Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

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Sadly, here’s what Luther actually thought of the Pope and the Papacy; this is the kind of contempt he taught his followers to have toward the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops etc!

Hic Oscula Pedibus Papae Figuntur (Kissing the Pope’s Feet)


thumbsnap.com/v/9M1s3m0Y.jpg

Caption reads:

“Nicht Bapst: nicht schreck vnd mit Deim ban
Vnd sey nicht so zorniger man.
Wir thun sonst ein gegen wehre,
Vnd zeigen dirs Bel vedere.”

“Don’t frighten us Pope, with your ban,
And don’t be such a furious man.
Otherwise we shall turn away,
And show you our rears.”
*Adoratur Papa Deus Terrenus (The Pope, God of this World, is Worshiped)
*

thumbsnap.com/v/0UTSRaPw.jpg

“Bapst hat dem Reich Christi gethon,
Wie man hie handelt seine Cron.
Machts jr zweifeltig: spricht der geist (Apoc. 18)
Schenekt getrost ein. Gott ists ders heist.”

“The Pope has treated the Kingdom of Christ,
Just as his crown is hear being treated.
If you have doubt about it, the (holy) spirit says [Rev. 18]
Pour it in with good cheer, God himself commands it.”

And of course this there is this one:

The Birth and Origin of the Pope (Ortus et Origo Papae).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#Recent_trends_in_research

These woodcuts (Ger., Holzschnitte) appear in volume 54 of D. Martin Luthers Werke. Kritische Gesamtausgabe (Weimarer Ausgabe).

They are reprinted here (pp. 191ff.):

Luther’s Last Battles: Politics and Polemics 1531-46, Mark U. Edwards, Jr., Fortress Press, 2006
ISBN 0800637356, 9780800637354

books.google.com/books?id=kYbupalP98kC&pg=PA192&dq=%22The+Pope+has+treated+the+Kingdom+of+Christ%22&lr=&as_brr=0&ei=Ud7BSLWXHoyIjwHS6pzrDQ&sig=ACfU3U3v5HeMx_ed6Ih7I0elbwV8p3yWEA#PPA192,M1
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
Sadly, here’s what Luther actually thought of the Pope and the Papacy; this is the kind of contempt he taught his followers to have toward the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops etc!

Hic Oscula Pedibus Papae Figuntur (Kissing the Pope’s Feet)

http://thumbsnap.com/images/9M1s3m0Y.jpg
thumbsnap.com/v/9M1s3m0Y.jpg

Caption reads:

“Nicht Bapst: nicht schreck vnd mit Deim ban
Vnd sey nicht so zorniger man.
Wir thun sonst ein gegen wehre,
Vnd zeigen dirs Bel vedere.”

“Don’t frighten us Pope, with your ban,
And don’t be such a furious man.
Otherwise we shall turn away,
And show you our rears.”
*Adoratur Papa Deus Terrenus (The Pope, God of this World, is Worshiped)
*
http://thumbsnap.com/images/0UTSRaPw.jpg
thumbsnap.com/v/0UTSRaPw.jpg

“Bapst hat dem Reich Christi gethon,
Wie man hie handelt seine Cron.
Machts jr zweifeltig: spricht der geist (Apoc. 18)
Schenekt getrost ein. Gott ists ders heist.”

“The Pope has treated the Kingdom of Christ,
Just as his crown is hear being treated.
If you have doubt about it, the (holy) spirit says [Rev. 18]
Pour it in with good cheer, God himself commands it.”

And of course this there is this one:

The Birth and Origin of the Pope (Ortus et Origo Papae).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#Recent_trends_in_research

These woodcuts (Ger., Holzschnitte) appear in volume 54 of D. Martin Luthers Werke. Kritische Gesamtausgabe (Weimarer Ausgabe).

They are reprinted here (pp. 191ff.):

Luther’s Last Battles: Politics and Polemics 1531-46, Mark U. Edwards, Jr., Fortress Press, 2006
ISBN 0800637356, 9780800637354

books.google.com/books?id=kYbupalP98kC&pg=PA192&dq=%22The+Pope+has+treated+the+Kingdom+of+Christ%22&lr=&as_brr=0&ei=Ud7BSLWXHoyIjwHS6pzrDQ&sig=ACfU3U3v5HeMx_ed6Ih7I0elbwV8p3yWEA#PPA192,M1
Click to expand...
You’re obsessed with defaming Luther, aren’t you? You bring him up in every single conversation I’ve seen you have on here. Would you react the same if in every conversation you had with someone we detail a list of the foibles of Pope Alexander VI?
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
Sadly, here’s what Luther actually thought of the Pope and the Papacy; this is the kind of contempt he taught his followers to have toward the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops etc!

