Divorced, Not Baptised

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StFrancis2

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My Dear Old Father-in-Law wants to become a Catholic. He has never been baptized. He is in his second marriage and is not motivated to have his first marriage annulled. His currernt wife of 30 some years was baptized Catholic, but is not practicing. As his RCIA sponcer, do I have a problem here?

PS - I asked our priest but his simple answer was “We have a don’t ask, don’t tell policy.” So maybe I have two problems. My Father-in Law really likes this priest, so moving doesn’t seem an option.
 
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StFrancis2:
My Dear Old Father-in-Law wants to become a Catholic. He has never been baptized. He is in his second marriage and is not motivated to have his first marriage annulled. His currernt wife of 30 some years was baptized Catholic, but is not practicing. As his RCIA sponcer, do I have a problem here?

PS - I asked our priest but his simple answer was “We have a don’t ask, don’t tell policy.” So maybe I have two problems. My Father-in Law really likes this priest, so moving doesn’t seem an option.
Your priest’s advice is certainly unhelpful, but not unlike several over the years.:o If moving is not an option ask a priest that is a bit more serious about his vocation than the one you have. Maybe you can switch to Orthodoxy or at least to Eastern Catholicism where most of the priests are a bit more serious.

CDL
 
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StFrancis2:
My Dear Old Father-in-Law wants to become a Catholic. He has never been baptized. He is in his second marriage and is not motivated to have his first marriage annulled. His currernt wife of 30 some years was baptized Catholic, but is not practicing. As his RCIA sponcer, do I have a problem here?

PS - I asked our priest but his simple answer was “We have a don’t ask, don’t tell policy.” So maybe I have two problems. My Father-in Law really likes this priest, so moving doesn’t seem an option.
Yes you do have a big problem but it not with your Father-In-Law but the other Fr. IF your FIL was married to an unbaltized person in the first marriage then it is possible for a special privilege to be granted.

If the person he is currently living with simply stopped practicing the Faith and did not leave it then yes he does need to seek an annulment.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Yes you do have a big problem but it not with your Father-In-Law but the other Fr. IF your FIL was married to an unbaltized person in the first marriage then it is possible for a special privilege to be granted.

If the person he is currently living with simply stopped practicing the Faith and did not leave it then yes he does need to seek an annulment.
Well, that all depends. We need more information to make a good statement about this. I am assuming that according to the Title of this thread that the OP’s Father in Law was not baptised. In that case he was unable in all circumstances to inter into an indissoluable marriage because he did not have the character afforded at baptism which is necessary for a sacramental marriage (both persons in the marriage must be baptised persons not just one or the other). Therefore, if this is true then it is possible that no annulment is necessary and can be an issue straightened out when he goes to regularize his marriage. However, the further question is which the current lady that he is living with and if she was previously married or not which could cause a lot more problems. So in a sense a lot more information is needed to make a sound judgment.
 
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GregoryPalamas:
Your priest’s advice is certainly unhelpful, but not unlike several over the years.:o If moving is not an option ask a priest that is a bit more serious about his vocation than the one you have. Maybe you can switch to Orthodoxy or at least to Eastern Catholicism where most of the priests are a bit more serious.

CDL
do you honestly think that running into one Catholic priest who fails to present Catholic doctrine fully and accurately means that one should abandon the Catholic Church? I am certainly relieved to discover that there are NO bad, misinformed or misbehaving priests in the Eastern Rites or in the Orthodox churches.

In any case, every marriage situation is different, we have hear a third-hand report of the specifics of the actual marriage situation of a certain person (with no details whatever about the first marriage), and a third hand report on what a certain priest actually counselled about the situation. The gentleman in question pursues this with his priest, we do not make a judgment nor have we any right to do so.
 
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mosher:
Well, that all depends. We need more information to make a good statement about this. I am assuming that according to the Title of this thread that the OP’s Father in Law was not baptised. In that case he was unable in all circumstances to inter into an indissoluable marriage because he did not have the character afforded at baptism which is necessary for a sacramental marriage (both persons in the marriage must be baptised persons not just one or the other). Therefore, if this is true then it is possible that no annulment is necessary and can be an issue straightened out when he goes to regularize his marriage. However, the further question is which the current lady that he is living with and if she was previously married or not which could cause a lot more problems. So in a sense a lot more information is needed to make a sound judgment.
I will never give specific answers to specific marriage situations. The above is general information. There was little information in the original post. A non-Sacramental marriage of two non-Baptized people as well as a marriage between a Baptized (Catholic or non-Catholic Christian) and a non Baptized person. If valid it is not Sacramental, but is still indissoluable except in certain very specific circumstances.
 
