Do All Dogs Go To Heaven? New Books Seem To Think So

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Catholics do not believe in the tabula rasa theory of the mind - that our brains are created with a “blank slate” so that only what we see and hear in our environment makes us distinguish between good and bad, right from wrong. We are taught that all men are created in God’s image, that God knew everyone in the womb before they were born, and that we would have a “sense” of right and wrong, even if our environment taught us nothing (except utter depravity, such as with a criminal or insane parent or kidnapper).

Read William Golding’s Lord of the Flies for an excellent “example” of how children can develop isolated from adults.

As far as the soul/spirit “dilemma” you keep referring to, it does not matter as to the heart of our discussion.

Call it what you will, believe me when I tell you that Aristotean/Thomist teaching is that a soul is what animates a living thing. When that thing dies, the effect on the soul is determined based on what that thing was: human or not human. Simple as that. Humans are only living things with immortal souls.

If people want to THINK that heaven consists of something MORE than looking at God in the face (and I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why anyone would want to remove himelf from looking at pure, total love in the face - God - to go tell Fido “hello”), then say let them believe that just for solace . . .

It does not change who we are and what will happen. I seriously doubt we get “requests” in heaven . . . heaven is not like a disco where we ask for our favorite songs to be played.
 
perhaps heaven is not like a disco where we ask for our favourite song to be played but it could be like home where we play our own favourite songs and dream our most favourite dreams - of course we forget about Jacob.s ladder between heaven and earth and when the new heavens and earth are one andGod’s will is done in heaven as on earth.The whole story is about Creation/Fall/Redemption/Restoration.If for redemption be substitute restoration then all things will be restored to thei “very good” original status and very good dogs will be on the very good earth - twinc
 
So, a simple request like,“I’m sad, I want to be happy”, will be ignored? Pop in that disco machine, fail?
 
FaithJoy said:
You guys still are using the wrong words to describe “a soul”. A soul is simply “a life” with a body and spirit ( an essence).Soul and spirit aren’t the same thing.

It seems we will disagree completely on this subject. But, let me ask this question to the believers that DON’T think animals can go to heaven. Question is : If animals don’t go automatically by His decision, would He place an animal in heaven by request of one’s owner? If not,tell us why? Considering we will have other objects in heaven, such as essences of food and landscape. Why would an animal be excluded from this beauty craved by humans?
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I do not think that the they are using the wrong words to describe a soul. Your description of a soul is different from the one that has been used in the Church starting with the Church fathers. It looks like you are making up your own definition of soul and expect people to use it the same way.
 
FaithJoy said:
But they have no essences of emotions, no experiences. What would they be in heaven? An infant forever in heaven?If they are simply created in God’s image? Same body appearance, is that all that is required? Their mind can’t be in that equation, not yet. It’s not developed yet.

Understand, I’m not disagreeing with you that they won’t be in heaven. I’m just getting you to think about that in relation to all we are talking about in this thread.
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I think that you are confused about the meaning of “being created in God’s image”. God’s image is not physical appearance. At creation man was created in the Father’s image, and so it cannot be physical appearance because the Father does not have human nature.
 
pnewton said:
If you think this proves that animals can not go to heaven, I fear you have proved too much. The same proof would exclude infants who can not show faith.
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Infants have been created with free will and have the potential of living a live faith. Animals do not have free will and that potential.

That is one of the reasons why we baptize infants and not animals. We know that the graces of God will affect the infants.
 
Cristiano said:
Infants have been created with free will and have the potential of living a live faith. Animals do not have free will and that potential.

That is one of the reasons why we baptize infants and not animals. We know that the graces of God will affect the infants.
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I totally understand that. I am only saying is there is a logical disconnect to find Scriptures which show how adult humans go to Heaven and use this as a proof that this is the only way for anyone to go to Heaven. We have the Church teaching that infants too can go to Heaven. None of these facts reflect pro or con on animals. The are simply unrelated to the question for the very reasons you give.
 
Cristiano said:
Infants have been created with free will and have the potential of living a live faith. Animals do not have free will and that potential.

That is one of the reasons why we baptize infants and not animals. We know that the graces of God will affect the infants.
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just a minute, before laying down the premises as if already proved,prove first that infants have freewill and will have freewill - at the very start they did not choose to be born on that particular day,in that particular place,country,to those particular parents,black or white,male or female,sickly or deformed or healthy etc - where is the freewill and later on how can a will be free if it is not but warped as a result of The Fall - twinc
 
I read Distracted’s comment with interest.

Perhaps communion should only be given to animals, as humans may be in the state of mortal sin, but animals cannot sin.
 
