this?” I quickly explained that I did not discuss it with him; we had been married a long time and I worked hard to not make him mad, and if I told him about anything I liked and was interested in it was sure to make him very, very angry. So in interest of being a good wife and having a peaceful home I avoided that - to keep my husband as happy as possible. However, God had made it clear to me that even my husband was not to come between God and my conscience, and this is part of what led me to the Catholic Church (from Evangelical Protestantism). I told the priest this because this was what mattered, what I came to see him for: Catholicism. Not to talk about my marraige, which I accepted as-is. However, the priest, to my shock, answered, “This is not a marraige. It can be annulled.” I quickly put him off that shocking subject and back onto the topic I came to see him about. I explained I had made a vow and I was sure that God wanted me to keep it.

I had been so surprised by this unexpected statement that I thought this priest, who was holy and good in every other way, and clearly was faithful to the truth of the Catholic Church, was wrong on this one thing, and I put it out of my mind. Becoming Catholic was the big deal on my mind at the time and that was all I wanted to think about.

However, I spoke to other priests in this journey to Catholicism. Always good priests. And never did I ask about the validity of my marriage which I assumed was valid because I made a vow in good faith. Yet every single priest, without my asking, made this same puzzling comment. (They all wanted to know where I stood sacramentally, I suppose, so the subject of my marraige had to come up). They all said I did not have a marriage. :eek:

After a graceful year of being Catholic, in May - Mary’s month - I stumbled on a book by Patricia Evans: Verbally Abusive relationships, How to Recognize Them and How to Respond. I did not consider myself abused, but I knew when my husband was mad (often) he used verbally abusive words, so I got this book for tips on how to respond. I never thought I was in a “verbally abusive relationship”. I saw mine simply as *marriage, *and had spent my marriage reading everything on how to improve my marriage, our communicating, and our relating, how to make my husband happy, but had never come across any reading on verbal abuse.

However, the book made me understand what the priests were saying. She had a list for what being in a verbally abusive relationship looks like. Well, I checked of pretty much all of the checks on the long list. But then there was also a list for what happens to YOU, living in a relationship like this. I recognized myself - this was my experience! Nothing had ever described it so clearly. And I knew it was WRONG for this to happen to anyone. It was SO CLEAR to me when i saw it all written out. I knew God that did not want ANYONE to be treated this way.

I soon realized that in addition, by NOT taking steps to stand up to it, I was helping my husband commit grave sin, on a regular basis. Basically I was assisting him in being his worst person. That’s how I saw it.

I imagine a priest would tell you that God does not want you to live like this. Also consider that your children are learning some terrible behavior as “normal”. How terrible. Why would they NOT end up verbally abusing their spouse, or accepting a verbal abuser as a spouse, since this is what they have learned is normal life? And so the cycle will continue. Unless you address it. Although there is much the same in every situation, including the very low possibility that many of them will change, each situation is different so the more you know the more you can judge your situation accurately. Asking here is one step, also reading, consulting the appropriate kind of counselor, and of course a priest. Or two. You want to be sure you see the situation clearly and see clearly what is the right course of action.

There are books that go even further than Evans as far as telling you how to respond to verbal abuse. I saw a newer one but I cannot remember the title. Basically you learn responses that make you a boring and unrewarding person to be verbally abusive to. Tools to diffuse them. (Calm answers like, “Oh? really? That must be hard.” - that sort of thing).

While such techniques do nothing to make yours into a *real marriage *as God intended for you - since it is impossible to create that if your husband is not able or not willing - it does make for some an option to keep the home intact, since it may possibly create a more peaceful home.
 
I was in similar shoes when I became Catholic in 2000. My ex was verbally and emotionally abusive though I never read about that kind of abuse at that time, so I never used the word abuse (I just lived immersed in it without giving it a name). It was just “difficult” and “sad” and made me feel old to be married to him. But I accepted it as the “for worse” life I vowed to accept and lived to know God better, who was my comfort. Which led me to the Catholic Church. I certainly never questioned being married at that point; I was a young Mom, and looked everything like married to the world, and certainly to God, I thought.