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mosher:
Well, that all depends. We need more information to make a good statement about this. I am assuming that according to the Title of this thread that the OP’s Father in Law was not baptised. In that case he was unable in all circumstances to inter into an indissoluable marriage because he did not have the character afforded at baptism which is necessary for a sacramental marriage (both persons in the marriage must be baptised persons not just one or the other). Therefore, if this is true then it is possible that no annulment is necessary and can be an issue straightened out when he goes to regularize his marriage. However, the further question is which the current lady that he is living with and if she was previously married or not which could cause a lot more problems. So in a sense a lot more information is needed to make a sound judgment.
Mosher,

Valid marriages may be what’s called “natural bond” marriages. These take place between two unbaptized persons or between a baptized and unbaptized persons. Such marriages need to be examined for validity. In the case of one who seeks entry into the Chruch it is possible that either a Petrine or Pauline Privilege process may be used.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
Mosher,

Valid marriages may be what’s called “natural bond” marriages. These take place between two unbaptized persons or between a baptized and unbaptized persons. Such marriages need to be examined for validity. In the case of one who seeks entry into the Chruch it is possible that either a Petrine or Pauline Privilege process may be used.

Deacon Ed
Exactly my point because the sacramental quality of matrimony is what makes the marriage indissoluable.
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puzzleannie:
I am certainly relieved to discover that there are NO bad, misinformed or misbehaving priests in the Eastern Rites or in the Orthodox churches.
This just made me laugh!
 
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mosher:
Exactly my point because the sacramental quality of matrimony is what makes the marriage indissoluable.
Um, no, it’s not. If the marriage is valid, whether it is a natural bond or sacramental then it is indissoluable. The sole exception is the favor of the faith/Pauline privilege that the Church may grant.

Canon 1060 tells us that “marriage possesses the favor of law” and, therefore, all marriages (not just sacramental marriages) are presumed valid until proven otherwise. If the natural bond marriage is found to be valid, then it is also indissoluable.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
Um, no, it’s not. If the marriage is valid, whether it is a natural bond or sacramental then it is indissoluable. The sole exception is the favor of the faith/Pauline privilege that the Church may grant.

Canon 1060 tells us that “marriage possesses the favor of law” and, therefore, all marriages (not just sacramental marriages) are presumed valid until proven otherwise. If the natural bond marriage is found to be valid, then it is also indissoluable.

Deacon Ed
Perhaps it is a manner of speech that is confusing this situation. I believe that you are using the term valid equivocally which is in error. Validity for a Sacramental Marriage and a Natural Marriage is distinctionaly different. Also, indissoluable for the two cases is also not an equivocal term because of the existance of the Pauline privilege which is a dissolution of the natural marriage in essence and in law. However, a Sacramental marriage has no such “loop hole” so to speak because of the very nature concordant with its sacramental character.
 
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mosher:
Perhaps it is a manner of speech that is confusing this situation. I believe that you are using the term valid equivocally which is in error. Validity for a Sacramental Marriage and a Natural Marriage is distinctionaly different. Also, indissoluable for the two cases is also not an equivocal term because of the existance of the Pauline privilege which is a dissolution of the natural marriage in essence and in law. However, a Sacramental marriage has no such “loop hole” so to speak because of the very nature concordant with its sacramental character.
A valid non-Sacramental natural Marriage between a Baptized Christian and a non-baptized person is indissoluable.

The only exception allowing a valid, non-Sacramental marriage bond to be disolved is when BOTH persons were not Baptized and one seeks Baptism and the other will not live in peace with them. Then they may seek to marry another Christian after their Baptism. They may not seek to marry another non-Baptized person. They may dissoulve the natural bond only to enter into a Sacramental bond. A very, very narrow exception.
 