Cristiano said:
I do not think that the they are using the wrong words to describe a soul. Your description of a soul is different from the one that has been used in the Church starting with the Church fathers. It looks like you are making up your own definition of soul and expect people to use it the same way.
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I don’t think I am. I’m just simplifying it a little too much I think. There two main common thoughts: 1. trinity: which there are tree distinct parts of man which is body,soul,and spirit.
2. duality: body and spirit/ spiritual soul ---->which is the Catholic belief.
I also believe in duality which is body and spirit. But , I simplify it by making it a sum of all parts. Body + spirit/spiritual soul = soul. Catholic teaching usually uses spiritual soul in place of spirit where I use simply spirit.
I think I’m consistent.
 
twinc said:
just a minute, before laying down the premises as if already proved,prove first that infants have freewill and will have freewill - at the very start they did not choose to be born on that particular day,in that particular place,country,to those particular parents,black or white,male or female,sickly or deformed or healthy etc - where is the freewill and later on how can a will be free if it is not but warped as a result of The Fall - twinc
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I am not sure that I understand what you are trying to say. Are you implying that humans do not have free will?
 
twinc said: " they did not choose to be born on that particular day,in that particular place,country,to those particular parents,black or white,male or female,sickly or deformed or healthy etc."

Of course they didn’t - the childrens’ parents did. Children cannot spontaneously appear. The conception of children by their parents is the act of free will. The children are the product of the use of the paraents’ free will.

twinc said: “how can a will be free if it is not but warped as a result of The Fall.”

That is very close (if not spot on) to the protestant (at least, some of them) heresy that man is a depraved creature with absolutely no good in him and will never have good in him unless God gives it to him.

Man’s free will was not warped by the fall (that is, taint of original sin) - his supernatural existence was extinguished. Had man never disobeyed God, man would have retained his supernatural existence on Earth forever. But because of his disobedience, God prescribed the punishment: labor pains, toiling to eat and survive, and, finally, the ultimate punishment - death.

“Free will”, for which people are held accountable by God, comes to man at different ages, but usually around 7 years old. It is at that time that the Church teaches that children are presumed to have sufficient knowledge to know the basic “rights and wrongs” that we encounter every day. And it is at that time that children are permitted to take Holy Communion after making Confession.

This is grade school catechesis, twinc.

*The subject of free will is beginning to stray from the original topic, so I wont’ comment anymore on this.

In addition, I don’t know what else (at least in my humble opinion) can be said on the thread’s topic.

Either animals do or do not have immortal souls. If they do not, then they cannot BY DEFINITION go into heaven. If they do, then their souls BY DEFINITION will survive their bodily deaths. But you see, that is the one point that all “pro-in heaven animal” arguments have failed to address: even if animals have immortal souls, where does it say, anywhere in the Bible, that the same animals who were on Earth and then died, are the same ones who will be in Heaven? No one can cite ONE scripture verse that says that all animals will go to heaven upon death - no one. Metaphorically, no one can cite one scripture verse that says that animals are IN heaven.

It has been fun 🙂
 
Salvatore123 said:
twinc said: " they did not choose to be born on that particular day,in that particular place,country,to those particular parents,black or white,male or female,sickly or deformed or healthy etc."

Of course they didn’t - the childrens’ parents did. Children cannot spontaneously appear. The conception of children by their parents is the act of free will. The children are the product of the use of the paraents’ free will.

twinc said: “how can a will be free if it is not but warped as a result of The Fall.”

That is very close (if not spot on) to the protestant (at least, some of them) heresy that man is a depraved creature with absolutely no good in him and will never have good in him unless God gives it to him.

Man’s free will was not warped by the fall (that is, taint of original sin) - his supernatural existence was extinguished. Had man never disobeyed God, man would have retained his supernatural existence on Earth forever. But because of his disobedience, God prescribed the punishment: labor pains, toiling to eat and survive, and, finally, the ultimate punishment - death.

“Free will”, for which people are held accountable by God, comes to man at different ages, but usually around 7 years old. It is at that time that the Church teaches that children are presumed to have sufficient knowledge to know the basic “rights and wrongs” that we encounter every day. And it is at that time that children are permitted to take Holy Communion after making Confession.

This is grade school catechesis, twinc.

*The subject of free will is beginning to stray from the original topic, so I wont’ comment anymore on this.

In addition, I don’t know what else (at least in my humble opinion) can be said on the thread’s topic.

Either animals do or do not have immortal souls. If they do not, then they cannot BY DEFINITION go into heaven. If they do, then their souls BY DEFINITION will survive their bodily deaths. But you see, that is the one point that all “pro-in heaven animal” arguments have failed to address: even if animals have immortal souls, where does it say, anywhere in the Bible, that the same animals who were on Earth and then died, are the same ones who will be in Heaven? No one can cite ONE scripture verse that says that all animals will go to heaven upon death - no one. Metaphorically, no one can cite one scripture verse that says that animals are IN heaven.

