M
Mendieta
Guest
Is it accurate to say that we are allowed to divorce ONLY if your partner is unfaithful.
I believe it to be.
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
I believe it to be.
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
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K
Karin
Guest
No …as per CCC# 2383
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense
T
thistle
Guest
That’s right but of course a civil divorce does not mean the marriage of a Catholic couple is invalid. A civil divorce on its own does not allow Catholics to remarry and if they did then it would be a grave sin.
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jemfinch
Guest
No. True divorce is never to be allowed. “What God has joined, let no man put asunder.”
The Church, as mentioned above, does allow civil divorce in certain cases when necessary for civil reasons, but the partners remain married in the eyes of the Church.
The prohibitions against divorce in Scripture are all rather strict, and the only ones that mention the “fornication” exception are also in the book of Matthew, the only book that mentions that Joseph considered divorcing Mary when he found that she was pregnant. The Greek does not say “unfaithfulness,” despite what the NIV translates porneia as; it doesn’t say “adultery,” because the word for adultery (used in Matthew 15 immediately adjacent to porneia) is moicheia. The exception given in Matthew is for those who discover, during a betrothal (engagement) period, that their partner has fornicated. To break the engagement was considered a divorce in those times.
Marriage is lifelong, and cannot be dissolved.
Jeremy
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Karin
Guest
A “Sacramental marriage” can not be dissolved
A divorce is the dissolving of a marriage that really existed. An annulment is a declaration that there never was, in actuality, a marriage.
M
Mendieta
Guest
Don’t get me wrong, i think the right thing to do would always remain together even if your partner is unfaithful. I think God would be pleased if this were done. But i still think Jesus was still some what merciful when he was laying the law for divorce.
In my Good New Bible Catholic edition it is said in Matthew 5:31…
It was also said, “Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a written permit of divorce” But now i tell you: if a man divorces his wife, for any cause OTHER THEN HER UNFAITHFULNESS, then he is guilty of her commit adultery if she marries again.
To me i read this… The man is in trouble for divorcing his wife unless she was unfaithful.
Your thoughts please.
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
In my Good New Bible Catholic edition it is said in Matthew 5:31…
It was also said, “Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a written permit of divorce” But now i tell you: if a man divorces his wife, for any cause OTHER THEN HER UNFAITHFULNESS, then he is guilty of her commit adultery if she marries again.
To me i read this… The man is in trouble for divorcing his wife unless she was unfaithful.
Your thoughts please.
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
The sacrament of matrimony happens with, in and through the blessing of the Church and Christ.
Divorce is a civil ruling.
Jesus says: “Moses allowed divorce because your hearts were hard.” I believe this means; your hardened heart “makes” you to understand Moses said divorce is good. But that is not what Moses meant. It is similar to America’s teaching on abortion as a freedom of choice issue. Our hardened hearts “make” us to misunderstand abortion as freedom. It is slavery to selfishness.
Divorce is a civil ruling.
Jesus says: “Moses allowed divorce because your hearts were hard.” I believe this means; your hardened heart “makes” you to understand Moses said divorce is good. But that is not what Moses meant. It is similar to America’s teaching on abortion as a freedom of choice issue. Our hardened hearts “make” us to misunderstand abortion as freedom. It is slavery to selfishness.
D
Dorothy
Guest
It is the translations from the original ancient languages that make for poor understanding. Someone in a previous post (look them over) addressed this problem. Porneia referred to one of the engaged party (Jewish) who committed fornication. Jewish law allowed them to “divorce” in this case. (Engagement was considered almost a marriage in their tradition.)
It is so easy to become confused without the teaching authority of the Church to guide us on certain Scriptures.
M
Mendieta
Guest
I believe “Moses allowed divorce because your hearts were hard.” because the hearts of men were cold and poor, no forgiveness nor mercy. God knew how weak the men were at heart, thats why divorce was permitted. I believe Jesus came though to lift the bar though to set things how they truly should be in Gods eyes which is why he said:
Taken from Good News Bible Catholic edition it is said in Matthew 5:31…
It was also said, “Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a written permit of divorce” But now i tell you: if a man divorces his wife, for any cause OTHER THEN HER UNFAITHFULNESS, then he is guilty of her commit adultery if she marries again.
Here again God is still understanding our weak hearts, he no longer permits divorce how it was before but still understands our weakness when it comes to unfaithfulness. (which itself is forbidden)
Yours thoughts
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
K
Karin
Guest
Divorce is a “civil” matter that is only allowed as per CCC If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offenseI believe “Moses allowed divorce because your hearts were hard.” because the hearts of men were cold and poor, no forgiveness nor mercy. God knew how weak the men were at heart, thats why divorce was permitted. I believe Jesus came though to lift the bar though to set things how they truly should be in Gods eyes which is why he said:
Taken from Good News Bible Catholic edition it is said in Matthew 5:31…
It was also said, “Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a written permit of divorce” But now i tell you: if a man divorces his wife, for any cause OTHER THEN HER UNFAITHFULNESS, then he is guilty of her commit adultery if she marries again.
