Dmitry Rostov a Saint?

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Do Ukrainian or Ruthenian Catholics venerate Dmitry Rostov as a Saint? He established the Brotherhood of the Immaculate Conception in the 17th century (not sure if that was before or after the union). Apparently, belief in the Immaculate Conception was strong in the Ukrainian region?

Do Ukrainian Catholics see the IC as a Latinization, or a legitimate part of its own local Tradition?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Cluny,
Cluny said:
St. Dmitri of Rostov is commemorated on 21 September and 28 October on the Orthodox Calendar.

orthodoxwiki.org/Dimitri_of_Rostov

Could you tell me a little bit more about his apparent devotion to the Immaculate Conception?
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I don’t know much except what I learned online. The first time I knew anything about it was several months ago when researching the topic for a discussion on the IC at an Orthodox website (where I managed to convince some that it at least wasn’t a heresy).

Here is an Eastern Orthodox source:
eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/the-immaculate-conception-and-the-orthodox-church-3/

There’s a Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in NW Russia, but I don’t know if it is Russian Catholic or Russian Orthodox. It was established in 1686.
agniphoto-com.1gb.ru/view0_e.asp?id=1179

Here’s another website, though I don’t know if it is Ukrainian Catholic or Ukrainian Orthodox: angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Rosary.htm

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Do Ukrainian or Ruthenian Catholics venerate Dmitry Rostov as a Saint?
Blessings,
Marduk
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No, he is not a saint in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. He was canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church. The internal arguments of the Orthodox Church at the time of Dmitry are quite interesting because Russia did not have as much learned religious as Ukraine did with the Kyivan Mohyla Academy; hence, Russians depended at this time on theological learning to a great extent from Ukrainian religious such as Feofan Prokopovych, and many others. The irony of course was that Moscow took this learning from East Slavics’ “Jerusalem” Ukrainian Kyiv, and later went on to subjugate the Ukrainian Church fully to Moscow, erasing it of its own particularities. But that is wholly another story.

I’ll get back to you on the IC, Marduk. Gotta run. Andrew
 
mardukm said:
Do Ukrainian Catholics see the IC as a Latinization, or a legitimate part of its own local Tradition?

Blessings,
Marduk
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Brother Marduk, Ukrainian Catholics do not see the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception as a latinization. (What are seen as latinizations have more to do with liturgical reforms, mandatory priestly celibacy, exposition of the Eucharist in the monstrance, etc., not Church Dogma).

As historian of Ukraine Orest Subtelny put it, the Union of Brest in 1596 which basically established the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church stipulated that: “In return for the guarantee that the traditional Orthodox liturgy and rites, as well as such practices as the right of priests to marry, would be respected, they [Ukrainian Catholics] accepted the supreme authority of the pope in all matters of faith and dogma.” IC is dogma. To my knowledge, there has never been a problem with this dogma. We have prayers to the Immaculate Conception (in Ukrainian “Neporochna Zachata”) and have churches named after the IC gov.mb.ca/chc/hrb/prov/p023.html.

The Ukrainian Catholic Society raising funds for the construction of a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral in Ukraine’s capital Kyiv is called the Immaculate Conception Society kyivsobor.ugcc.org.ua/bricks/show.php?id=UB-003263.

There is a Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Western Ukraine’s second largest city Ternopil.

One martyred Ukrainian Catholic priest beatified by HH JP2 was actually arrested by the Soviet authorities while giving a sermon on the Immaculate Conception. Here is his bio which I took from the UGCC’s website on the Church’s martyrs:

“Blessed Priest and Martyr Zynoviy Kovalyk was born on August 18, 1903, in the village of Ivachev, near Ternopil’. He entered the order of the Redemptorist Fathers, where on August 28, 1926, he took monastic vows. He studied philosophy and theology in Belgium. After returning, on September 4, 1932, he was ordained a priest. He served in Volyn’. He was arrested in the church on December 20, 1940, during a sermon in honor of the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God. In 1941 he was crucified on the wall of a prison corridor on Zamarstynivs’ka Street (Bryhidky)”

I recall that grisly end to that dear priest’s life from as a student but only now realized he was arrested by the Soviets while giving a sermon on the Immaculate Conception.

