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Montalban
Guest
Matthew 7:21
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runandsew
Guest
If you are speaking of John 10:16
And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring. And they shall hear my voice: And there shall be one fold and one shepherd
He is speaking here of the Gentiles.
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Montalban
Guest
Some people believe all will go to heaven, and be saved. This is known as Apokatastasis (sometimes rendered as
Apocatastasis). It’s supposed to be based on
1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
It is, in the general use of the term, considered a heresy.
Apocatastasis). It’s supposed to be based on
1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
It is, in the general use of the term, considered a heresy.
I
inJESUS
Guest
thank you
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simbagizmo
Guest
Yes, but this is my point that not all that follow a supposed teacher of Christ are Christians. There are false teachers out there that we are to wary of. These false teachers lead their followers away from Jesus. These followers do not know it and think they are doing what’s right. They are not are and are shocked when Jesus says so. Please read the verse in its context
Jesus here is saying be on guard against those who teach false doctrine, a false Gospel. The ones that follow this false teachings are not Christians. They are following the teachings of some man, not Christ’s. The man’s teaching may sound correct, hence the reference in sheeps clothing, but his teaching is false. And the one’s that follow are trying in vain to reach heaven, because they have not put their faith in Jesus Christ. Please read
Again these passages are not stating that some Christians will be kicked out of heaven, it is stating that some think they are Christians, but are following the wrong path and are assured of not going to heaven. This is why, through out the New Testament, there are so many passages tell us to test ourselves and other’s teaching to make sure we do not wander away from Christ. In verse Luke 17:3 above, Jesus tells us to be on guard of our brothers. Brothers is not just the lay people that attend church, but it is also pators, priest, elders, bishops, and popes. Back in Jesus’s time, it is even the apostles as shown when Peter “stood condemned”, falling away from the Gospel message and had to be confronted by Paul.
But let me ask you a question I have put to a couple of others. If your church teaches that no one is assured salvation, than what is the Gospel message taught in your church? Why do you follow the churches teachings? Like I said to the others I have put this question to, I am not looking to start an argument, but I just could not phantom following a religion that does not teach the assurance as Jesus teaches.
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Montalban
Guest
No need to read it, as I don’t disagree with you that all aren’t necessarily Christian, but you did ask this question…
One can ‘believe’ without being a true Christian
“For “the devils also believe and tremble,” as the Scripture tells us.”
Augustine - Homily X quoted at ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-07/npnf1-07-141.htm#P4618_2490251
There are those that followed Hong Xiuquan and ‘believed’ in Christ (Hong Xiuquan claimed to be Jesus’ little brother). These people were no ‘Christian’ as I would think.
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simbagizmo
Guest
So at least we do agree. The question put forth, and the comments stated here, was that not all Christians are assured salvation. My point is that only Christians are assured salvation. I agree that just “believing” does not make a Christian as you appropriately pointed out. Christians are ones that are “little Christs” or “Christ like”. They put Jesus Christ as a model in their lives, and are doers of his teachings as stated in James
My belief, based on Scripture and proven true by what I see, is that the majority of “church goers” are not Christians. They do “dead works” as stated by Paul. They go to church because they have to, or because of tradition, or some other reason then out of gratitude and love for Jesus Christ. I do not know about the church you attend, but in most of the churches I attended, half of the people leave before the service is complete or I hear complaints about how long the service was, because it was 10 minutes over. 2 Corinthians 13:5 and Matthew 15:8-9 screams at me for these people, and I wonder why these people even bother to attend.
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Montalban
Guest
Up to that point
Which is where I agree up to.
Romans 2 seems to show that this is not true.
But ultimately, I think that as an Orthodox Christian it is wrong to speculate on whom God will save.
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murtad
Guest
Why do you consider evangelical and Catholic as two different peoples? The late Pope John Paul II and the late Mother Teresa were certainly great models of evangelical Christians as they spread the Gospel to unbelievers.