It has been fun 🙂
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is that what it is all about death,decay,dementia,deceit,deception, disability,despair,dust to dust etc - it will of course be fun when everyone and everything will be restored to the original very good when man walked and talked with God and it was paradise and heaven on earth - btw what sort of freewill is found, at Rmns.7:15-25,except a flawed freewill. - btw I have already shown that animals can be in heaven but heaven on earth in new heaven and earth when the whole creation that fell with Adam is restored to its original pristine very good - btw not just the child but the parents also do not have freewill either - twinc
 
Infants DON’T have free will until they have the ability to sin by definition. Free will to sin or not? Free will to follow what is right and wrong? When is that? I would say , most likely, sometime around where speech is developed into closer to sentences. About 2yrs to 4yrs, I would say?Animals and infants in this area,speaking of the essence of the mind and spirit, is very close to the same. In the exception to the wild animal,instinct only and learning experience of instinct only.
My dog is emotionally attached to me,she misses me and cries to see me when I’m gone,that’s what infants do also.Wild animals don’t do that.So, what is going on in their mind?Is it love?Love that flows from God?How can God destroy an infant and animal that has love?Simple answer, He doesn’t.If this love is of God,God can’t destroy something that is of Himself, no brainer.
 
FaithJoy said:
Infants DON’T have free will until they have the ability to sin by definition. Free will to sin or not? Free will to follow what is right and wrong? When is that? I would say , most likely, sometime around where speech is developed into closer to sentences. About 2yrs to 4yrs, I would say?Animals and infants in this area,speaking of the essence of the mind and spirit, is very close to the same. In the exception to the wild animal,instinct only and learning experience of instinct only.
My dog is emotionally attached to me,she misses me and cries to see me when I’m gone,that’s what infants do also.Wild animals don’t do that.So, what is going on in their mind?Is it love?Love that flows from God?How can God destroy an infant and animal that has love?Simple answer, He doesn’t.If this love is of God,God can’t destroy something that is of Himself, no brainer.
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FaithJoy it seems that most/many have not and cannot grasp the quote from Wisdom - twinc
 
There seems to be misunderstandings about basic Catholic teaching here.

Children are born with the stain of original sin.

They are also born with a rational soul, having intellect and will. When they reach the age of reason (about 7) they are capable of committing actual sin.

Animals do not have a rational soul and do not go to heaven and share in the beatific vision.
 
NoelFitz said:
There seems to be misunderstandings about basic Catholic teaching here.

Children are born with the stain of original sin.

They are also born with a rational soul, having intellect and will. When they reach the age of reason (about 7) they are capable of committing actual sin.

Animals do not have a rational soul and do not go to heaven and share in the beatific vision.
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Prove it! I haven’t heard proof yet after several pages. Don’t just state something. Give a rational argument. As for me, you said nothing.
 
You might like to read osv.com/tabid/7631/itemid/785/Do-Animals-Go-to-Heaven.aspx

I quote part of it:
St. Thomas Aquinas (c. 1225-1274) taught that animal “souls” could not by their nature survive death. Unlike human souls, he said, they are perishable when separated from their proper bodies.
Even so, perhaps that leaves open the possibility that God might choose to keep at least some animal “souls” from perishing after death, granting them a privilege beyond their natural capacity.
In any case, we do know that, since animals cannot have sanctifying grace in their souls, they cannot receive the Beatific Vision. So if some animals go to heaven in some sense, it wouldn’t be for the same reason that humans are in heaven.
What other reasons could there be? It just might be that God would allow the animals we’ve loved on earth to take part somehow in our heavenly life as part of our eternal happiness.
In fact, since God himself takes delight in all the good creatures He has made, perhaps He would give animals some sort of life in heaven for the sake of His own pleasure and glory.
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=Apollos;6829896]A Franciscan. Go figure.
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Anyway, I’m willing to bet the same author denies that anyone goes to hell, including animals.
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If knowing God as he is in himself is what heaven is all about, then what rationale is there for animals to be there? Unless perhaps they would exist for our sake.
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***TRUE all living things posses a solu OF SORTS! That is something within than annimates life.

BUT Only humanity* of the hundreds of THOUSANDS of living things on earth have not ONLY a much greater soul; but our souls are matched with a mind, intellect and freewill. It i these very God-like attributs that reserve HEAVEN for those human beings who make RIGHT USE of these Spiritual Gifts, that permit ONLY HUMANITY** to know God; freely choose to love and serve God and to THANK God for all that He is, and all that He does for us.

The choice of heaven or Hell is not God’s choice; NO IT IS BASED ON THE PERSONAL DECISIONS THAT WE EACH MAKE AS INDIVIDUALS. ONLY HUMANITY has that potential an without it heaven or hell, for that matter are IMPOSSIBILITIES!

Love and prayes,
Pat
 
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