Do aborted babies go to Heaven?

[Sir_Knight]

If unbaptized babies (which would included those that died in the womb either due to abortion or miscarriage or whatever) do not go to hell, then why the great urgency to baptize babies in danger of death. In case of emergency, the Church allows anyone to baptize. Why? If they do not go to hell, why the urgency?

Whether they go to hell, or limbo or perhaps limbo is the first circle of hell where there is no actual suffering or whatever, logic would seem to indicate that there will be something different between one that was baptized and one that wasn’t. Otherwise, again, what is the reason for the urgency?

 

[mattwcu]

If salvation is possible for non-Christians and protestants as per our catechism, then it just seems painfully obvious from common sense that a loving God would save these children.

For Protestants its possible. But its not the norm. If you look at the Tradition of the Church it is pretty plain that in normal circumstances, you have to be Catholic.

Although I’m not sure where it says that Non-Christians (who know about the Church, etc.) can be saved. Can anyone find a place in the Catechism where it says they are? … Where it actually says you can be saved by blooming where you are planted rather than accepting Christ and his Church?

Regardless, I think God does save these unborn Children from the torments of Hell, regardless of if they are in Heaven. If they are in a state of eternal happiness in limbo and suffer no pain whatsoever I certainly think that is an amazing act of mercy considering how great was the rift caused by Original Sin.

Original Sin is real and has real consequences. That is basic Catholic teaching. We can’t allow sentimentalism to come before the Truths of the Faith.

 

[Palm_Tree]

For Protestants its possible. But its not the norm. If you look at the Tradition of the Church it is pretty plain that in normal circumstances, you have to be Catholic.

Although I’m not sure where it says that Non-Christians (who know about the Church, etc.) can be saved. Can anyone find a place in the Catechism where it says they are? … Where it actually says you can be saved by blooming where you are planted rather than accepting Christ and his Church?

Yes, I posted it in the 3rd post of this thread:

***CCC 1260 **-- "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 **Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. **

**CCC 1261 **-- As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. *

gurneyhalleck1 does bring up a good point. Why is it that “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved,” except for children who died without Baptism?

 

[mattwcu]

Thanks for reposting that!

Being ignorant of something can either be your fault or not. If it isn’t your fault then ok. But if it is…

Its difficult in today’s society to say that most protestants or non-Christians are really ignorant of the Church and that it is not their fault. In Saudi Arabia where they don’t allow even a Bible…maybe?

This issue of ignorance has been used in these times to mean EVERYONE and ANYONE who isn’t Catholic. It is an excuse for Universal Salvation. It is also an argument for false-syncretism, in saying that all religions are equal. Or, that all you have to do is your best and you get to heaven.

Are unborn babies invincibly ignorant? Sure they are. But invincible ignorance is not a dogmatic teaching of the Faith. It is being taught as one, and we may believe it, but one thing that is not up for grabs is Original Sin.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I absolutely cannot imagine the Christ of the New Testament who I have come to know, love, worship, and adore, in His infinite kindness and love for children would allow such a callous act as sending an aborted baby to hell, to happen. It’s insane. If salvation is possible for non-Christians and protestants as per our catechism, then it just seems painfully obvious from common sense that a loving God would save these children. I was shocked at the amount of people on that poll that actually think Christ, who died for our sins so lovingly, would permit these innocents to perish do to the evil of their parents…if that’s the case then God help us all…

Me too, I was surprised to even see the question.

 

[Luke_K]

The only option I can accept is that the soul of an unborn baby would be given the choice somehow to accept God or not.

Considering how many embryos die from defects in implantation or health, even in situations where the faithful couple did not know they were pregnant and thus could not baptize the baby, if hell was the destination for those souls, I would seriously consider leaving the faith.

Would God really allow some babies to survive birth and be baptized, but make some others die naturally in the womb and thus be denied being with Him forever?!

If they automatically went to heaven without any act of free will, then, well, shouldn’t God be killing us all in the womb to get to Him faster?

 

[MarianneD]

Your poll questions do not offer a choice that is “I believe the teaching of the Church with regard to those who die without baptism”. That is my answer.

Thou shalt not murder. Period, amen.

As someone who just a month ago was devastated by natural miscarriage, I am hurt by this statement. I was just 5 weeks pregnant and was so excited to become a mom for the first time. Then the bleeding started.