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Sam88
Guest
Yes, you are quite correct that people apply the name Christian in very different ways. I believe that C.S. Lewis actually wrote about the use of the word Christian in one of his books, but I don’t recall exactly where at the moment. Probably “Mere Christianity”.
Anyway, my practical definition, is that I generally call anyone a Christian if they claim to be one, that is they claim to be a follower of Jesus and to live according to the faith he taught, or if they have been baptised and have not explicitly rejected the faith. This means that there are many nominal Christians (by this definition) who might seldom attend religious services, many who’s theology could be described as heretical, etc.
If one wants a more narrow definition, you could extend this to specify that a Christian is someone who agrees with any interpretation of the apostle’s creed, just to eliminate oddities like someone who imagines that Jesus was a Martian, reincarnation of Buddha, or whatever.
If there is a need to be more specific, there are plenty of adjectives to make more clear what kind of Christian I am referring to, e.g. orthodox (one with theology that is sound & traditional), devout (one who regularly participates in religious activities such as going to church, prayer, scripture reading, etc.), Catholic (in communion with the See of Rome), consecrated, “in a state of grace”, etc.
Using this definition, one might be a Christian at one time and no longer, but I would not say someone is a non-Christian because they are sinning, or because they have not been to a Church in a long time. Rather, I would say they are no longer Christian when they indicate clearly by words or obvious actions (such as publicly adopting a different faith) that they have rejected Christianity.
Using the above definition, I think it is clear that not all such “Christians” will be saved.
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murtad
Guest
This is true since those Greek Orthodox will never go to heaven. Only Catholics shall enter paradise. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, who is the leader of the Eastern Orthodox has a terrible fate awaiting him on the day of judgement, according to the Cathecism of the Catholic Church (CCC) #846.
Outside the Church there is no salvation
It is wrong to call it playing God since the Lord himself told us in both the Bible and the CCC who is going to heaven and who is going to the lake of fire.
Consider this verse:
(Matthew 16:19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
If an Ecumenical Synod or a local Synod canonises a person as a saint, then he will be in paradise automatically bypassing the day of judgement.
The most excellent and blessed Augustine of Hippo is a canonised saint. Thus, this great Latin father is in paradise bypassing the day of judgement. Otherwise, how can we ask him to interceed for us to the Lord?
In the same way both Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II are also in paradise. These people are bypass the day of judgement as they are canonised saints by the Church.
So as you can see, Church has power to send anyone to heaven or hell.
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santaro75
Guest
I follow it because it makes more sense than assured salvation. Assured salvation sounds like a dream come true. But i don’t want to kid myself into thinking that no work is required of me to live and die for christ.
does that answer what you asked?
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milimac
Guest
I think in practice we’re probably pretty close in our thinking and quibbling over minor details, but let me continue a little anyway and see what you think. In my original analogy we’re also not in control of our salvation except perhaps in a secondary sort of way. It doesn’t matter how much we think we’re earning our salvation by clinging to that lifeline and persevering – if the Coast Guard did not arrive on the scene in the first place and does not reel us in, we’re not going to be saved. No one who finally gets reeled in would be so arrogant as to say “whew, I saved me!”
(especially if this Coast Guard analogy were improved and someone died in the process of saving you).
I think your analogy might be a little better if you said that you submitted to the Coast Guard and allowed them to tie a knot that you would not be able to untie (rather than tying the knot yourself). This is also better because Christ comes all the way to us, rather than throwing a lifeline from a distance. Regardless, the question is whether or not I can still reject being saved after that knot has been tied. If as I’m being pulled in I see a sunken chest of gold coins and other people in the water happily collecting them and I decide that I’d rather be released so I can gather up the riches too, will this Coast Guard allow me to reject its sure salvation? (Again I’m pushing this analogy – for one, the real Coast Guard would probably still drag me to safety even if I were kicking and screaming the whole way).