Hic Oscula Pedibus Papae Figuntur (Kissing the Pope’s Feet)

http://thumbsnap.com/images/9M1s3m0Y.jpg
thumbsnap.com/v/9M1s3m0Y.jpg

Caption reads:

“Nicht Bapst: nicht schreck vnd mit Deim ban
Vnd sey nicht so zorniger man.
Wir thun sonst ein gegen wehre,
Vnd zeigen dirs Bel vedere.”

“Don’t frighten us Pope, with your ban,
And don’t be such a furious man.
Otherwise we shall turn away,
And show you our rears.”
*Adoratur Papa Deus Terrenus (The Pope, God of this World, is Worshiped)
*
http://thumbsnap.com/images/0UTSRaPw.jpg
thumbsnap.com/v/0UTSRaPw.jpg

“Bapst hat dem Reich Christi gethon,
Wie man hie handelt seine Cron.
Machts jr zweifeltig: spricht der geist (Apoc. 18)
Schenekt getrost ein. Gott ists ders heist.”

“The Pope has treated the Kingdom of Christ,
Just as his crown is hear being treated.
If you have doubt about it, the (holy) spirit says [Rev. 18]
Pour it in with good cheer, God himself commands it.”

And of course this there is this one:

The Birth and Origin of the Pope (Ortus et Origo Papae).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#Recent_trends_in_research

These woodcuts (Ger., Holzschnitte) appear in volume 54 of D. Martin Luthers Werke. Kritische Gesamtausgabe (Weimarer Ausgabe).

They are reprinted here (pp. 191ff.):

Luther’s Last Battles: Politics and Polemics 1531-46, Mark U. Edwards, Jr., Fortress Press, 2006
ISBN 0800637356, 9780800637354

books.google.com/books?id=kYbupalP98kC&pg=PA192&dq=%22The+Pope+has+treated+the+Kingdom+of+Christ%22&lr=&as_brr=0&ei=Ud7BSLWXHoyIjwHS6pzrDQ&sig=ACfU3U3v5HeMx_ed6Ih7I0elbwV8p3yWEA#PPA192,M1
Click to expand...
I don’t have contempt for the Pope and I’m Luteran. You THINK we all have contempt- but you are wrong, just like you think Protestants are wrong on their beliefs about Catholics - you have to admit that much.

Wow, it takes a real hatred or dislike of Lutherans to dig to find these kinds of pictures and saying…must have taken you a long time to dig for all this…I think that shows your (personal) contempt for Lutherans more than Lutherans for Catholics.

You can take one bad thing and make all Lutherans out to be bad, but I can take plenty from the Church’s past and do the same. It gets us no where though.
 
TriuneUnity said:
The papacy is the Anti-Christ and fits the biblical model of 2 Thessalonians.
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Let us say this is true for a minute.

What else fits the Biblical model of 2 Thessalonians according to Lutherans?

Do Lutherans call that the Anti-Christ?

I guess my question is why does just the papacy get this notoriety from Lutherans.
 
Let us say this is true for a minute.

What else fits the Biblical model of 2 Thessalonians according to Lutherans?

Do Lutherans call that the Anti-Christ?

I guess my question is why does just the papacy get this notoriety from Lutherans?
 
With_Questions said:
Let us say this is true for a minute.

What else fits the Biblical model of 2 Thessalonians according to Lutherans?

Do Lutherans call that the Anti-Christ?

I guess my question is why does just the papacy get this notoriety from Lutherans.
Click to expand...
It receives that noteriety precisely because there is no institution other than it within any church that fits the biblical model of 2 Thessalonians.
 
TriuneUnity said:
It receives that noteriety precisely because there is no institution other than it within any church that fits the biblical model of 2 Thessalonians.
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You are making an unspecified claim that is you say it fits a model yet you don’t demonstrate how.
Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god-- do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene.
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And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.
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You say it is the office not the man if I have understood you correctly. I have heard the claim by some that the Pope claims to be God. Yet when pressed they cannot provide any evidence of the claim. To state it fits the model is not enough, it is just words, I could say the same about any faith. Demonstrate what you mean by it fits.
 
TriuneUnity said:
It receives that noteriety precisely because there is no institution other than it within any church that fits the biblical model of 2 Thessalonians.
Click to expand...
You think 2 Thessalonians refers to the papacy?

I don’t get it.

For starters verse 3 indicates to me this passage concerns a man, not an office.
 
