Do angels exist?

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using this definition:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angel
a spiritual being superior to humans in power and intelligence ; especially : one in the lowest rank in the celestial hierarchy

Do you believe that angels exist? If so, why?

Currently my opinion is that they almost definitely do not exist. They are, imo, similar to leprechauns, unicorns and fairies in terms of existence. I was wondering if you guys have any arguments or evidence to persuade my opinion.

Feel free to use a different definition if you think I am talking about the wrong thing.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
I am no theologian or angelologist, so anything I say has to be taken with that knowledge.

I have thought, not alone, that perhaps angels are like “conscious principles”. We all know, more or less, how complex the universe is. Much of it is impenetrable and will likely always remain so. But men are resolute in decreeing that there are certain “laws” or “rules” of the universe. Of necessity, they are complex; complex well beyond our full understanding, though we do gain bits and pieces of knowledge here and there. Atoms work in certain ways, we believe, and follow certain laws. But then, some particles or bits of energy don’t seem to, yet ultimately we find ways of explaining their behavior too. We find ourselves baffled by black holes and strings and “branes” and all that, and rightly, because they definitely seem beyond any kind of observation, let alone experimentation and replciation.

And we readily accept the notion that there are surely other intelligent beings in the universe. We don’t quibble with that idea at all. Nor do we discount the notion that there might be some that are perhaps so far beyond us that we could comprehend them very little; in the same sort of way that a snail can’t comprehend Shakespeare. We wince a bit at the idea that some of them might have some kind of at least latent governance role, if only to sometime visit here to disarm us foolish mortals or teach us new things. But then, we think, well, maybe that’s also possible.

But when it comes to really massive governance; say, that there could be a “keeper of the laws of nuclear physics” or even a “conscious compendium of the laws of nuclear physics”, we shrink back. Too big a job, and such creatures would seem, well, too big themselves. Like alternate universes (which some of accept even so) too far beyond our probing to fully accept.

So, okay, I can’t prove it, but if angels really exist and if they are the servants of God in some way we can’t even really quite grasp (and angelology does tell us they are that) and have incorporeal natures like spooks or, well, abstract principles, I tend to think of them in that way.

If they exist and if they are even remotely close to what the various angelologists say they must surely be in some respects, their “names”, e.g., Gabriel, Michael, are just expressions of concepts in ways we can comprehend. But their true “names” would be their natures. And so, if an angel told us its “name”, all at once and in full, and if it really penetrated our minds, our synapses would blow under the load.

A long way from leprechauns and tooth fairies.

I know you won’t be persuaded and, as I said, I can’t prove it. But neither can you tell me what a “brane” looks like, if it can even be seen, and you can’t reach in and pull anything out of the eleventh dimension (in which many physicists believe) either.

So here we are, at loggerheads. I believe they exist and are magnificent far beyond our comprehension, and I believe it out of faith, because I have been told about them and believe the Teller exists and tells the truth. You believe something else.
 
Do you believe that angels exist? If so, why?

Currently my opinion is that they almost definitely do not exist. They are, imo, similar to leprechauns, unicorns and fairies in terms of existence. I was wondering if you guys have any arguments or evidence to persuade my opinion.

Feel free to use a different definition if you think I am talking about the wrong thing.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Are you really Shinto?
 
There are many testimonials of clear actions of angels in people’s lives. Angels are believed in across cultures, across religions, across the ages. Mankind has always known of the existence of angels.

Many people have been saved by angels… suddenly warned against doing something very dangerous… that they did not see… and a moment later, there it happened.

Angels are simply spiritual beings, which mean that they are not visible creatures, but are creatures of mind and intellect. If you could imagine that your consciousness was free of your body, and able to go anywhere you thought you could go and speak to anyone you thought to, that would be something like what it would be to be a spiritual being without a body. But angels are much different from us, they are after a fashion, quite alien to us in their interior lives.