But I don’t think this Coast Guard (Christ) ever takes our free will away. If I’m free to reject salvation at the beginning, why can’t I reject it later? And if I truly don’t have free will to reject salvation later, why do I have free will to reject it at all? Why doesn’t the Coast Guard just save me against my will at the outset, since we’re crazy to reject it? Perhaps you might say that the person who rejects salvation never really accepted it in the first place. It’s not true for this analogy (if the person never saw the glittering gold they would have been saved). I don’t think it works in reality either. Either that, or you’ve shifted the question from “Can you be sure of your salvation?” to “Can you be sure you were sincere enough?” You can’t really know for sure until your sincerity has survived all the tests that it must endure in this lifetime, can you?
Is there any danger in believing that our salvation CANNOT be rejected once it has been accepted? Is there any danger in believing that our salvation CAN be rejected once it has been accepted? It seems to me that the first situation is the one more likely of the two to lead to the sin of presumption and laxity in faith, while the second is the one that is more likely to lead to persevering in hope.
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cathgal
Guest
It is wrong to simply say that Greek Orthodox will never go to heaven and only Catholics enter paradise. There is no such thing as assurance of salvation. We must work it out in ‘fear and trembling’.
But have no fear, for the Catholic Church have channels of grace to make it possible to obtain heaven thru the sacraments.
I think you misunderstood the teaching of the Church.
The Church does not have the power to send anyone to heaven. It is only God who has the power.
What the Church does is to proclaim for certainty who is in heaven.
We know that Augustine and Mother Teresa are in heaven because the Church formerly declare that they are, but JP II hasn’t been declared. Nevertheless, I’ve no doubt that JP II will soon be on the way for beautification.
We don’t know for certainty who’s in heaven 'til the Church says so.
On the day of judgement, everyone will be judged again, yes, even saints, but it wouldn’t change their destiny because the last judgement is a public judgement, reveal for all to know the justice of God.
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simbagizmo
Guest
The difference in the two is this. The Coast Guard will always show up to one who calls. I think we can agree on this. The lifeline will always be sufficient to reel us in. I think we can agree on this. The difference is that, if I am holding onto the rope, I am trusting my strength to get saved. If I tie the rope around me, I offer nothing more in the effort to save myself. I am now in total dependency of the Coast Guard.
I
Salvation is a free gift. We have to receive it though. So it is accurate that I would have to tie the rope around me, thereby allowing Chrst to direct my life. As it was once put to me, “Chirst will never abduct someone into salvation”
This is the difference between Saving Faith and Dead Faith. To follow Jesus until something better comes along is not Saving Faith. This would represent the person holding onto the rope, not having it tied just incase something better comes along. This is a misconception of alot of the Faith Alone crowd I do admit. But Saving Faith, there is no turning back. You are 100% committed to Jesus and no amount of “gold” will draw you away from Him and your salvation. There is a term we use called “Backsliden Christian”. I do not know if you have heard of this before, but basically it is used by the Faith Alone crowd for people that supposedly have placed their faith in Jesus, but are not repentant in their sinful lifes. Based on Scripture, a good tree will never produce bad fruit. To put this scenario in the context of the Sower parable, these would be the seeds that grew and got burned up because its roots were not deep.
I would liken this to Peter in John 6:68
Those with Saving Faith, are like Peter here. “Where else will we go?” There was no turning back in Peter. His decision to follow Christ left no room to quit. In his heart, mind, and soul, there was no other option. That is the essense of Saving Faith. Did Peter have free will to begin to follow Christ? Yes. Once he grew in faith, did he still have the option of walk away from Christ? Not in his perspective, “Where would be go. There is no where else”.
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simbagizmo
Guest
Yes you can be sure you are sincere. You know. God knows. Just as sure as I know that I will be there for my wife and children no matter what, I know that I am with Jesus no matter what. What is on your mind, what do you worry about, how do you see solving your problems? If you are honest with yourself you will know.
If you understand the Gospel message, that salvation is in belief in Jesus Christ is eternal life, then there is no danger in being assured of your salvation.