When I met with the priest about my interest in becoming Catholic, the first thing he said was, “What does you husband think of this?” I quickly explained that I did not discuss it with him; we had been married a long time and I worked hard to not make him mad, and if I told him about anything I liked and was interested in it was sure to make him very, very angry. So in interest of being a good wife and having a peaceful home I avoided that - to keep my husband as happy as possible. However, God had made it clear to me that even my husband was not to come between God and my conscience, and this is part of what led me to the Catholic Church (from Evangelical Protestantism). I told the priest this because this was what mattered, what I came to see him for: Catholicism. Not to talk about my marraige, which I accepted as-is. However, the priest, to my shock, answered, “This is not a marraige. It can be annulled.” I quickly put him off that shocking subject and back onto the topic I came to see him about. I explained I had made a vow and I was sure that God wanted me to keep it.

I had been so surprised by this unexpected statement that I thought this priest, who was holy and good in every other way, and clearly was faithful to the truth of the Catholic Church, was wrong on this one thing, and I put it out of my mind. Becoming Catholic was the big deal on my mind at the time and that was all I wanted to think about.

However, I spoke to other priests in this journey to Catholicism. Always good priests. And never did I ask about the validity of my marriage which I assumed was valid because I made a vow in good faith. Yet every single priest, without my asking, made this same puzzling comment. (They all wanted to know where I stood sacramentally, I suppose, so the subject of my marraige had to come up). They all said I did not have a marriage. :eek:

After a graceful year of being Catholic, in May - Mary’s month - I stumbled on a book by Patricia Evans: Verbally Abusive relationships, How to Recognize Them and How to Respond. I did not consider myself abused, but I knew when my husband was mad (often) he used verbally abusive words, so I got this book for tips on how to respond. I never thought I was in a “verbally abusive relationship”. I saw mine simply as *marriage, *and had spent my marriage reading everything on how to improve my marriage, our communicating, and our relating, how to make my husband happy, but had never come across any reading on verbal abuse.

However, the book made me understand what the priests were saying. She had a list for what being in a verbally abusive relationship looks like. Well, I checked of pretty much all of the checks on the long list. But then there was also a list for what happens to YOU, living in a relationship like this. I recognized myself - this was my experience! Nothing had ever described it so clearly. And I knew it was WRONG for this to happen to anyone. It was SO CLEAR to me when i saw it all written out. I knew God that did not want ANYONE to be treated this way.

I soon realized that in addition, by NOT taking steps to stand up to it, I was helping my husband commit grave sin, on a regular basis. Basically I was assisting him in being his worst person. That’s how I saw it.

I imagine a priest would tell you that God does not want you to live like this. Also consider that your children are learning some terrible behavior as “normal”. How terrible. Why would they NOT end up verbally abusing their spouse, or accepting a verbal abuser as a spouse, since this is what they have learned is normal life? And so the cycle will continue. Unless you address it. Although there is much the same in every situation, including the very low possibility that many of them will change, each situation is different so the more you know the more you can judge your situation accurately. Asking here is one step, also reading, consulting the appropriate kind of counselor, and of course a priest. Or two. You want to be sure you see the situation clearly and see clearly what is the right course of action.

There are books that go even further than Evans as far as telling you how to respond to verbal abuse. I saw a newer one but I cannot remember the title. Basically you learn responses that make you a boring and unrewarding person to be verbally abusive to. Tools to diffuse them. (Calm answers like, “Oh? really? That must be hard.” - that sort of thing).

While such techniques do nothing to make yours into a *real marriage *as God intended for you - since it is impossible to create that if your husband is not able or not willing - it does make for some an option to keep the home intact, since it may possibly create a more peaceful home.
Thank you for sharing. You are spot on.
 
Thank you for taking the time to share your story. I don’t know how my relationship with my spouse would be viewed by others. And I don’t want to make any rash decisions. I do firmly believe that God can and will take care of everything. If we take actions out of love and good intentions (although they may not always be right) God will show us his mercy.

