Do all "monotheisms" worship the same God?

[fide]

Worship of a supernatural God does not imply a supernatural act of worship in the worshipper. One can worship as a natural act, just as one’s faith - or belief - can be a natural and not a supernatural act. Many people have not received the gift of [supernatural] faith, or if they have, do not believe supernaturally, but rather their faith rests and is lived based on what the understand (a natural act), what they have reasoned in their minds concerning God (a natural act), what they have been taught by their parents or religious leaders they respect (a natural act), or even by witnessing a supernatural miracle, responding in natural amazement (a natural act) and natural faith.

Does that make sense to you? What I have said is not opposed to Catholic teachings at all.

 

[Feanor2]

Worship of a supernatural God does not imply a supernatural act of worship in the worshipper. One can worship as a natural act, just as one’s faith - or belief - can be a natural and not a supernatural act. Many people can not received the gift of [supernatural] faith, or if they have, do not believe supernaturally, but rather their faith rests and is lived based on what the understand (a natural act), what they have reasoned in their minds concerning God (a natural act), what they have ben taught by their parents or religious leaders they respect (a natural act), or even by witnessing a supernatural miracle, responding in natural amazement (a natural act).

Does that make sense to you? What I have said is not opposed to Catholic teachings at all.

No that doesn’t make sense to me.

I can only say that Muslims worship the same God as we Catholics as that is Church teaching.

 

[Dovekin]

Blessed Charles de Foucauld will soon be canonized. This announcement by he Vatican on 27 May should be relevant to all who are interested in his topic.

 

[fide]

No that doesn’t make sense to me.

I can only say that Muslims worship the same God as we Catholics as that is Church teaching.

[Catholic] Bishop Athanasius Schneider speaks of this in his book, this way:

Every non-Christian, every non-baptized person, including a Muslim, can adore God on the level of the natural knowledge of the existence of God. They adore in a natural act of adoration the same God, whom we adore in a supernatural act and with supernatural faith in the Holy Trinity. But these are two essentially different acts of adoration: the one is an act of natural knowledge and the other is an act of supernatural faith. The acts of adoration, and the acts of knowing on which they are based, are substantially different, though the object is the same in that it is the same God.

Schneider, Bishop Athanasius. Christus Vincit: Christ’s Triumph Over the Darkness of the Age (p. 77). Angelico Press. Kindle Edition.

A fairly good explanation, by a different [Catholic] writer, in the Catholic online magazine Homiletic & Pastoral Review, of the difference between a natural faith and a supernatural faith can be found here:
Natural and Supernatural Faith.

 

[OneSheep]

[Catholic] Bishop Athanasius Schneider speaks of this in his book, this way:

Here was my earlier response, I think you may have missed it:

It is only a supernatural faith if our faith transcends our nature. It is natural to be tribal, for example, but Jesus calls us to see those of different faith as people to be loved and accepted, as He did the Samaritans. It is natural to hate enemies and to despise those who persecute. Jesus calls us to love our enemies, which is also supernatural.

Sowing discord is not supernatural. It is a very natural activity from those who hold others in contempt. What has Bishop Schneider done to counteract such contempt? When you show me this, then we may see something supernatural.

A fairly good explanation, by a different [Catholic] writer, in the Catholic online magazine Homiletic & Pastoral Review, of the difference between a natural faith and a supernatural faith can be found here:

From the article:

Actual grace also serves to activate the infused virtues, and if the individual is in the state of sanctifying grace (for faith and hope can exist without grace), the actuation perfects the infused virtues and is meritorious of increase and growth in the supernatural life.

If a person is in a state of sanctifying grace, they are indeed growing in the supernatural life, which is in accord with the Gospel. Such virtues include, like I mentioned, love of one’s enemies, sowing peace, practicing humility, and so forth.

 

[fide]

It is only a supernatural faith if our faith transcends our nature. It is natural to be tribal, for example, but Jesus calls us to see those of different faith as people to be loved and accepted, as He did the Samaritans. It is natural to hate enemies and to despise those who persecute. Jesus calls us to love our enemies, which is also supernatural.

Sowing discord is not supernatural. It is a very natural activity from those who hold others in contempt. What has Bishop Schneider done to counteract such contempt? When you show me this, then we may see something supernatural.

It sounds to me that you are judging supernatural faith by natural means - which cannot be completely true. I won’t point out some of the possible examples in Scripture where Jesus was thought to be “sowing discord”, since you probably remember them yourself, but surely Jesus was not acting in “contempt”, nor failing to love, nor lacking in grace of any sort. Supernatural faith is grounded in holy Truth - as Aquinas explains,

Accordingly if we consider, in faith, the formal aspect of the object, it is nothing else than the First Truth. For the faith of which we are speaking, does not assent to anything, except because it is revealed by God.
St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

And as Paul explains concerning the faith that saves - it is gift, given by grace - which grace itself is a participation in the [supernatural] divine life (CCC 1997):

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

All of the natural works of man are, well, “natural” - and the faith attained through his natural works comprise “natural faith”. Saving faith is supernatural, having origin in God, and is gift, “not our own doing”. Natural faith, having origin in the knowledge that God exists, and some of His necessary attributes, are attainable through God’s gift of human reason - but such, by way of human reasoning alone, is not “supernatural faith.”