Hope this helps. God Bless, Andrew
 
Dear brother Andrew,

Thank you for the explanation. Yes, it helped. Though my question regarding the IC was not in regards to it being accepted by a Ukranian Catholic as a dogma of the Catholic Faith, but rather as an expression of your own theological Tradition in the Ukraine. I mean, from what you’ve heard and read, is the locus of belief in the IC the proclamation of the dogma, or is it located much earlier in the Ukranian Tradition?

You mentioned the Immaculate Conception Society. Does it trace its roots or have any connection at all to the Brotherhood of the IC of which Dmitry Rostov was a part?

Here is a website from a Ukrainian Orthodox mentioning Dmitry Rostov and his devotion to the IC: ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/articles/catholic/holymother.htm

Have you heard of the author Alexander Roman? What do you think of him? He doesn’t sound like the typical EO.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother Andrew,

Thank you for the explanation. Yes, it helped. Though my question regarding the IC was not in regards to it being accepted by a Ukranian Catholic as a dogma of the Catholic Faith, but rather as an expression of your own theological Tradition in the Ukraine. I mean, from what you’ve heard and read, is the locus of belief in the IC the proclamation of the dogma, or is it located much earlier in the Ukranian Tradition?
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Yes to the latter, the locus of belief in Mary Immaculate predates the Papal Dogma proclamation no doubt. ( I dare not venture into original sin just yet). From the Encyclopedia of Ukraine:

“…dogmatic titles were applied to her throughout the early church period, including the Most Holy Virgin, the Ever-Virgin, the Protectoress, the Immaculate, the Pneumatophora and Triadophora [personal note: I believe Mary was called in Ukraine *Prechysta Diva Maria or Blessed/Immaculate Virgin Mary even before the Papal Dogma as She still is now].
In the Eastern Church her role as the mother of God has always been the main focus…and was promoted by St. John Chrysostom’s theology which was revived and popularized in Ukraine in the 17th century by Metropolitan P. Mohyla. The liturgical veneration of Mary is an older tradition in the East than the West, and is seen in various prayers, canons, and supplications”

Accounts of miracles associated with Mary abound in Ukrainian history from early chronicles attributing the defeat of the nomad Kumans to Mary’s intervention to miraculous icons such as at Pochaiv and Zarvanytsia.

I’ll give you an example of Ukrainian uniqueness with respect to the Mother of God. Both Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox celebrate the important holy day of Mary the Protectoress (Pokrova) in October and many, many Ukrainian churches are called St. Pokrova. The Pokrova holy day is almost like a national celebration and it is NOT celebrated in the Byzantine Greek Church which perhaps shows one point of difference with Constantinople and Ukrainian uniqueness and expresses as you aver the theological tradition in Ukraine.

Moreover, Marian societies centered on the veneration of Mary have been particularly popular in Ukrainian history beginning with their approbation by Pope Paul V in response to a request by the Ukrainian Metropolitan Rutsky in 1615. They were promoted by the Basilian order of priests and nuns.

It was this historical veneration of the Mother of God in Ukraine I believe which makes the dogma of IC to many Ukrainians to be simply restating the obvious.

Again, I am not a theologian but just a guy who has never taken one religion course in my entire life, high-school or University.

(continued below)
 
mardukm said:
You mentioned the Immaculate Conception Society. Does it trace its roots or have any connection at all to the Brotherhood of the IC of which Dmitry Rostov was a part?
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I don’t believe so as the disconnect both chronological and historical is too great (Soviet occupation). As I mentioned earlier Dmitry Rostov, though Ukrainian, is not a saint in the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

(con’t)
 
mardukm said:
Here is a website from a Ukrainian Orthodox mentioning Dmitry Rostov and his devotion to the IC: ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/articles/catholic/holymother.htm

Have you heard of the author Alexander Roman? What do you think of him? He doesn’t sound like the typical EO.