Perhaps I need to look into the book you mentioned and do a bit more discovery for myself. Thank you all again for your time and testimonies.
I was in similar shoes when I became Catholic in 2000. My ex was verbally and emotionally abusive though I never read about that kind of abuse at that time, so I never used the word abuse (I just lived immersed in it without giving it a name). It was just “difficult” and “sad” and made me feel old to be married to him. But I accepted it as the “for worse” life I vowed to accept and lived to know God better, who was my comfort. Which led me to the Catholic Church. I certainly never questioned being married at that point; I was a young Mom, and looked everything like married to the world, and certainly to God, I thought.
When I met with the priest about my interest in becoming Catholic, the first thing he said was, “What does you husband think of this?” I quickly explained that I did not discuss it with him; we had been married a long time and I worked hard to not make him mad, and if I told him about anything I liked and was interested in it was sure to make him very, very angry. So in interest of being a good wife and having a peaceful home I avoided that - to keep my husband as happy as possible. However, God had made it clear to me that even my husband was not to come between God and my conscience, and this is part of what led me to the Catholic Church (from Evangelical Protestantism). I told the priest this because this was what mattered, what I came to see him for: Catholicism. Not to talk about my marraige, which I accepted as-is. However, the priest, to my shock, answered, “This is not a marraige. It can be annulled.” I quickly put him off that shocking subject and back onto the topic I came to see him about. I explained I had made a vow and I was sure that God wanted me to keep it.
I had been so surprised by this unexpected statement that I thought this priest, who was holy and good in every other way, and clearly was faithful to the truth of the Catholic Church, was wrong on this one thing, and I put it out of my mind. Becoming Catholic was the big deal on my mind at the time and that was all I wanted to think about.
However, I spoke to other priests in this journey to Catholicism. Always good priests. And never did I ask about the validity of my marriage which I assumed was valid because I made a vow in good faith. Yet every single priest, without my asking, made this same puzzling comment. (They all wanted to know where I stood sacramentally, I suppose, so the subject of my marraige had to come up). They all said I did not have a marriage.
After a graceful year of being Catholic, in May - Mary’s month - I stumbled on a book by Patricia Evans: Verbally Abusive relationships, How to Recognize Them and How to Respond. I did not consider myself abused, but I knew when my husband was mad (often) he used verbally abusive words, so I got this book for tips on how to respond. I never thought I was in a “verbally abusive relationship”. I saw mine simply as marriage, and had spent my marriage reading everything on how to improve my marriage, our communicating, and our relating, how to make my husband happy, but had never come across any reading on verbal abuse.
However, the book made me understand what the priests were saying. She had a list for what being in a verbally abusive relationship looks like. Well, I checked of pretty much all of the checks on the long list. But then there was also a list for what happens to YOU, living in a relationship like this. I recognized myself - this was my experience! Nothing had ever described it so clearly. And I knew it was WRONG for this to happen to anyone. It was SO CLEAR to me when i saw it all written out. I knew God that did not want ANYONE to be treated this way.
I soon realized that in addition, by NOT taking steps to stand up to it, I was helping my husband commit grave sin, on a regular basis. Basically I was assisting him in being his worst person. That’s how I saw it.
I imagine a priest would tell you that God does not want you to live like this. Also consider that your children are learning some terrible behavior as “normal”. How terrible. Why would they NOT end up verbally abusing their spouse, or accepting a verbal abuser as a spouse, since this is what they have learned is normal life? And so the cycle will continue. Unless you address it. Although there is much the same in every situation, including the very low possibility that many of them will change, each situation is different so the more you know the more you can judge your situation accurately. Asking here is one step, also reading, consulting the appropriate kind of counselor, and of course a priest. Or two. You want to be sure you see the situation clearly and see clearly what is the right course of action.
There are books that go even further than Evans as far as telling you how to respond to verbal abuse. I saw a newer one but I cannot remember the title. Basically you learn responses that make you a boring and unrewarding person to be verbally abusive to. Tools to diffuse them. (Calm answers like, “Oh? really? That must be hard.” - that sort of thing).
While such techniques do nothing to make yours into a real marriage as God intended for you - since it is impossible to create that if your husband is not able or not willing - it does make for some an option to keep the home intact, since it may possibly create a more peaceful home.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top