I dare you to call me a murderer.

 

[budgie2]

As someone who just a month ago was devastated by natural miscarriage, I am hurt by this statement. I was just 5 weeks pregnant and was so excited to become a mom for the first time. Then the bleeding started.

I dare you to call me a murderer.

If you’ve had a miscarriage that’s God’s decision not your decision. I had a miscarriage a couple of years ago first time round and it’s more common for your first or so they say but some people have more. It was really hard for about 3 months and then I started to feel better about 6 months afterwards but it depends on the individual. Now I’ve got a baby called Joseph who is 8 months. The miscarriage made me pro-life so there were positives and my dad also gave me an angel to carry in my pocket to remind me of my baby but that’s my personal remembrance.

 

[jediliz]

Again as I think I posted before: God would not condemn unborn babies to a place where they are separately from him forever, whether they died in a miscarriage, abortion (died by mom or dad’s choice, not their own) or were stillborn.

There is baptism of DESIRE. I would think perhaps these babies that die prematurely would receive that.

Here’s a question for you: The children who were massacred in Bethlehem by Herod’s soldiers…they were the Holy Innocents…are they in Heaven? I say YES.

 

[pnewton]

The only true answer is " I do not know" After all, this is one area where we know that we do not know.

I understand the attraction to Limbo. After all, it seems to be born out of a logical syllogism that is impervious to quesiton, based on Catholic teaching. However, we must also take the humble view that we do not know everything. In fact, we know very little, especially about God. As one poster said, if we did know this answer our head would explode.

This is my speculation, and that is all it is. First I think based on the mercy of God that either all go to heaven, or some go to heaven. It is possible that the soul is granted enough wisdom and understanding to either accept or reject God. Then, like all the rest of humanity, some go go Heaven, some to Hell.

It is also possible that there is no such will allowed and in these souls and they all go to heaven. While that is good, there is also a greater good that would be denied them. Namely, they could never know redemption and understand the Love of God freely chosen. As I heard one professor put it, in heaven we will each have all of the blessedness we can stand, but some of us can stand more than others.

 

[pnewton]

I asked my four year old son what he thought and he said the babies go to heaven. I guess his view is as good as any. He does not know much theology, but he is also not so tainted by sin. Maybe we should have a toddler survey.

 

[distracted]

Your poll questions do not offer a choice that is “I believe the teaching of the Church with regard to those who die without baptism”. That is my answer.

Thou shalt not murder. Period, amen.

right… even if aborted babies all went to heaven, that would not make it right for us to send them there, especially by mutilating them - taking away their life on this Earth… depriving them of the life God intended them to have… a life on Earth, not Limbo or wherever…

who do we think we are - God??

we can’t create sperm & egg but just because we can unite them in a lab dish, we think we are God… and just because we can murder them…

beam me up, JEsus…

 

[distracted]

While that is good, there is also a greater good that would be denied them. Namely, they could never know redemption and understand the Love of God freely chosen.

i feel strongly that it is always better to NOT know such things … meaning it is better to never know redemption if it means never knowing sin…

an unborn child does not know sin… Whether God gives the child a chance to some day know sin and therefore be required to make a choice… is, as you say, beyond us… Only God knows… I think we take on these kinds of questions sometimes to our own … hurt or at least its a waste of time… because only God knows this kind of thing…

all i know is that sin is so awful that it is best not to ever know anything about it. The unborn have the stain of original sin on thier souls but that is not their fault… I fail to see why they should be punished for a sin that is not their s…

Baptism washes away the original (and other) sins of those who have to live in this world… the unborn who are aborted don’t go on living in this world, obviously… so it seems you could say they don’t need baptism???

i don’t know… just thinking out loud…

 

[mattwcu]

i feel strongly that it is always better to NOT know such things … meaning it is better to never know redemption if it means never knowing sin…

…

all i know is that sin is so awful that it is best not to ever know anything about it. The unborn have the stain of original sin on thier souls but that is not their fault… I fail to see why they should be punished for a sin that is not their s…

…

Baptism washes away the original (and other) sins of those who have to live in this world… the unborn who are aborted don’t go on living in this world, obviously… so it seems you could say they don’t need baptism???

We have to know about sin in order to avoid it.

