Do all religions stand or fall together?

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

But there will come a time when the whole world will recognize that the Catholic Church is God’s chosen instrument for Teaching His Doctrines to the world.

Again, this is a comforting belief.

Comforting?

But, all evidence is to the contrary–growth in major world religions (and religious unaffiliation!) is the trend.

But we know how it will end. So it doesn’t matter what the evidence points to now.

 

[ATraveller]

No.
From a theological POV, God will preserve the Christian faith.
From a sociological POV, the institutions function perfectly well on their own. The rise of the nones has mostly been irreligious people no longer feeling the need to identify with a religion.

 

[Magnanimity]

The statement “Jesus is God” is either True or False. To be united in Truth would, by logic, mean excluding those who hold the opposite position. Any unity that is based on Truth would require that.

It’s a great point, and while I didn’t directly bring it up in my post, it’s probably worth addressing here. Is truth meant to be the thing that unites us? Forgive the pun but, it isn’t obviously true that that’s true.

I remember sitting in a philosophy course on Existentialism in the late 90s when I was in undergrad, and one of the students asked the professor what philosopher she most agreed with, of all the philosophers that had ever lived and taught. Her answer was clever and sublime. She said, “Well, me! I am the philosopher that I most agree with. There is no other philosopher that’s ever lived that I agree with more than myself.”

OK, so what’s the point of that story? It illustrates a deep and, when we think about it, somewhat startling aspect of humanity. It is that no two people who have ever lived have 100% agreed with one another. It just hasn’t happened, probably can’t happen. You will never find yourself in perfect agreement with anyone, not the pope, not your spouse, not your children, not your bosom buddy, best friend in the whole world, not anyone… but yourself. And I don’t think this is a trivial fact. I suspect rather that it has deep ramifications with regard to your points here.

I don’t think truth is actually the thing that is designed to unite humanity. As in, I don’t think there is a set of propositions that we all are obliged to assent to and thereby we’ll achieve unity. However, it could be possible that achieving union with the divine is a unitive endeavor. But here’s the thing—we don’t achieve union with the divine by thinking all the right things. One can intellectually assent to all the correct propositions and still lead a miserable life, lacking in compassion and love for others, don’t you think? Isn’t this akin to the state of the fallen angels? Their problem is not that they’re mistaken so much as that they’re prideful. So in this case, it’s not knowledge but the will/behavior that created the chasm that separated them from God. Don’t you think this has important implications for what can unite people?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Jesus told us that the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church.
I would be lacking in faith if I went around saying Jesus was wrong and we had to band together with all the other false religions to keep his Church going.

I realize this is the Catholic view only but it is a matter of faith, and faithfulness to Catholic teaching.

 

[Magnanimity]

Comforting?

Yes, it’s psychologically comforting to believe that you’re in the right “group,” the group that has provided you with the means of salvation. Very, very comforting, necessarily.

But we know how it will end.

You have a particular belief of how it will all end, I’m sure. But I’m not certain of how you make the leap from belief to knowledge. I’m not trying to be a simple skeptic here. I’m merely pointing out that Catholics have never had a unified view of the “end times” or of Heaven or of Hell. I’m sorry, but it just isn’t the case. When you span the history of Catholic thought on these issues (and especially if you throw in the Orthodox!) there’s enough variation to match the variety of fauna found in the Congolese jungle!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m not certain of how you make the leap from belief to knowledge. I’m not trying to be a simple skeptic here. I’m merely pointing out that Catholics have never had a unified view of the “end times” or of Heaven or of Hell.

De Maria means that God, through his Church, triumphs in the end.

Catholics don’t sit around speculating on what exactly will happen at the “end times” other than the Last Judgment of course. It’s pretty much irrelevant to our day-to-day life, since it seems likely our own end time, as in death, will happen before the end times of the Earth. And if they happen to coincide, they coincide…we have to be prepared in exactly the same way regardless.

We make the leap “from belief to knowledge” through faith. A gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Magnanimity]

From a theological POV, God will preserve the Christian faith.