A purely natural faith can result in a highly virtuous, moral life! Natural faith is not an evil thing! But the worship (adoration) that proceeds from a natural faith is NOT “the same” as that which proceeds from a supernatural faith. The object of each can be “the same” - whether “the same” One God, or even in a less precise way “the same” if one belief is in the Trinitarian God and the other, a God outside of the Trinitarian revelation. The object can be supernatural, while the faith, and worship or adoration offered, can be either natural or supernatural.

 

[fide]

What has Bishop Schneider done to counteract such contempt? When you show me this, then we may see something supernatural.

This sounds like “guilty until proved innocent!” I’ll leave it to you to judge Bishop Schneider as an instigator of contempt or not. Having read some of his writings, it is clear to me that he is a faithful Catholic seeking to be true to the Truth of our Faith. Read for yourself, if you doubt “something supernatural” in him.

 

[fide]

If a person is in a state of sanctifying grace, they are indeed growing in the supernatural life, which is in accord with the Gospel. Such virtues include, like I mentioned, love of one’s enemies, sowing peace, practicing humility, and so forth.

One last response to your post! A newly baptized infant is in a state of sanctifying grace, but will not immediately begin growing in the supernatural life. He will have been given the potency to grow in that life, in accord with the Gospel, in the virtues and the gifts infused at Baptism. But a person having been baptized does not “automatically” begin to love with the very love with which God loves [that is, with holy Charity]. He does not automatically begin to hope with supernatural hope - that is, in the things of God and in eternal life with Him and all who are in Him. He does not begin to understand reality with the holy wisdom infused into him in potency, at Baptism. The potential, the potency is there - but he may or may not ever grow in them. A horrible possibility: he may grow to destroy all that grace, through a life of mortal sins, unrepentant.

 

[OneSheep]

I won’t point out some of the possible examples in Scripture where Jesus was thought to be “sowing discord”, since you probably remember them yourself

Jesus, in correcting the Pharisees, was not sowing discord between people of different religious identity. In fact, He called us to love our enemies (e.g. #1 enemies were Roman) and he used the loathed Samaritans as examples of holiness.

as Aquinas explains

The word “supernatural” does not appear in the link, but it is a good section. Note this:

“in as much as nothing comes under faith except in relation to God”

St. Thomas does not eliminate people from other faiths as having relations with the same God as we do. And note: the truth is in the relationship.

which grace itself is a participation in the [supernatural] divine life

Correct. And criticizing people of other religions, characterizing their faiths as not of the same God, especially when the CCC says the opposite, is not a stance described by Catholics as part of “participating in the divine life”.

Tribalism is a human phenomenon. God is not tribal.

A purely natural faith can result in a highly virtuous, moral life! Natural faith is not an evil thing! But the worship (adoration) that proceeds from a natural faith is NOT “the same” as that which proceeds from a supernatural faith.

I think we can all admit that a person of natural faith who is not putting down the faith of other religions is demonstrating something far more virtuous than a person who claims to have a “supernatural” faith, but is prideful about their beliefs.

Having read some of his writings, it is clear to me that he is a faithful Catholic seeking to be true to the Truth of our Faith.

Okay, that sounds great and I don’t doubt it, but it would be wonderful if you could post something here he said that pertains to the topic that does not potentially sow discord between faith traditions or contradict the CCC.

The potential, the potency is there - but he may or may not ever grow in them.

Good point. A sign of growth would be the person coming to love and accept (which doesn’t mean agree with) the faith traditions of other people. People are naturally tribal; Jesus calls us to break out of our tribal enslavement, which is exactly what the Apostles did when the Spirit led the gentiles to the faith.

The gentiles did not join a faith where the faithful looked at them with scowls. No, the Christians were known by their love.

 

[new-kirishitan]

Then came dispersal of peoples and imaginations of what is god piling on top of memories and on top of stories of who God really was, until the imaginations overtook and fully distilled knowledge of the one God in many areas of the world.

I think a Muslim who says that he doesn’t worship the same God as we do would be an ignorant one. Because Christians and Jews are supposed to be viewed as the “People of the Book”, who received earlier revelations from the SAME GOD, but rejected the most important teachings, which were passed down through their prophet Mohammed. I would argue that while the Muslims do worship the same God as we do, their understanding about God is wrong.

 

[fide]

I think I’ve said all I wanted to say on this, so I’ll leave you to your own thoughts on the issues involved. I don’t see any changes down this road… Thank you for all your thoughts.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t see any changes down this road

LOL! I saw that last week. Thank you for your patience and time, agreeing or not. As we say in my hometown, “Vaya con dios.”

 

[EndTimes]

Whatever… The Golden Rule is virtually universal .