The Church is pretty clear that all need baptism. In fact, that Baptism is a necessity is a dogma of the faith. Original Sin is for everyone, not just the born. * “In sin did my mother conceive me…”*

If you fail to see why people are punished for their part in Original Sin I suggest you pray about it. Because we can think it is unfair all we want but that is how God decided to do things. Have you spoken to a good orthodox priest about Original Sin?

Original Sin has consequences, one of them being we cannot get to heaven without being justified which happens through Sacramental Baptism or the so-called “Baptism of Blood” or “Baptism of Desire” which are hard to do and most likely very rare.

We need to be careful we don’t fall into sentimentalism when making decisions about our view of the Faith.

 

[pnewton]

i feel strongly that it is always better to NOT know such things … meaning it is better to never know redemption if it means never knowing sin…
…

I understand what you are saying. I keep thinking of the line from the Exaltet:

“O happy fault that gained for us so great a Redeemer”

There is a joy we can know that even the angels may not know. I am not saying that sin is “worth it.” However, perhaps we may discover in this irony the purpose of free will

 

[didymus]

Besides aborted babies, something like 1/3 of all conceptions never take, i.e., they “miscarry” without the woman ever knowing she is pregnant.

I checked “I have no idea” because we don’t know. But I trust that God would not create so many souls only to send them to Hell.

 

[distracted]

We have to know about sin in order to avoid it.

i didn’t expalin waht i meant. I know we need to know about sin. And we know about it because of our consciences - and the Church tells us (for example, who would always know the moral in’s and out’s of something like [certain] stem cell research projects… unless we had the Church to guide us). What i meant was that i would rather Adam and E not have sinned in the 1st place… and that there was no sin in the world…

The Church is pretty clear that all need baptism. In fact, that Baptism is a necessity is a dogma of the faith. Original Sin is for everyone, not just the born. * “In sin did my mother conceive me…”*

The Church doesn’t require that i “check my brain at its doors”… The Holy spirit speaks to a person even when not in the Church… or when someone doesn’t know the Church’s position, etc… In other words, my thought that it would be unfair for God to throw un-baptized souls into Hell is not necessarily mis-guided or whatever. I maintain that this is NOT fair and i am 99% sure God thinks so also. Yes, baptism is the normal means for washing away sin but God in Heaven knows that not everyone will be able to obtain sacramental baptism. to say God would send someone to Hell because he couldn’t get baptized through no fault of his own is absurd and i am sure the Church doesn’t teach this.

Original Sin has consequences, one of them being we cannot get to heaven without being justified which happens through Sacramental Baptism or the so-called “Baptism of Blood” or “Baptism of Desire” which are hard to do and most likely very rare.

.

If you were baptized as an infant, you had no control over being baptized. If your parents hadn’t done it for you, you may still be un-baptized at the age of 30 or 40 … It is ridiculous to think that God doesn’t KNOW about your not being baptized… Sure, at 40 you have a say in the matter… but while living at home w/ parents you don’t… Are you saying God doesn’t work with such people / situations???

 

[mattwcu]

i didn’t expalin waht i meant. I know we need to know about sin. And we know about it because of our consciences - and the Church tells us (for example, who would always know the moral in’s and out’s of something like [certain] stem cell research projects… unless we had the Church to guide us). What i meant was that i would rather Adam and E not have sinned in the 1st place… and that there was no sin in the world…

Ah, yes. I see what you are saying. I think we’d all prefer Adam and Eve had not sinned!

The Church doesn’t require that i “check my brain at its doors”…

This is a liberal calling card. This is what people say when they believe it is ok to disagree with the Church on Abortion or Contraceptives. I doubt you are alluding to that. What do you mean by this exactly?

The Holy spirit speaks to a person even when not in the Church… or when someone doesn’t know the Church’s position, etc… In other words, my thought that it would be unfair for God to throw un-baptized souls into Hell is not necessarily mis-guided or whatever.

The Catechism says that God gives every man the necessary grace to be saved (paraphrasing!). But not everyone accepts. Not only that, the Church has explained what that means is: Baptism or the Desire thereof.(Trent) Once you are Sacramentally baptized, you must remain in a state of grace. And the Baptism of Desire or Blood does not leave an indelible mark on the soul so you have to die in a state of perfect charity…its kinda tough…but its possible.