Ok, and what’s to say that God will not preserve all faiths? There is a functional element to all religions—their design is to draw the people toward holiness and to lead them ever toward the One (toward Reality).

I would be lacking in faith if I went around saying Jesus was wrong and we had to band together with all the other false religions to keep his Church going.

That’s true. It’s a good thing that no one here is saying that that’s what we should do. And what is meant by a “false religion?” A religion with a significant amount of truth and also some error within it? Clearly, none of the major religions I’ve mentioned are entirely false (quite the contrary).

 

[ATraveller]

Ok, and what’s to say that God will not preserve all faiths? There is a functional element to all religions—their design is to draw the people toward holiness and to lead them ever toward the One (toward Reality).

If you’re Christian, Scripture. Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way, Truth and Life. Other religions, though they have admirable aspects and wonderful adherents, are imperfect.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Clearly, none of the major religions I’ve mentioned are entirely false (quite the contrary).

A false religion is not necessarily “entirely false” but it is “imperfect” as ATraveller said, and lacking in the fullness of truth regardless of whether it gets a few things right or has basically good people in it.

 

[Magnanimity]

A false religion is not necessarily “entirely false” but it is “imperfect” as ATraveller said, and lacking in the fullness of truth regardless of whether it gets a few things right or has basically good people in it.

This sounds like a perfect description of every seeker, everywhere. Who among us has a perfect understanding of the mind and heart of our own religion? Or, more specifically to you and me, do we have a perfect understanding of the mind and heart of Christ? Not bloody likely.

Religions outside of Catholicism get more than just “a few things” right, and genuinely holy people can be found within them. Who among us would assert that the Dalai Lama is unholy? Not many, I think. And how many, even non-Catholics, would agree that Mother Theresa was holy? Many, very many.

Yes, it’s better to have the Eucharist than to not have it, so we (rightfully) pity our Protestant brothers and sisters. And yes, it’s better to know Christ than to not, so we (rightfully) pity Jewish people, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, but above all irreligious folks.

But none of these truths entails a position that other religions do not foster holiness and bring people closer to God, right?

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, it’s psychologically comforting to believe that you’re in the right “group,” the group that has provided you with the means of salvation. Very, very comforting, necessarily.

Hm? I think you’re confusing Catholicism with Protestantism. The Catholic Church does not teach an absolute assurance of salvation.

I was asking why you think it’s comforting to know that:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

That’s every knee, whether they are saved or not. As for my own salvation, it is in God’s hands.

You have a particular belief of how it will all end, I’m sure.

And you don’t share the same belief? Didn’t you describe yourself as Catholic?

But I’m not certain of how you make the leap from belief to knowledge.

We walk by faith and not by sight.

I’m not trying to be a simple skeptic here. I’m merely pointing out that Catholics have never had a unified view of the “end times” or of Heaven or of Hell.

Does any Catholic believe that God will lose in the end?

I’m sorry, but it just isn’t the case. When you span the history of Catholic thought on these issues (and especially if you throw in the Orthodox!) there’s enough variation to match the variety of fauna found in the Congolese jungle!

Give me one that says that God loses in the end.

Ok, and what’s to say that God will not preserve all faiths?

God is all truth. He isn’t preserving false religions even now.

There is a functional element to all religions—their design is to draw the people toward holiness and to lead them ever toward the One (toward Reality).

That is your assumption. In my opinion, Satan has created false religions to draw men away from the True Faith of God.

That’s true. It’s a good thing that no one here is saying that that’s what we should do.

You’re not? So, you’re merely inquiring if that’s what we should do?

And what is meant by a “false religion?”

A religion which was no established by God.

A religion with a significant amount of truth and also some error within it?

Nope. There is no error in Catholic Teaching.

Clearly, none of the major religions I’ve mentioned are entirely false (quite the contrary).

Except for the Judaic religion, which I believe you mentioned, the others are completely false. They may have some true doctrines, but they are not religions which lead to unity with almighty God.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I don’t know what Cynthia Bourgeault‘s motives are or exactly what else she has said so I won’t necessarily go along with it. But the position that you’ve articulated here is basically already happening against atheistic ideologies like Marxism. Also, I’m not sure where you’re getting the sectarianism from, except from fringe elements.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and the Dali Lama himself have all been fighting Communism (which can also be anti-theism, not just atheism), or other forms of atheistic ideologies for the better part of the last Century until today.