There are angels and demons. Many people testify across cultures and religions to the existence of demons. One reads about them regularly enough in the newspapers of today, where despite dismissive commentary from those who do not believe in what they fear or have succumbed to unknowingly, they are testified to in their actions. Whenever one reads of the worst of crimes and killers, demons and voices in the mind are spoken of.

I know angels exist. I do not know this as a matter of religious belief because I ‘have faith’. I have simply encountered them, like I encounter cars, trucks, trees, and sunlight, and recognized their intervention in the world. Many people have encountered angels and know their existence in this fashion.

So, to believe angels do not exist, well, it is simply to dismiss a great deal of the open and honest testimony of mankind due to a certain cultural indoctrination and predisposition for the most part. A person who pursues knowledge of God will eventually, if he keeps at it, some way or another begin to recognize spiritual intervention in life. 🙂
 
There are many testimonials of clear actions of angels in people’s lives. Angels are believed in across cultures, across religions, across the ages. Mankind has always known of the existence of angels.

Many people have been saved by angels… suddenly warned against doing something very dangerous… that they did not see… and a moment later, there it happened.

Angels are simply spiritual beings, which mean that they are not visible creatures, but are creatures of mind and intellect. If you could imagine that your consciousness was free of your body, and able to go anywhere you thought you could go and speak to anyone you thought to, that would be something like what it would be to be a spiritual being without a body. But angels are much different from us, they are after a fashion, quite alien to us in their interior lives.

There are angels and demons. Many people testify across cultures and religions to the existence of demons. One reads about them regularly enough in the newspapers of today, where despite dismissive commentary from those who do not believe in what they fear or have succumbed to unknowingly, they are testified to in their actions. Whenever one reads of the worst of crimes and killers, demons and voices in the mind are spoken of.

I know angels exist. I do not know this as a matter of religious belief because I ‘have faith’. I have simply encountered them, like I encounter cars, trucks, trees, and sunlight, and recognized their intervention in the world. Many people have encountered angels and know their existence in this fashion.
The belief of many people says nothing about the truth value of a proposition.

Do you have any evidence for the claims you have made?

How do you encounter an angel like you would encounter a car?
So, to believe angels do not exist, well, it is simply to dismiss a great deal of the open and honest testimony of mankind due to a certain cultural indoctrination and predisposition for the most part. A person who pursues knowledge of God will eventually, if he keeps at it, some way or another begin to recognize spiritual intervention in life. 🙂
I do not believe that angels do not exist, I believe that it is unlikely that angels do exist.
 
The belief of many people says nothing about the truth value of a proposition.

Do you have any evidence for the claims you have made?

How do you encounter an angel like you would encounter a car?

I do not believe that angels do not exist, I believe that it is unlikely that angels do exist.
It is simple. I will give you my personal testimony on this matter.

One day I picked up something that is called a chaplet. It is a series of prayers, normally prayed on beads. I did not have the beads, I simply found the prayers, like most people would, surfing the Internet.

The prayers are called the ‘St. Chaplet of St. Michael’. I prayed these prayers for awhile, because they had a history, with spiritual promises attached to them. They promised that the angels would be at your side if you prayed the chaplet.

So I prayed the chaplet, and went about my business. Then one day, something that had been eating at me for awhile, gnawed at me a great deal. Here I was praying this chaplet of St. Michael, where according to the revelation given with it, angels would be at your side assisting you. But here I was, a person who certainly didn’t need so many angels assisting me. In fact, they would certainly be far more useful elsewhere. And yet here was this promise attached to the chaplet, and I expected they would be lived up to because promises are promises after all.

Well, it upset me that simply because I had a tendency to pray numerous devotions with promises attached to them, that perhaps I was taking advantage of them too greatly and wasting God’s time and graces better spent elsewhere, simply because He would keep His word. The idea of nine choirs of angels wasting time with me was quite troublesome to me at that time.

So, after mass I went up to the altar and prayed a prayer that God would take back all his angels, let them do whatever they wanted. The promises were not binding on God to keep or not, as He desired.