Blessings,
Marduk
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LOL.😃 That above website you just linked to is run by Father Kutash who taught a great deal of my Ukrainian Orthodox friends in Montreal. He was always highly regarded by the Ukrainian Orthodox and I attended one of his lectures in Toronto. Every Ukr. Orthodox from Montreal loved him and he runs the site you linked to. Alexander Roman does not ring a bell though. I’ll have to check out his website and I thank you for linking it because I forgot about him. Thanks brother Marduk!🙂

p.s Alexander Roman doesn’t sound typical EO because I think on the website it states he is a Ukrainian Catholic like me. I’ll have to read up on those links.
 
mardukm said:
Here is a website from a Ukrainian Orthodox mentioning Dmitry Rostov and his devotion to the IC: ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/articles/catholic/holymother.htm

Have you heard of the author Alexander Roman? What do you think of him? He doesn’t sound like the typical EO.

Blessings,
Marduk
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I’ve checked the site out Brother Marduk and, kind of knowing some involved there, though indirectly, I will try to phrase this carefully.

I think I know what’s going on. Father Kutash is a brilliant man and Ukrainian Orthodox and since the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Hierarchy in the diaspora (outside Ukraine while Ukraine was still enslaved in the Soviet Union) agreed with the Ecumenical Patriarch back in 1990 for canonical recognition, one of the requirements of the agreement being that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here is in communion only with that Orthodox Church in Ukraine which is subject to the Patriarch of Moscow. Among many religious and nationally conscious Ukrainian Orthodox faithful, this step was seen as a bad move as the MP (Moscow Patriarch) is regarded as being the head of a Ceasaropapist Church in the ROC (Russian Orthodox Church) which is seen as a political instrument to Russify Ukraine and make it more Putin-friendly. Father Kutash cannot thus probably publicly condemn Moscow Patriarch Kirill’s actions as he is in communion with his church. Ukraine’s democratic President belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) (non-canonical). Whenever, priests or bishops of the growing Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv) come to North America they are actually welcomed by our Ukrainian Orthodox priests though they are forbidden to concelebrate liturgies because of the original canonical agreement. In any event the Moscow Patriarchate is losing faithful through Ukraine as more Ukrainians join the Kyiv Patriarchate and Moscow fears that it may lose the most populous (equal with Russia) Orthodox nation on earth in Ukraine.

Moreover, the articles on that site which list openly the problems with the Muscovite Church are authored by the aforesaid Mr. Roman. Do you see what I’m getting at? Also, any canonizations done by the noncanonical at this time Kyivan Patriarchate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church are authored by same individual.

This is a very touchy subject for Ukrainians. Things are changing there and the EP does not like what he hears from the MP’s Kirill lately, and the Ecumenical Patriarch is scheduled to meet with the head of the noncanonical Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church soon as it seems the EP is not happy entirely with the Russian Church’s position in Ukraine. Ukraine’s Orthodox historically were directly under Constantinople never Moscow, until Moscow began annexing militarily parts of Ukraine.

In any event, with respect to this particular topic I think I’ve said enough and want to be careful now. We are getting into internal Church discipline.
 
Thanks for that information, brother. Sensitive info, indeed.

I did some looking around myself and found the following article from the site:
ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/articles/catholic/communionWithRome.htm

Dr. Roman constantly refers to the EC’s in the third person, and especially telling is the end of the article. So I don’t think he is Ukrainian Catholic, but Ukrainian Orthodox.

Thank you so much for the wonderful discussion. You are a wealth of info on your Church.

Abundant blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Thanks for the info. What do you make of his statement at the end of the article I linked to - that the Ukranian Orthodox bishop was his bishop?

Humbly,
Marduk
 
Quirky sense of humor? The site declares him as Ukrainian Catholic and I have always known him to be, unless he recently converted.
 