But more importantly with this thread is that religion isn’t politics. And I’m not sure if that’s something that you think is missing from what’s already happening today with regard to atheism, but it sounds like it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This sounds like a perfect description of every seeker, everywhere. Who among us has a perfect understanding of the mind and heart of our own religion? Or, more specifically to you and me, do we have a perfect understanding of the mind and heart of Christ?

I do not claim to “understand” all the mysteries of Christ. But when I am praying to him daily and regularly receiving him (not a “symbol”, not crackers and juice, but Jesus Himself) in the Eucharist, and have all the wonderful examples of Mary and the saints (who are mostly if not entirely absent from every other church except for the Orthodox Church (which the Catholic Church teaches is in “profound” communion with us and “lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration fo the Lord’s Eucharist”, CCC 838), I would be a fool to be seeking anywhere else.

Your profile says you’re Catholic. Are you a skeptic? Do you go seeking elsewhere? Do you have doubts about the lasting nature of the Church?

 

[De_Maria]

This sounds like a perfect description of every seeker, everywhere. Who among us has a perfect understanding of the mind and heart of our own religion? Or, more specifically to you and me, do we have a perfect understanding of the mind and heart of Christ? Not bloody likely.

We’re talking about the religion, not the individual.

Jesus Christ established the Catholic Faith and imbued the leaders which He appointed, with infallibility.

Religions outside of Catholicism get more than just “a few things” right, and genuinely holy people can be found within them.

In your opinion. There are many people who seem holy by human standards, but God is the only one who can read the heart.

Who among us would assert that the Dalai Lama is unholy? Not many, I think. And how many, even non-Catholics, would agree that Mother Theresa was holy? Many, very many.

We neither judge holiness nor unholiness. Only God reads the heart. The Dalai Lama seems like a nice person. So?

Yes, it’s better to have the Eucharist than to not have it, so we (rightfully) pity our Protestant brothers and sisters. And yes, it’s better to know Christ than to not, so we (rightfully) pity Jewish people, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, but above all irreligious folks.

Agreed.

But none of these truths entails a position that other religions do not foster holiness and bring people closer to God, right?

The Catholic Church does not teach about other religions. The Catholic Church Teaches the Commands of Jesus Christ.

Many of us assume that other religions teach righteousness and holiness. But, recently, as pertains to Muslims, that assumption has been challenged. And certainly many of these other religions have different understanding of righteousness than the Judeo/Christian belief.

 

[Dovekin]

Other faiths contain truth in them insofar as they have elements of Catholicism in them. They have no unique truth outside of the Catholic Church.

This is the basis for the OP speculation. Any truth that is found in other religions belongs as well to Christ, and so to the Catholic Church. Working together with other religiins to support whatever truth we share is one way to advance the cause of Christ.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This is the basis for the OP speculation. Any truth that is found in other religions belongs as well to Christ, and so to the Catholic Church. Working together with other religiins to support whatever truth we share is one way to advance the cause of Christ.

And I can totally get behind that, working together with other religions.
I think it’s a good thing to do as long as we’re coming at it from the perspective of trying to learn from the good that they do or get those good elements back into the Church.

But I don’t agree with doing it because we’re afraid our Church is somehow going to cave and fall if we don’t. We do it because it’s a good thing to do, not out of fear, or out of any thought that the other church might just be the right one after all (it’s not).

 

[Magnanimity]

I was asking why you think it’s comforting to know that:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

That’s every knee, whether they are saved or not. As for my own salvation, it is in God’s hands

I prefer 1 Corinthians 15:

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death… But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will [also] be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.”

God is all truth. He isn’t preserving false religions even now.

As we just read, in the end, God will be all in all. Again, I don’t know what is meant by “false religion,” unless it’s that “this religion does not embody as much truth/goodness/beauty as Catholicism.” But that was granted from the very beginning of this thread.

