Do all Latin Rite parish priests have the "right" to say the Novus Ordo ad orientem?

[jdnrite01]

JoanM said:

Actually, most of the Masses celebrated inside St. Peter’s Basilica are, of necessity, ad orientem. Why? Because most of the altars are flat against the walls of the basilica!

Masses from St. Peter’s Basilica were celebrated both versus populum and ad orientem . The problem is that for topographical reasons St. Peter’s was built with the main door (rather than the apse) toward the East, and the High Altar is located in the western part of the Church. (Many other Churches in Rome which were constructed during the same time period are similarly designed with the Apse in the western end.) Immediately before the High Altar is the “confession” (Latin: confessio), an area sunk below floor level to enable people to come close to the tomb of the saint buried beneath the altar. The best-known such “confession” is that in St Peter’s Basilica, but many other churches in Rome have the same architectural feature, including the original Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls.

Interestingly, there are reports that when the celebrant in such a Church was facing the people, the people would turn away from him to also face east during the Consecration.

 

[porthos11]

One thing to be aware of, the English translation of GIRM 299 is a bit imprecise. The Latin is a little more clear

The ‘quod’ modifies the main premise of the sentance, the first clause, the ‘Altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum’; that the altar should be built away from the wall whenever possible.

The secondary clause, to allow a Mass facing the people, is not modified by the qualifer.

This is an interesting tidbit. I know little of Latin grammar and I’d like to keep this in mind the next time we need to argue with a “liturgist”. What rule is the basis that connects the quod with the first clause and not the second.

 

[japhy]

This is an interesting tidbit. I know little of Latin grammar and I’d like to keep this in mind the next time we need to argue with a “liturgist”. What rule is the basis that connects the quod with the first clause and not the second.

Well, you can see Fr. Z’s analysis of it here. I believe it comes down to the gender of the words (proper grammar, that is).

The Latin of GIRM 299 reads: Altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum, ut facile circumiri et in eo celebratio versus populum peragi possit, quod expedit ubicumque possibile sit.

I have bolded all the nouns. Altare is nominative singular neuter. Pariete (wall) is ablative singular masculine. Celebratio is nominative singular feminine. Populum is accusative plural masculine.

The word quod here means “which”. It is nominative singular neuter. The only noun it could refer back to, then, is altare. Thus, the clause “which is desirable wherever possible” refers to the altar being built away from the wall. The clause about being able to walk around it easily and be able to celebrate Mass facing the people is there to give context to the distance from the wall: enough room to walk about it (for incensing the altar) and even, if the priest so desires, to celebrate Mass facing the people.

This is not a case of “forcing” the interpretation to mean what “we” want it to mean; rather, it’s a case of the Latin being written properly and of us simply translating it grammatically accurately.

 

[porthos11]

Well, you can see Fr. Z’s analysis of it here. I believe it comes down to the gender of the words (proper grammar, that is).

The Latin of GIRM 299 reads: Altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum, ut facile circumiri et in eo celebratio versus populum peragi possit, quod expedit ubicumque possibile sit.

I have bolded all the nouns. Altare is nominative singular neuter. Pariete (wall) is ablative singular masculine. Celebratio is nominative singular feminine. Populum is accusative plural masculine.

The word quod here means “which”. It is nominative singular neuter. The only noun it could refer back to, then, is altare. Thus, the clause “which is desirable wherever possible” refers to the altar being built away from the wall. The clause about being able to walk around it easily and be able to celebrate Mass facing the people is there to give context to the distance from the wall: enough room to walk about it (for incensing the altar) and even, if the priest so desires, to celebrate Mass facing the people.

This is not a case of “forcing” the interpretation to mean what “we” want it to mean; rather, it’s a case of the Latin being written properly and of us simply translating it grammatically accurately.

Very good, thank you.