With_Questions said:
You think 2 Thessalonians refers to the papacy?

I don’t get it.
Click to expand...
Yes. Rather than posting an entire article on the topic I did post a link to my Synod’s website that gives a thorough explanation on the passages in question.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Yes. Rather than posting an entire article on the topic I did post a link to my Synod’s website that gives a thorough explanation on the passages in question.
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I read the article and still don’t get it.

I don’t want to argue Scripture, but I just read that chapter again, but I counted several points in this passage of Scripture that just do not line up with the papacy.

Just because Luther believed that the papacy was the anti-Christ doesn’t necessarily mean that Luther was correct.

I will let someone else argue this point though
 
TriuneUnity said:
Yes. Rather than posting an entire article on the topic I did post a link to my Synod’s website that gives a thorough explanation on the passages in question.
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WOW! That sure is a lot stronger than the apparently watered-down reference I found earlier; straight from the horse’s mouth too and sure doesn’t leave any room for doubt. I had NO idea that your church teaches that sort of material: “Therefore on the basis of a renewed study of the pertinent Scriptures we reaffirm the statement of the Lutheran Confessions, that the Pope is the very Antichrist (etc, etc., etc.).” The whole thing reads like a chick tract or one of Joseph Smith’s comments circa the Book of Mormon. I never would have suspected that Lutherans taught that kind of garbage as well.
 
RC_Matt said:
WOW! That sure is a lot stronger than the apparently watered-down reference I found earlier; straight from the horse’s mouth too and sure doesn’t leave any room for doubt. I had NO idea that your church teaches that sort of material: “Therefore on the basis of a renewed study of the pertinent Scriptures we reaffirm the statement of the Lutheran Confessions, that the Pope is the very Antichrist (etc, etc., etc.).” The whole thing reads like a chick tract or one of Joseph Smith’s comments circa the Book of Mormon. I never would have suspected that Lutherans taught that kind of garbage as well.
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Again, the Lutheran church does NOT teach this - just because of a few extremists doesn’t mean lutherans are running around calling the Pope the antichrist.

After going back and reading the posts, I want to point out incase some catholics didn’t know, TriuneUnity is from the Wisconsin sect of Luteranism - there are 3 synods - the Wisconsin senate (strict - you practically can’t even enter into the church unless you belong to that senate), the Missouri Senate (which I am - this is between the 2 extremes) and the evangelical senate (which is liberal).

I am not attacking you triune - I am not meaning it to come off that way. Maybe the wisconsin senate does believe the Pope is the antichrist, but I just want the catholics and other religions out there to not lump the other two synods in with that belief.
 
Pinkyyy said:
Again, the Lutheran church does NOT teach this - just because of a few extremists doesn’t mean lutherans are running around calling the Pope the antichrist.

After going back and reading the posts, I want to point out incase some catholics didn’t know, TriuneUnity is from the Wisconsin sect of Luteranism - there are 3 synods - the Wisconsin senate (strict - you practically can’t even enter into the church unless you belong to that senate), the Missouri Senate (which I am - this is between the 2 extremes) and the evangelical senate (which is liberal).

I am not attacking you triune - I am not meaning it to come off that way. Maybe the wisconsin senate does believe the Pope is the antichrist, but I just want the catholics and other religions out there to not lump the other two synods in with that belief.
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I wouldn’t lump the other two Synods in with that belief. The ELCA has no discernible beliefs anymore, so I won’t even address them as Lutheran. You’re Missouri Synod, Pinkyyy?

I wouldn’t criticize the LCMS view on this issue either. Here’s why:

“As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation – these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)”

From the LCMS website.
 
RC_Matt said:
WOW! That sure is a lot stronger than the apparently watered-down reference I found earlier; straight from the horse’s mouth too and sure doesn’t leave any room for doubt. I had NO idea that your church teaches that sort of material: “Therefore on the basis of a renewed study of the pertinent Scriptures we reaffirm the statement of the Lutheran Confessions, that the Pope is the very Antichrist (etc, etc., etc.).” The whole thing reads like a chick tract or one of Joseph Smith’s comments circa the Book of Mormon. I never would have suspected that Lutherans taught that kind of garbage as well.
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It may not sit well with you, RC, and really, I won’t debate you over it. It is what we teach and what we affirm. I cannot and will not change this belief in order to avoid offense. With the routine way in which Catholics here and elsewhere flippantly call us heretics and disobedient to Christ, my last concern is whether our statements on the papacy don’t sit well with Roman Catholicism. I believe it to be truth and must obey God rather than men. It isn’t intended for offense but to maintain the truth of the gospel.
 