If there is no assurance, what then is the Good News, Gospel, that Jesus came to teach? Under the Law, you have the uncertainty of violations without sacrafice. Under Grace we have the certainty of salvation due to the sacrafice of Jesus.
Yes. If you believe your salvation can be rejected after it was accepted, you will put yourself back under the Law and out of Grace. Trying to earn your way back to salvation by your own deeds and rejecting the sacrafice of Jesus.
If I understand the RC teaching of the “sin of presumption”, it states that it is a sin to presume one is assured of salvation. That this is basically pride of one to make this assumption. This is not correct. Just look read through the Gospels and New Testament. Jesus tells us over and over again, that belief in Him is eternal life. That peoples Faith has saved them. The thief on the cross is a great example. All he did was repented from his sins, believed that Jesus was the son of God, and put his faith in Him for eternal life. Jesus said he was saved. Would the RC teach that the believing Jesus’s word that the thief was saved, would be a sin on his part? He never said anywhere that your faith has saved you unless you sin again. To the women in Luke 7:50, Jesus states “your faith has saved you”. “Has Saved”, not “may save”. If this women believed Jesus at his word, is this a sin also?
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cazayoux
Guest
Was even Paul *assured *of his entrance to heaven?
His letters in the New Testament are to *established *Christian Churches.
He’s answering questions about how to live their faith.
If just BEING a Christian were enough to guarantee entrance to heaven, his letters would have been much shorter. Along the lines of “don’t worry about it. Y’all are good.”
Okay … maybe he wouldn’t use the word “y’all”.
What did Paul say about ‘persevering until the end’?
Kind of reads as if persistence is required, doesn’t it?
How can you belong to a church that guarantees you something that Paul himself wasn’t assured of (and he was visited by Christ Himself)?
michel
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Damascus
Guest
Do all christians go to heaven?
How about an equally ridicoulous premise:
Do all christians go to hell?
If you believe in Hell someone has to go there or it would not exist.
If you believe in Heaven someone isnt gonna make it or we would not need a heaven would we?
No where is there any basis to think that heaven was a part of the plan from day one. Only after the fall was this premise opened up.
I could be wrong so go for it! Blast me all you want.
How about an equally ridicoulous premise:
Do all christians go to hell?
If you believe in Hell someone has to go there or it would not exist.
If you believe in Heaven someone isnt gonna make it or we would not need a heaven would we?
No where is there any basis to think that heaven was a part of the plan from day one. Only after the fall was this premise opened up.
I could be wrong so go for it! Blast me all you want.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
I do believe you are correct. We were made to live eternally and then the fall happened and the rest as they is history or future. Which ever way you want to look at it.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
I get e-mails daily called God’s daily Promise and I thought this one pertains to what you are saying.
Sunday, November 12
This week’s promise: God will never stop working in our lives
God’s guidance
"I will bless the Lord who guides me; even at night my heart instructs me.
I know the Lord is always with me, I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.
**Psalm 16:7-8 NLT
The steps of the godly are directed by the Lord. He delights in every detail of their lives. Though they stumble, they will not fall, for the Lord holds them by the hand. **Psalm 37:23-24
" Giving thanks that God is near
Giving thanks that God is near
"Sometimes we try to “ride out the storms” in our lives—doing this the best we can. We think, If I can just hang on and be strong, I can get through this. David knew he couldn’t make it on his own. In the past, he had found help in the Lord God. And in this prayer, David again sought the Lord’s protection: “Keep me safe, O God, for I have come to you for refuge” (v. 1). He rejoiced in the guidance and assistance the Lord had given him. Though his enemies were trying to shake and topple him, David stood firm because God was “right beside” him.
In prayer today, acknowledge that God is right beside you—upholding and guiding you. Thank him that he helps you and does not leave you to struggle on your own.
A prayer for today…
Dear Lord, I will not be shaken, for you are right beside me…
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