Well, I finished offering them back up to God and stood up. As I was walking back down the aisle to leave the church a woman came up to me and said, I paraphrase because it has been a few years, “Pardon me. The woman down the in the back of the church would like to speak to you. Would you come with me?”

Well, I said, certainly I would, surprised. I walked down to the back of the church and a woman sat there in a wheelchair. I learned she had MS. She spoke a little to me, trying to work around to telling me something without troubling me, and then she said, “I was told to give you this.” and she gave me a handful of beads. I looked at them and asked her what they were. There was a beautiful scent to them, like perfume but I could not place it.

She said they were the beads called the, ‘Chaplet of St. Michael’.

And that they were for me especially, most definitely. God wanted me to have them. I was surprised, and listened to her for a little while, then I told her what I had done a few moments before up at the sanctuary. So we spoke awhile, and I learned more than one thing, for this woman had seen angels, the Lord, and Mary for quite a long time in her life and had some things that I needed to hear.

And that about wraps up my story. Now, I will tell you that the Chaplet of St. Michael is not a very common devotion, it is not like the rosary. And I will tell you there is no one on earth who had any ability to know what I was praying there that day, or that I prayed that Chaplet – not a soul on earth knew.

But that woman was told to give it to the unworthy me. The angels knew. God knew. These are facts. Not something a person can deny.

So angels are like trees, rocks, the good earth. They exist. I cannot doubt they exist. This is one story. There are thousands of others. 🙂

Each person on this earth has a guardian angel, who has been within him from the beginning. That angel is so close to that person that he probably thinks, if he does not know about angels, and how they influence in our minds and hearts, that the angel, it is his own self.
 
I am no theologian or angelologist, so anything I say has to be taken with that knowledge.

I have thought, not alone, that perhaps angels are like “conscious principles”. We all know, more or less, how complex the universe is. Much of it is impenetrable and will likely always remain so. But men are resolute in decreeing that there are certain “laws” or “rules” of the universe. Of necessity, they are complex; complex well beyond our full understanding, though we do gain bits and pieces of knowledge here and there. Atoms work in certain ways, we believe, and follow certain laws. But then, some particles or bits of energy don’t seem to, yet ultimately we find ways of explaining their behavior too. We find ourselves baffled by black holes and strings and “branes” and all that, and rightly, because they definitely seem beyond any kind of observation, let alone experimentation and replciation.

And we readily accept the notion that there are surely other intelligent beings in the universe. We don’t quibble with that idea at all. Nor do we discount the notion that there might be some that are perhaps so far beyond us that we could comprehend them very little; in the same sort of way that a snail can’t comprehend Shakespeare. We wince a bit at the idea that some of them might have some kind of at least latent governance role, if only to sometime visit here to disarm us foolish mortals or teach us new things. But then, we think, well, maybe that’s also possible.

But when it comes to really massive governance; say, that there could be a “keeper of the laws of nuclear physics” or even a “conscious compendium of the laws of nuclear physics”, we shrink back. Too big a job, and such creatures would seem, well, too big themselves. Like alternate universes (which some of accept even so) too far beyond our probing to fully accept.
Your first two paragraphs I’m vaguely ok with, but I don’t know what the hell you are talking about with “massive governance”. It comes out of nowhere and does not follow your previous two paragraphs. As far as I can tell, you are saying “God exists, but we don’t want to mention it”, with no supporting arguments.
So, okay, I can’t prove it, but if angels really exist and if they are the servants of God in some way we can’t even really quite grasp (and angelology does tell us they are that) and have incorporeal natures like spooks or, well, abstract principles, I tend to think of them in that way.
ok
If they exist and if they are even remotely close to what the various angelologists say they must surely be in some respects,
An angelologist is a serious profession?!? 😃 :rotfl::hypno:
their “names”, e.g., Gabriel, Michael, are just expressions of concepts in ways we can comprehend.
how do you know this?
But their true “names” would be their natures.
how do you know this?
And so, if an angel told us its “name”, all at once and in full, and if it really penetrated our minds, our synapses would blow under the load.
how do you know this?
A long way from leprechauns and tooth fairies.
I know you won’t be persuaded and, as I said, I can’t prove it. But neither can you tell me what a “brane” looks like, if it can even be seen, and you can’t reach in and pull anything out of the eleventh dimension (in which many physicists believe) either.
So here we are, at loggerheads. I believe they exist and are magnificent far beyond our comprehension, and I believe it out of faith, because I have been told about them and believe the Teller exists and tells the truth. You believe something else.
I don’t know what a “brane” is in M-theory. You are setting up a false comparison, claiming that angels and branes are comparable, when they are completely different things.
 