OK, we know that indissolubility is an essential property of marriage, “which in Christian marriage obtain a special firmness by reason of the sacrament.” (Canon 1056)

Yet, dissoluble / indissoluble are not equivocal terms in jurisprudence and doctrine. They are used in different ways because there are different kinds of marriage — those that are sacraments and those that are not. As others have noted, we always have to look for that kind of context.

For clarity, canon lawyers find the** distinction between intrinsic dissolubility / indissolubility and extrinsic dissolubility / indissolubility** to be helpful. Perhaps you may also. (John Paul II spoke of the distinction in his 2000 allocution to the Roman Rota. It can be read at the Vatican website.)
  1. To say a marriage is intrinsically indissoluble means that the parties themselves, once having given valid marital consent, cannot dissolve it later by the subsequent withdrawal of consent. Marriage is always intrinsically indissoluble. The parties lack the authority in themselves to dissolve a valid marriage (of course, an invalid one cannot be dissolved but just declared invalid).
  2. To say a marriage is extrinsically indissoluble means that no outside or external party or authority can dissolve the marriage of the baptized once it is consummated. Canon 1141 states that “A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death.” As canon 1061 describes, a valid marriage of the baptized who have properly consummated it, is called ratum et consummatum (ratified and consummated).
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church then puts it: “Thus the marriage bond has been established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable, and gives rise to a covenant guaranteed by God’s fidelity. The Church does not have the power to contravene this disposition of divine wisdom” (n. 1640).
  1. However, a marriage which is not a sacrament is extrinsically dissoluble. It can be dissolved by the authority of the Church in two situations.
3.1 The Church is certain that Christ gave permission, declared by the Apostle Paul in First Corinthians, for what is called the Pauline privilege. It is the dissolution of a naturally valid marriage between two unbaptized persons by the law itself under certain conditions. The fact that the conditions are met is then declared by a competent authority of the Church (the local ordinary, e.g., the diocesan bishop, vicar general). See canon 1143 +.

3.2. “It is certainly known that the marriage between non-Catholics, of whom at least one is not baptized, can be dissolved by the Roman Pontiff in favor the faith and for the salvation of souls, when certain conditions are fulfilled.” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Norms To Complete the Process for the Dissolution of the Matrimonial Bond in Favor of the Faith,” 2001) This is often called the Petrine privilege.
  1. Morever, a non consummated marriage regardless of baptismal status is extrinsically dissoluble. It can be dissolved by the supreme authority of the Church. Canon 1142: “A non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and non baptized party can be dissolved by the Roman Pontiff for a just cause, at the request of both parties or of one of the parties, even if the other party is unwilling.”
Hope this may be of some help.
 
Deacon John,

Thanks for the additional canonical support. As I believe I said, the two cases where a natural bond marriage can be dissolved are the Pauline Privilege and the Petrine privilege (which, interestingly enough, is no longer found in canon law).

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
Deacon John,

Thanks for the additional canonical support. As I believe I said, the two cases where a natural bond marriage can be dissolved are the Pauline Privilege and the Petrine privilege (which, interestingly enough, is no longer found in canon law).

Deacon Ed
Deacon Ed,

It’s still there in canon 1142: “A non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and nonbaptized party can be dissolved by the Roman Pontiff for a just cause, at the request of both parties or of one of the parties, even if the other party is unwilling.”

I should have referenced that, but I thought the norms gave a nice summary Like other parts of the law, the norms are extra-codal. It’s just one of cases where terms in law rely on meanings that are better explained elsewhere.

John
 
Thank you for the further information. Once again Deacon Ed and I are on the same team just using slightly different terms.
 
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cameron_lansing:
Deacon Ed,

It’s still there in canon 1142: “A non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and nonbaptized party can be dissolved by the Roman Pontiff for a just cause, at the request of both parties or of one of the parties, even if the other party is unwilling.”

I should have referenced that, but I thought the norms gave a nice summary Like other parts of the law, the norms are extra-codal. It’s just one of cases where terms in law rely on meanings that are better explained elsewhere.

John
Deacon John,

Thanks. I knew it was still in force, but since I haven’t had recourse to it in several years, had forgotten about where it was and a quick scan did not turn it up for me…

Deacon Ed
 
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cameron_lansing:
OK, we know that indissolubility is an essential property of marriage, “which in Christian marriage obtain a special firmness by reason of the sacrament.” (Canon 1056)

Yet, dissoluble / indissoluble are not equivocal terms in jurisprudence and doctrine. They are used in different ways because there are different kinds of marriage — those that are sacraments and those that are not. As others have noted, we always have to look for that kind of context.