That is your assumption. In my opinion, Satan has created false religions to draw men away from the True Faith of God.

You think that Buddhism, for example, is a product of Satan?

They may have some true doctrines, but they are not religions which lead to unity with almighty God.

It’s hard to argue against success. There can be no doubt that Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have been (and continue to be) enormously successful and growing religions. You merely assert that non-Christian religions do not lead to unity with God. You’ve not shown how you could possibly know that. I do not personally know many Muslims, but every Buddhist I’ve known has certainly exemplified a sense of holiness, equanimity and compassion. Again, it’s hard to argue against the success of these religions. How in the world do you account for these growing “products of Satan” that have literally billions of adherents?

 

[Magnanimity]

Also, I’m not sure where you’re getting the sectarianism from, except from fringe elements.

The inclination toward sectarianism was visible early on within this very thread. I don’t see myself as a victim and I’m not whining, but there was no doubt a “circle the wagons,” gang up on the OP, mentality exhibited by multiple users above. The irony of the sectarian tendencies in a thread arguing against sectarianism was not lost on me. But it’s ok. I’m no saint, but my understanding is deep enough to feel mostly compassion toward folks who behave this way. And what of Islamic rhetoric toward the West? Not sectarian? What of Protestant leaders toward the Catholic Church (or anything outside of their little denomination)? Not sectarian? We’re kidding ourselves if we believe we’re beyond sectarianism within the religions.

But more importantly with this thread is that religion isn’t politics.

Both are capable of being terribly divisive and sectarian, but politics moreso (bc there is no emphasis on, or means of achieving, holiness within politics). Embedded within politics is dualistic, us vs. them, tribal thinking.

 

[Magnanimity]

Your profile says you’re Catholic.

The Catholic Church gives this humble guy much more than he could ever learn or partake of. I can’t even really imagine going elsewhere to connect with God (but neither could the Buddhist living in Bangkok).

Are you a skeptic? Do you go seeking elsewhere? Do you have doubts about the lasting nature of the Church?

I’m skeptical of sectarianism. I think dualistic, tribal tendencies of anyone (including Catholics) are fundamentally unhealthy and to be resisted. As the original post said, I suspect that rev. Bourgeault is correct—the religions do stand or fall together. I am much more likely to challenge the scientistic atheist than the devout Muslim. There is nothing to be lost and much to be gained by seeking more understanding (and appreciation) of other world religions that have stood the test of time.

 

[De_Maria]

I prefer 1 Corinthians 15:

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. …

Good passage. But I get the impression that you’re implying that you don’t care what Scripture says. As though, for you, reading Scripture is simply a passtime.

As we just read, in the end, God will be all in all.

What does that mean to you?

Again, I don’t know what is meant by “false religion,”

A religion that wasn’t established by God.

unless it’s that “this religion does not embody as much truth/goodness/beauty as Catholicism.” But that was granted from the very beginning of this thread.

I’ve already answered. Twice. I’m not changing my response.

You think that Buddhism, for example, is a product of Satan?

Yes.

It’s hard to argue against success. There can be no doubt that Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have been (and continue to be) enormously successful and growing religions. You merely assert that non-Christian religions do not lead to unity with God. You’ve not shown how you could possibly know that.

Nor have you shown how you could possibly know that it isn’t true.

But I believe that God has established two religions. The original Judaic religion, which no longer exists. And the Catholic Faith.

I do not personally know many Muslims, but every Buddhist I’ve known has certainly exemplified a sense of holiness, equanimity and compassion.

I’m glad you think so. I won’t argue with you. But if you’re posing as the judge of their eternal souls, you are making a mistake.

Again, it’s hard to argue against the success of these religions. How in the world do you account for these growing “products of Satan” that have literally billions of adherents?

Have you ever read in Scripture?

Luke 18:8…Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

And also:

2 Corinthians 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

And finally,

Matthew 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Do you know how many people will be saved in the end? And how many people will not? I don’t. I just make sure that I cling to the Teachings of Jesus Christ as brought to us by the Catholic Church.