I maintain that this is NOT fair and i am 99% sure God thinks so also. Yes, baptism is the normal means for washing away sin but God in Heaven knows that not everyone will be able to obtain sacramental baptism. to say God would send someone to Hell because he couldn’t get baptized through no fault of his own is absurd and i am sure the Church doesn’t teach this.

I’d be careful when you say you maintain it is not fair. We’re all sinners in need of salvation. All of us. We all deserve hellfire and it is Christ who has redeemed us and it is Christ we need to not only accept but in whose love we need to abide. Read 1, 2, 3, John. God does know not everyone will have the normal opportunity for Baptism. But in most ordinary cases people do. Remember the Catholic Church has a BILLION members in it. That isn’t exactly an exclusive club.

God is not cruel, but he is just and merciful. Let me ask you, do you agree with the Church’s position that one unconfessed mortal sin at death will put you in Hell?

If you were baptized as an infant, you had no control over being baptized. If your parents hadn’t done it for you, you may still be un-baptized at the age of 30 or 40 … It is ridiculous to think that God doesn’t KNOW about your not being baptized… Sure, at 40 you have a say in the matter… but while living at home w/ parents you don’t… Are you saying God doesn’t work with such people / situations???

I was born into a Protestant household but by the Grace of God I converted to the Catholic Church as an adult. I responded to his Grace. So obviously God does work with such people.

 

[distracted]

…
I’d be careful when you say you maintain it is not fair. We’re all sinners in need of salvation. All of us. We all deserve hellfire

i don’t believe this. We are NOT all deserving of Hell fire… certainly NOT unborn children who have never sinned. so they have what could be described as having a disease because of orig sin… but again, that is NOT their fault and God does not hold us acocuntable for something that is not our own fault… What he holds us accourntable for is seeing our sin and doing nothing about it… unborn babies are totally un(in?)cognizant of this kind of thing. they are innocent. they do NOT go to Hell when they die inside their mother’s womb… They probably go to something like Limbo… but they do not go to Hell… (although i submit to what the Church says, i’m convinced of this.) god is bigger than this… god is love (1 Jn 4:8)

God is not cruel, but he is just and merciful. Let me ask you, do you agree with the Church’s position that one unconfessed mortal sin at death will put you in Hell?

yes… unless the person has the intent to confess - sacramentally - but is somehow unable to. If he confesses directly to God, then no…

I was born into a Protestant household but by the Grace of God I converted to the Catholic Church as an adult. I responded to his Grace. So obviously God does work with such people.

Praise God…

nice to hear a success story…

i wish someone here would post soemthing from the catechism… I guess i could do that if i could find the right section… on the i-net… I should carry the catechism w/ me at all times…

maybe i will from now on…

 

[mattwcu]

i don’t believe this. We are NOT all deserving of Hell fire… certainly NOT unborn children who have never sinned. so they have what could be described as having a disease because of orig sin… but again, that is NOT their fault and God does not hold us acocuntable for something that is not our own fault… What he holds us accourntable for is seeing our sin and doing nothing about it… unborn babies are totally un(in?)cognizant of this kind of thing. they are innocent. they do NOT go to Hell when they die inside their mother’s womb… They probably go to something like Limbo… but they do not go to Hell… (although i submit to what the Church says, i’m convinced of this.) god is bigger than this… god is love (1 Jn 4:8)

I agree with you on the unborn (I guess even newborn for that matter) and limbo. I don’t believe God punishes them with hellfire. Did you think I did? If you look at my previous posts in this thread you’ll see I am one of the sole limbo advocates. God is merciful and just, so while mankind without Baptism does not receive the beatific vision, he gives them a state of eternal happiness.

Now as to the living, knowledgeable, adults:

From Romans 3:1-13

1What advantage then hath the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2Much every way. First indeed, because the words of God were committed to them.
3For what if some of them have not believed? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid.
4But God is true; and every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and mayest overcome when thou art judged.
**5But if our injustice commend the justice of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust, who executeth wrath? **
6(I speak according to man.) God forbid: otherwise how shall God judge this world?
7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie, unto his glory, why am I also yet judged as a sinner?
8And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just.

9What then? Do we excel them? No, not so. For we have charged both Jews, and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
**10As it is written: There is not any man just**.
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
**12All have turned out of the way**; they are become unprofitable together

BTW, thanks for the convert compliments.