Divorce

[discipulus]

Hmm… it has always struck me as interesting an odd…

To the Catholic Church, homosexual marriage is a sin that should not be tolerated and violates all natural law. I agree that homosexual marriage is wrong, and that working to pass a law to forbid it from our country is a good thing.

So, my question: given that the Catholic church also forbids divorce just as much as it does homosexual “marriage” shouldn’t we also lobby to outlaw divorce as well? I mean, it seems right that we should be consistant.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

The difference is that divorce does not contradict natural law. Whereas homosexual activity can be observed as contrary to nature, the fact that divorce is morally wrong comes from theological understanding in light of Christ’s teaching. Because it is therefore a religious belief, and we as Catholic believe in the freedom of religion, we cannot impose such a belief on others by making it law.

 

[thistle]

discipulus:

Hmm… it has always struck me as interesting an odd…

To the Catholic Church, homosexual marriage is a sin that should not be tolerated and violates all natural law. I agree that homosexual marriage is wrong, and that working to pass a law to forbid it from our country is a good thing.

So, my question: given that the Catholic church also forbids divorce just as much as it does homosexual “marriage” shouldn’t we also lobby to outlaw divorce as well? I mean, it seems right that we should be consistant.

The reality is that it is easier to lobby to prevent a law coming into place, especially one that not only catholics think is bad, but unfortunately its tougher now to get divorce laws overturned when I believe the Philippines, where I live, is the only country left where divorce is illegal. In the developed countries in particular, Catholics are generally in the minority, so no amount of lobbying would make a difference anyway (that’s not to say its a waste lobbying).

 

[discipulus]

Dr. Colossus:

The difference is that divorce does not contradict natural law. Whereas homosexual activity can be observed as contrary to nature, the fact that divorce is morally wrong comes from theological understanding in light of Christ’s teaching. Because it is therefore a religious belief, and we as Catholic believe in the freedom of religion, we cannot impose such a belief on others by making it law.

So by saying that, wouldn’t that mean that our main reason for advocating against divorce is because it goes against natural law?

I thought that our main reason was because it was just wrong, and that should be enough for us to stop others from breaking apart a marriage (which I think could also be seen as somewhat against natural law, since people really need to be raised by both a mother and father, or at least that is ideal).

 

[DeFide]

discipulus:

Hmm… it has always struck me as interesting an odd…

To the Catholic Church, homosexual marriage is a sin that should not be tolerated and violates all natural law. I agree that homosexual marriage is wrong, and that working to pass a law to forbid it from our country is a good thing.

So, my question: given that the Catholic church also forbids divorce just as much as it does homosexual “marriage” shouldn’t we also lobby to outlaw divorce as well? I mean, it seems right that we should be consistant.

Technically, the Church does not object to the legal proceeding of divorce. It may be necessary to protect one person from another. In the eyes of the Church, they are still married if the marriage was valid to begin with.

The problem comes in when these married persons try to act like they’re married to someone else. This effectively becomes adultery.

 

[discipulus]

DeFide:

Technically, the Church does not object to the legal proceeding of divorce. It may be necessary to protect one person from another. In the eyes of the Church, they are still married if the marriage was valid to begin with.

The problem comes in when these married persons try to act like they’re married to someone else. This effectively becomes adultery.

Ahhh, that makes more sense, thank you for explaining that to me, I did not know that.

Hmm, but if the scenario you mentioned above occurs, should we then outlaw remarriage after divorce?

 

[thistle]

discipulus:

Ahhh, that makes more sense, thank you for explaining that to me, I did not know that.

Hmm, but if the scenario you mentioned above occurs, should we then outlaw remarriage after divorce?

That would not make any difference. People would simply live together as they predominently do currently.