TriuneUnity said:
I wouldn’t lump the other two Synods in with that belief. The ELCA has no discernible beliefs anymore, so I won’t even address them as Lutheran. You’re Missouri Synod, Pinkyyy?
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Now that I agree with you on!!! My parents are ELCA - and boy do I wish they would join the missouri (I was confirmed in the missouri which is my good luck I guess before they went back to their ELCA). After attending mass with my husband, I have become even more strict in my thinking which they don’t like - basically I have to hear my mom’s “opinions” all the time about why I’m too strict on this or that - it’s annoying, lol. I like that I was/am apart of the Missouri Synod because I think it made me stronger in my views and stricter - something that I see some similarity in the RCC.
TriuneUnity said:
I wouldn’t criticize the LCMS view on this issue either. Here’s why:

“As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation – these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)”

From the LCMS website.
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I just find it weird to hear these things b/c I never heard anything but good things for the CC during my confirmation - yes they pointed out differences, but never once did they call the pope the anti-christ. From this conversation I have done some interesting research and I don’t believe the pope would turn out to be the anti-christ, BUT, it’s possible that the pope or someone in a position of power in the church (catholic, protestant, whatever) MAY be one of the 2 beasts (not the antichrist).

here is the link:
be-ready.org/pope.html

I really don’t know as I haven’t researched it much, but would like to now. Catholics, I love your beliefs and you guys are the closest there is to my lutheran religion, so I am NOT slamming you guys here - really. This is something I read on the internet. It’s not like I am saying the Pope is the beast. There are so many theories out there who knows what will happen. I know that the Pope runs the church based on thousands of years of history and that CC believes that basically it’s always following the will of God because Jesus gave the church authority, but the church (or one Pope in particular) abused that power and caused widespread terror and destruction - whose to say a future leader in the CC couldn’t do the same?

Boy this is hard!
 
“When did you stop beating your wife?”

For centuries most Protestants believed the pope was the Man of Sin (Wicked One in the JB) in 2 Thess 2, partly because of an historicist hermeneutic of prophecy. They saw the pope in the little horn power of Daniel 7-8, for example.

Only pretty conservative Protestants hold this view anymore. Keep in mind that when Luther was writing, the pope was much more controlling than he can be today, and based on the level of violence that exploded in following centuries, there was plenty of blame to be thrown down on both sides.

I think it would be fair to say that any system of controlling another person’s spiritual life would fall within the parameters of 2 Thess 2. One can respect the individuals in question, as I do for JP2 and Benedict, and disagree with the system they represent.
 
Pinkyyy said:
I just find it weird to hear these things b/c I never heard anything but good things for the CC during my confirmation - yes they pointed out differences, but never once did they call the pope the anti-christ. From this conversation I have done some interesting research and I don’t believe the pope would turn out to be the anti-christ, BUT, it’s possible that the pope or someone in a position of power in the church (catholic, protestant, whatever) MAY be one of the 2 beasts (not the antichrist).
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It is something that is maintain as a belief but is not talked about a lot nor really used anymore. We as Christians have far more to be concerned with than the teaching of the papacy.
I really don’t know as I haven’t researched it much, but would like to now. Catholics, I love your beliefs and you guys are the closest there is to my lutheran religion, so I am NOT slamming you guys here - really. This is something I read on the internet. It’s not like I am saying the Pope is the beast. There are so many theories out there who knows what will happen. I know that the Pope runs the church based on thousands of years of history and that CC believes that basically it’s always following the will of God because Jesus gave the church authority, but the church (or one Pope in particular) abused that power and caused widespread terror and destruction - whose to say a future leader in the CC couldn’t do the same?
Click to expand...
Boy this is hard!
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I should reiterate here that I don’t lump the Pope in with all the end times nonsense or whore or babylon silliness that you see within fundamentalism. On that much, Luther was wrong. It was a misreading of apocalyptic language within the book of Revelation. It is strictly concerned with the concept as found in 2 Thess. which isn’t necessarily connected with anything about the “end times.”
 
I know you will correct me if I’m wrong and I hope you do. Here is how I understand what has been posted so far. 🙂

The papacy (the office, not the man) is the AntiChrist because there were bad popes in the past who blew it so now we can’t trust the office or its authority.

Correct, not correct?

If correct, do Lutherans believe there should be no papal office at all and never should have been? Who then, is the successor to Peter? Has it become the AntiChrist? How does that fit in with the gates of Hell not prevailing against the Church? Wouldn’t the AntiChrist heading the Church be Hell prevailing?
 
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