Marduk

thank you for this thread, i learned a lot about the immaculate conception, based on my personally research, i believe that most EO today had a wrong understanding of the patristric teachings regarding IC and Original Sin, and they are firm on this position because we are not in union to them, creating a Anti- Latin system.

thanks
marlo
mardukm said:
Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Thanks for the info. What do you make of his statement at the end of the article I linked to - that the Ukranian Orthodox bishop was his bishop?

Humbly,
Marduk
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[St.] Dimitry of Rostov studied theology in Rome (a common practice for Ukrainians at the time) and practiced as a Catholic while in Rome (also a common practice at the time for Eastern Orthodox in Rome - ordinary people just ignored the fact of schism, which I would take to mean that they personally can’t be said to be guilty of schism). He’s generally regarded as having been more heavily influenced by Roman Catholic theology than many other Ukrainians who also studied in Italy - he liked to systematize theology, for example (but then again, so did Fr. Pomozansky, who can’t be accused of having been Latinized).
 
As far as I am aware, the only post-schismatic Orthodox saint to be formally canonized by the Pope was St. Sergius of Radonezh, possibly along with a few of his monks. I believe that others were simply kept on the calendar without having been canonized, however.
 
KyivAndrew said:
No, he is not a saint in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. He was canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church. The internal arguments of the Orthodox Church at the time of Dmitry are quite interesting because Russia did not have as much learned religious as Ukraine did with the Kyivan Mohyla Academy; hence, Russians depended at this time on theological learning to a great extent from Ukrainian religious such as Feofan Prokopovych, and many others. The irony of course was that Moscow took this learning from East Slavics’ “Jerusalem” Ukrainian Kyiv, and later went on to subjugate the Ukrainian Church fully to Moscow, erasing it of its own particularities. But that is wholly another story.

I’ll get back to you on the IC, Marduk. Gotta run. Andrew
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That a different version of history. The Kievan Rus capital was Kiev and at the time of the Baptism of the Rus became the spiritual capital of the Rus. The Rus people are now split in three nations, but still look to Kiev and the Kiev Pechersk Lavra as a main Orthodox center of learning. The most of the English language liturgical text used at my home church are translations for Kiev Pechersk Lavra texts of the services. Orthodox Rus religious are a main support of the Eastern Slav Orthodox. The occupation by the Grand Duchy of Luthuania and Kingdom of Poland left its mark of the western Rus land and its people. Just as the Tartar did on the eastern Rus land people. Those east where not subjected to Roman pressure and did not get Roman particularities mixed in. However that is for another thread.
 
That a different version of history. The Kievan Rus capital was Kiev and at the time of the Baptism of the Rus became the spiritual capital of the Rus. The Rus people are now split in three nations, but still look to Kiev and the Kiev Pechersk Lavra as a main Orthodox center of learning. The most of the English language liturgical text used at my home church are translations for Kiev Pechersk Lavra texts of the services. Orthodox Rus religious are a main support of the Eastern Slav Orthodox. The occupation by the Grand Duchy of Luthuania and Kingdom of Poland left its mark of the western Rus land and its people. Just as the Tartar did on the eastern Rus land people. Those east where not subjected to Roman pressure and did not get Roman particularities mixed in. However that is for another thread.
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I believe yours is the “different version of history”. The Rus’ people are split into far more than three nations. Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Moldova and Lithuania just to get us started, and that does not even cover the diaspora.

“Great Russia” as a Muscovite political entity did not exist until Peter I. I would greatly disagree that the Muscovite Church looks primarily to the Pecherska Lavra as a main center of learning as you say; Trinity-St. Sergius at Sergeiv Posad has been a far more influential center for the Muscovite Church along with the St. Petersburg Theological Academy (formerly the Leningrad Theological Academy). These have also produced ample printed materials. The printing capability of the Pecherska Lavra was largely appropriated by the Muscovite Church in the 19th century and has been used since then primarily for its purposes. Pochaiv actually prints as much if not more material for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate as does the Pecherska Lavra.

It is true, however, that the effect of the former prominance of the Pecherska Lavra on the entire Church of Rus’ can still be definitely felt and many of the service book versions printed there (especially in the time of St. Peter Mohyla) are very formative for the Kyivan Church.
 
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