For clarity, canon lawyers find the** distinction between intrinsic dissolubility / indissolubility and extrinsic dissolubility / indissolubility** to be helpful. Perhaps you may also. (John Paul II spoke of the distinction in his 2000 allocution to the Roman Rota. It can be read at the Vatican website.)
  1. To say a marriage is intrinsically indissoluble means that the parties themselves, once having given valid marital consent, cannot dissolve it later by the subsequent withdrawal of consent. Marriage is always intrinsically indissoluble. The parties lack the authority in themselves to dissolve a valid marriage (of course, an invalid one cannot be dissolved but just declared invalid).
  2. To say a marriage is extrinsically indissoluble means that no outside or external party or authority can dissolve the marriage of the baptized once it is consummated. Canon 1141 states that “A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death.” As canon 1061 describes, a valid marriage of the baptized who have properly consummated it, is called ratum et consummatum (ratified and consummated).
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church then puts it: “Thus the marriage bond has been established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable, and gives rise to a covenant guaranteed by God’s fidelity. The Church does not have the power to contravene this disposition of divine wisdom” (n. 1640).
  1. However, a marriage which is not a sacrament is extrinsically dissoluble. It can be dissolved by the authority of the Church in two situations.
3.1 The Church is certain that Christ gave permission, declared by the Apostle Paul in First Corinthians, for what is called the Pauline privilege. It is the dissolution of a naturally valid marriage between two unbaptized persons by the law itself under certain conditions. The fact that the conditions are met is then declared by a competent authority of the Church (the local ordinary, e.g., the diocesan bishop, vicar general). See canon 1143 +.

3.2. “It is certainly known that the marriage between non-Catholics, of whom at least one is not baptized, can be dissolved by the Roman Pontiff in favor the faith and for the salvation of souls, when certain conditions are fulfilled.” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Norms To Complete the Process for the Dissolution of the Matrimonial Bond in Favor of the Faith,” 2001) This is often called the Petrine privilege.
  1. Morever, a non consummated marriage regardless of baptismal status is extrinsically dissoluble. It can be dissolved by the supreme authority of the Church. Canon 1142: “A non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and non baptized party can be dissolved by the Roman Pontiff for a just cause, at the request of both parties or of one of the parties, even if the other party is unwilling.”
Hope this may be of some help.
Ok I hope this jives with my posted answers.

I still would like to address that other possibility.

A valid and consummated natural marriage between two unbaptized persons. Is it intrinsically indissoluble as well as extrinsically dissoluble but only in the case of the Pauline and Petrine privilege?
 
**First, Deacon Ed and All,

What ever was I thinking in citing canon 1142 for the Petrine? ** This is just grossly wrong on my part and negligent due to being hasty in glancing at my notes in the margin of the code. What I should have said is that the norms were deleted from draft and reached for my optometrist’s phone number.

The correct answer, of course, is found in your earlier statement, that we shall not find this in the code. And it is interesting it is not treated. As the 2001 norms on favor of the faith cases say, “When the Code of Canon Law was undergoing revision, a schema of canons was produced in which both the principles of substantive law and the procedural norms for the dissolution of the marriage bond in favor of the faith were proposed together. It seemed more opportune to Higher Authority, however, that this difficult material not be included in the Code but be entrusted to particular norms, specially approved by the Supreme Pontiff and issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”
Br. Rich SFO:
I still would like to address that other possibility. A valid and consummated natural marriage between two unbaptized persons. Is it intrinsically indissoluble as well as extrinsically dissoluble but only in the case of the Pauline and Petrine privilege?
Brother Rich,

It would be intrinsically indissoluble in the sense that the withdrawal of consent by either party is not able to sever the bond.

It is extrinsically dissoluble only in the case of the Pauline privilege in favor of the faith under the terms of canon 1143-1147 and the norms for the Petrine. In each case, an authority beyond the parties declares or effects the dissolution. Those means have an efficacious result.
 
Deacon John:

Thanks – that means I’m not losing my mind (or, at least, on this topic I was still okay).

Deacon Ed
 
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