Your first two paragraphs I’m vaguely ok with, but I don’t know what the hell you are talking about with “massive governance”. It comes out of nowhere and does not follow your previous two paragraphs. As far as I can tell, you are saying “God exists, but we don’t want to mention it”, with no supporting arguments. Actualy, I wasn’t, but in this context it doesn’t matter. I’m not trying to persuade you of anything.

ok

An angelologist is a serious profession?!? 😃 :rotfl::hypno: ** Did I say that? No. Among theologians, some have made a study of the subject of angels. The subject of angels is called “angelology”. Possibly I coined the word “angelologist” as a short way of expressing it. **

how do you know this?

how do you know this?

how do you know this?

I don’t know what a “brane” is in M-theory. You are setting up a false comparison, claiming that angels and branes are comparable, when they are completely different things.
I didn’t say angels and 'branes" (membranes) are the same thing. Nor did I say they are comparable except in the sense that it seems likely we are inherently incapable of fully understanding either of them because we are, it seems, inherently incapable of subjecting them to our senses. Consequently, both are likely to remain as untested concepts.

Again, I think you misunderstood my intent. You seemed to be asking in what way people understood angels, and I responded. It was not my intent, and I said so, to get involved in an argument with you about whether angels exist. If one has faith in things we cannot perceive with our senses, no proof is required. If one does not, no proof will suffice.

I have no idea what all you believe in and what all you don’t (excepting angels). Possibly you are skeptical in all things. I don’t know, and am not greatly interested in finding out. I did want, however, to point out that there are many things deemed “natural” that many believe in, which they have never seen and will never see, and will likely never be “proved”. Some are pretty fantastic. Yet, as soon as anything spiritual or religious enters into the mix, acceptance stops. It is just one of those things people sometimes do, for whatever reasons they do it. I do not know what your reasons are, or the boundaries of your skepticism, and am not asking. I did not come here to fight with you, but simply to talk about the subject because I think it’s interesting. But since you now seem to have opened this thread in order to throw down a “prove to me that angels exist” gauntlet, something I (naively) did not see before, I do not find that interesting at all. Someone else might.
 
using this definition:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angel
a spiritual being superior to humans in power and intelligence ; especially : one in the lowest rank in the celestial hierarchy

Do you believe that angels exist? If so, why?

Currently my opinion is that they almost definitely do not exist. They are, imo, similar to leprechauns, unicorns and fairies in terms of existence. I was wondering if you guys have any arguments or evidence to persuade my opinion.

Feel free to use a different definition if you think I am talking about the wrong thing.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
So which Shinto form are you part of?
 
Mortimer Adler referred to angels as “minds without bodies,” but they are more than that. They are spiritual beings having the faculties of intellect and will, as do we, but with a different mode of knowing which does not involve sense perception.

Three angels are named in the scriptures: Gabriel, Raphael, and Michael. It’s noteworth that all three names end in “-el” as EL is an ancient name for God, and the names have a meaning which has to do with God, such as “the power of God.”