 

[puzzleannie]

discipulus:

So, my question: given that the Catholic church also forbids divorce just as much as it does homosexual “marriage” shouldn’t we also lobby to outlaw divorce as well? I mean, it seems right that we should be consistant.

divorce, like homosexual acts and contraception, was illegal in all jurisdictions until the 1930s. The civil laws reflected the universal assumptions of the lawmakers and the people about natural law and the welfare of society and of individuals, and the importance of supporting marriage and family as the foundation of society. Are you asking should our legal system return to that orientation and suppport of the family?

 

[Yerusalyim]

Me thinks you need a more realistic view of what God wants and what the Church requires…sometimes divorce is necessary. A woman (or man) is beaten by their spouse on a regular basis…you expect the beaten spouse to remain married? Your wife sleeps with five different men in a one year period and tried to bring a different male and female to the bed…you should stay married to that? The husband or wife abandons the family, the marriage should remain in force.Divorce is a sad fact…but is sometimes justified…and the Church recognizes that fact. The Catechism and Canon law make provisions for divorce…it’s remarriage that is the issue. For instance, from para 2383
“If civil divorce reamins the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.”

The issues of divorce versus homosexual marriage are two entirely different issues…don’t let yourself get dragged into a position where you have to condemn divorce with the same arguements that are used to condemn the idea of gay marriage.

 

[Liberian]

thistle:

That would not make any difference. People would simply live together as they predominently do currently.

Thistle,

If I may disagree, it would indeed make a difference. People would still live together, but they would do it with the knowledge that they were doing something wrong. In the present situation, it is a lot easier for divorced-and-“remarried” people to delude themselves into thinking that their situation is okay.

• Liberian

 

[Mijoy2]

Yerusalyim:

The issues of divorce versus homosexual marriage are two entirely different issues…don’t let yourself get dragged into a position where you have to condemn divorce with the same arguements that are used to condemn the idea of gay marriage.

The issue of gay marriage and marriage following a divorce that is still valid in the eyes ofthe church is not all that different in the respect of in both cases, one is committing adultry. Of course, gay marriage also introduces the concept of being unnatural.

I think the former argument is a strong one.

 

[thistle]

Liberian:

Thistle,

If I may disagree, it would indeed make a difference. People would still live together, but they would do it with the knowledge that they were doing something wrong. In the present situation, it is a lot easier for divorced-and-“remarried” people to delude themselves into thinking that their situation is okay.

• Liberian

If they are Catholic they already know it is wrong without the need for a civil law telling them.

 

[Liberian]

Yerusalyim:

Me thinks you need a more realistic view of what God wants and what the Church requires…sometimes divorce is necessary. A woman (or man) is beaten by their spouse on a regular basis…you expect the beaten spouse to remain married?

Yes. She (or he) may live apart from him, but she (or he) should stay married.

Your wife sleeps with five different men in a one year period and tried to bring a different male and female to the bed…you should stay married to that?

Yes. Just because she messed up doesn’t give you the license to mess up. I direct your attention to the book of Hosea.

The husband or wife abandons the family, the marriage should remain in force.

Yes, the marriage should remain in force.

Divorce is a sad fact…but is sometimes justified…and the Church recognizes that fact.

Perhaps we use the term “justified” differently. I will recognize that divorce is sometimes a necessity because of various provisions in our secular legal system, but it is never a good thing to do.

The issues of divorce versus homosexual marriage are two entirely different issues…don’t let yourself get dragged into a position where you have to condemn divorce with the same arguements that are used to condemn the idea of gay marriage.

This is correct; divorce and homosexual marriage are indeed different things. But that does not mean that we should accept divorce as a good thing.

• Liberian

 

[Yerusalyim]

The issue of gay marriage and marriage following a divorce that is still valid in the eyes ofthe church is not all that different in the respect of in both cases, one is committing adultry. Of course, gay marriage also introduces the concept of being unnatural.

I think the former argument is a strong one.

I have to disagree. The Church recognizes that SOMETIMES divorce is necessary…the church recognizes that gay marriage is ALWAYS wrong…

More than that, even if civil law allows gay marriage, no true sacramental marriage can exist…whereas, even in a case where marriage is attempted by a couple and witnessed by a priest there may be situations which create an invalid sacramental marriage.