Here again God is still understanding our weak hearts, he no longer permits divorce how it was before but still understands our weakness when it comes to unfaithfulness. (which itself is forbidden)
Yours thoughts
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
C
cameron_lansing
Guest
Michael,
You have repeated a quote from the so called “Good New Bible Catholic edition” twice.
You may not be aware that this is merely a paraphrase of the scriptures.
It is not a translation, and I encourage you to read a good Catholic translation and then reconsider your conclusions on the matter.
The Matthean texts in chapter 5 and 19 use the Greek “porneia" which cannot not mean “unfaithfulness” by any stretch of the norms of interpretation. The word has been discussed in this forum and in the library of Catholic answers. I do suggest you look for this discussion within these resources.
Jemfinch and Dorothy have responded quite correctly about the term.
M
Mendieta
Guest
Sorry but i did directly copy that verse from a Catholic Bible which is pretty new and modern. Plus i have read similar text which says the same thing in several different bibles.
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
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Karin
Guest
Matthew 5:31-32:
21 31 "It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’
32 But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
21 [31-32] See Deut 24:1-5. The Old Testament commandment that a bill of divorce be given to the woman assumes the legitimacy of divorce itself. It is this that Jesus denies. (Unless the marriage is unlawful): this “exceptive clause,” as it is often called, occurs also in Matthew 19:9, where the Greek is slightly different. There are other sayings of Jesus about divorce that prohibit it absolutely (see Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18; cf 1 Cor 7:10, 11b), and most scholars agree that they represent the stand of Jesus. Matthew’s “exceptive clauses” are understood by some as a modification of the absolute prohibition. It seems, however, that the unlawfulness that Matthew gives as a reason why a marriage must be broken refers to a situation peculiar to his community: the violation of Mosaic law forbidding marriage between persons of certain blood and/or legal relationship (Lev 18:6-18). Marriages of that sort were regarded as incest (porneia), but some rabbis allowed Gentile converts to Judaism who had contracted such marriages to remain in them. Matthew’s “exceptive clause” is against such permissiveness for Gentile converts to Christianity; cf the similar prohibition of porneia in Acts 15:20, 29. In this interpretation, the clause constitutes no exception to the absolute prohibition of divorce when the marriage is lawful.
catholic.org/phpframedirect/out.php?url=http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm
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dmm2000
Guest
Michael,
I note 2 issues in your question. The first is the concept of Mercy. Mercy is not only forgiveness, but just as important, it is the forgivenss in order to restore someone to their true nature. For example in the parable of the prodigal son the focus is on the Father’s mercy in restoring his sons sonship, his true nature.
When you mention Jesus being merciful, he is not giving us a way out of a difficult situation of unfaithfulness, but he is stating the the true nature of marriage is unitive, not only with man and woman, but with God, that is why he directs their attention to In the beginning. Before, the fall, the 2 became 1. He is reestablishing the unitive nature of marriage. Even though Israel has been unfaithful to the covenant, Jesus did not divorce them, he lays down his life to restore them. This is why the apostle think this is a tough saying. Only through God’s grace is it possible to live the true nature of marriage.
The other issue is when you state “I read this…” as others have pointed out, Jesus left us the Church to guides us in matters such as this, and does not leave us hanging in the wind in regards to what will lead to our salvation.
Hope this is useful.
God Bless
M
Mendieta
Guest
Yes you made some good points there, you mentioned
“that is why he directs their attention to In the beginning. Before, the fall, the 2 became 1. He is reestablishing the unitive nature of marriage” Yes Jesus did refer to the beginning and describe how God intended marriage to be, but in the beginning there was not sin or “unfaithfulness” to occur. One of the 10 commandments are, thou shall not commit adultery. Should there not be some consequence of adultery in marriage of this mortal sin? That is why it seems valid to me. If mortal sin seperates us from god (which is why we must go to confession) why then does it not seperate man and woman in marriage, God is greater then any man.
Yes Israel was unfaithful to god and he did not leave the people, but he did leave that church/bride/religion and started a new.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
K
Karin
Guest
Michael what exactly are you attempting to figure out or justify with your question?
M
Mendieta
Guest
K
Karin
Guest
That I haveJust read the discussion.
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
it would seem from this thread and others that you have posted you are really having issues with what the Church does and says
M
Mendieta
Guest
Karin,That I have
it would seem from this thread and others that you have posted you are really having issues with what the Church does and says
I am a Catholic, I have a Catholic bible, i have an understanding. If all this is not inl ine with what the church says with good reason am i not entitled to ask the question.
If the church teaches certain things aren’t i able to question why? Am i not allowed to wonder why is it like that? Do you just accept what the church teaches even not knowing why it is that way?
Thanks
Michael Ivan Mendieta
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Karin
Guest
Yes I did notice that you where Catholic from your profile
By all means ask all your questions that your heart desires…but several people have already pointed out to you some very valid points regarding your original question…nope I do not just accpet all teachings of the Church blindly…but when I ask a question and people reply that are more knowledgable than I, I understand the teaching and do not keep questioning things or insisting my interpertation of something is correct
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