Further, the church could doctrinally care less if a couple that was not married sacramentally receive a divorce. If they aren’t married sacramentally then no true marriage exists, therefore, civil divorce is meaningless to the Church.

I keep saying and will once again state, the issues of divorce versus gay marriage are two seperate arguements. This is an arguement used time and again by those who SUPPORT gay marriage to try to force christians into a moral corner.

 

[Petergee]

puzzleannie:

divorce, like homosexual acts and contraception, was illegal in all jurisdictions until the 1930s.

No, in most protestant-majority states and countries, divorce has been legal since the 16th century, although until recent decades it was more difficult to get a divorce, and divorce was quite rare.

The Church agrees with people obtaining a civil “divorce” in some circumstances, but it understands this “divorce” as a legally enforced separation, NOT as what the State understands, that the spouses are free to remarry.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Liberian:

Yes. She (or he) may live apart from him, but she (or he) should stay married.

Yes. Just because she messed up doesn’t give you the license to mess up. I direct your attention to the book of Hosea.

Yes, the marriage should remain in force.

Perhaps we use the term “justified” differently. I will recognize that divorce is sometimes a necessity because of various provisions in our secular legal system, but it is never a good thing to do.

This is correct; divorce and homosexual marriage are indeed different things. But that does not mean that we should accept divorce as a good thing.

• Liberian

I can only encourage you to read the CCC, it will give you a slightly different view than you propose…the CCC states there are valid reasons for divorce…I didn’t say divorce was “good” only that it is sometimes justified. Further, if it can be shown that a true sacramental marriage didn’t exist, what harm divorce?

 

[Texan_in_DC]

discipulus:

Hmm… it has always struck me as interesting an odd…

To the Catholic Church, homosexual marriage is a sin that should not be tolerated and violates all natural law. I agree that homosexual marriage is wrong, and that working to pass a law to forbid it from our country is a good thing.

So, my question: given that the Catholic church also forbids divorce just as much as it does homosexual “marriage” shouldn’t we also lobby to outlaw divorce as well? I mean, it seems right that we should be consistant.

Short answer NO.

Divorce which is never a good thing sometimes is a very important thing to happen. Example a woman getting beat by her husband should be able to have the right to divorce him and still have him support her through her getting half or/and child support for the kids even if bc of being a bad man can not actually have any custody, goes both ways too.

I do not think the issue from the Church’s standpoint is divorce per say, but remarriage. But I still think and believe that teaching should remain inside our faith and not push it through policy on others that might have differing views even if they are wrong.

The same goes for gay marriage, we as Catholics have to hold firm to the truth of our Church, so it doesnt matter what they want to call it, by natural law and selection a united marriage between man and man or woman and woman is not possible. Again call it what you want, but neither you or me can change God’s law or His way, even through public policy

 

[Mijoy2]

Yerusalyim:

I have to disagree. The Church recognizes that SOMETIMES divorce is necessary…the church recognizes that gay marriage is ALWAYS wrong…

.

Yerusalyim, with all do respect, you didn’t read my post. You disagreed with something I did not say. I stated that marriage following a divorce (implied no annulment) was adultry. I didn’t say divorce was sometimes not necessary. The church ALWAYS defines a marital relationship, following a civil divorce, with no annulment, as wrong. (assuming the marriage was valid to begin with).

 

[Yerusalyim]

Mijoy,

Point conceded that I misread, I guess I need to read closer. However, I do stand by the statement that gay marriage and civil divorce are two completely seperate issues.

 

[melbourne_guy]

I dont now what fairy land you people are living in but i come from melbourne and all i see is divorce. To rally against it would be a lost cause. My cousin recently got a seperation and even before the divorce shes back on the dating scene, quite sad really since she has three kids. My other cousin lives with her partner and they never plan to get married.
Theres great quote i heard from the Godfather 2
Michael: (To Connie) The ink on your divorce isn’t dry yet, and you’re getting married
lol