I’m sure that Gabriel and other angels are quite secure in their own existence, whether we believe in them or not.
 
using this definition:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angel
a spiritual being superior to humans in power and intelligence ; especially : one in the lowest rank in the celestial hierarchy

Do you believe that angels exist? If so, why?

Currently my opinion is that they almost definitely do not exist. They are, imo, similar to leprechauns, unicorns and fairies in terms of existence. I was wondering if you guys have any arguments or evidence to persuade my opinion.

Feel free to use a different definition if you think I am talking about the wrong thing.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
yes Angels exist. They are mentioned in the Bible by what the heck is shinto??? not familiar with it. Is it some kind of new thing??
 
yes Angels exist. They are mentioned in the Bible by what the heck is shinto??? not familiar with it. Is it some kind of new thing??
Shinto is quite old, actually. It and Buddhism are the prevailing religions in Japan, to the extent either is really a religion and to the extent Japanese really believe in either one. It is otherwise difficult to generalize about it because it’s not a “religion” in the sense Christians think of “religion”.

Shinto is something like “ancestor worship”, but not precisely. It posits a kind of semi-feudal order in the afterlife. So, if one owes reverence to one’s grandfather here, one owes it after the grandfather’s death and after one’s own death. In Japan, Shinto has historically waxed and waned versus Buddhism, depending on the nature of the society and particularly of the Emperor. During the “warrior eras”, Shinto tended to prevail. During peaceful eras, Buddhism tended to prevail. The emperor is the head of the religion there and is not exactly a “god”, but is similar to one since all reverence and allegiance flows from the commoner to the lord to the emperor, both now and in the afterlife. Most adherents to Shinto, I understand, do not actually believe in an afterlife in the Christian sense. It’s more like a thing where one does one’s duty based on one’s station in life and is remembered well for having done it. That includes the emperor, who has a duty to make an annual visit to the shrine of Amaterasu at a place called Ise and there view and revere the sacred objects of Amaterasu. One is a mirror. I don’t recall what the others are. Emperors, to this day, still do that.

Japanese Shinto contains elements of other, older religions. It posits a goddess named Amaterasu who created the Japanese islands. Supposedly, the emperors are descended from Amaterasu. But I don’t think many Japanese believe in the reality of either thing. It’s more just a sense of “being Japanese”.

It isn’t a religion in the same sort of way that Christians think about religion. It isn’t organized. It has its beliefs and legends. It has its practices. It’s not terribly demanding except in a social order kind of way. But it’s also a “pick and choose” kind of thing. And while it is sort of theoretically the national religion of Japan, and is deeply embedded in the culture, not many actually believe in any of it except as a cultural thing.
 
Shinto is quite old, actually. It and Buddhism are the prevailing religions in Japan, to the extent either is really a religion and to the extent Japanese really believe in either one. It is otherwise difficult to generalize about it because it’s not a “religion” in the sense Christians think of “religion”.

Shinto is something like “ancestor worship”, but not precisely. It posits a kind of semi-feudal order in the afterlife. So, if one owes reverence to one’s grandfather here, one owes it after the grandfather’s death and after one’s own death. In Japan, Shinto has historically waxed and waned versus Buddhism, depending on the nature of the society and particularly of the Emperor. During the “warrior eras”, Shinto tended to prevail. During peaceful eras, Buddhism tended to prevail. The emperor is the head of the religion there and is not exactly a “god”, but is similar to one since all reverence and allegiance flows from the commoner to the lord to the emperor, both now and in the afterlife. Most adherents to Shinto, I understand, do not actually believe in an afterlife in the Christian sense. It’s more like a thing where one does one’s duty based on one’s station in life and is remembered well for having done it. That includes the emperor, who has a duty to make an annual visit to the shrine of Amaterasu at a place called Ise and there view and revere the sacred objects of Amaterasu. One is a mirror. I don’t recall what the others are. Emperors, to this day, still do that.

Japanese Shinto contains elements of other, older religions. It posits a goddess named Amaterasu who created the Japanese islands. Supposedly, the emperors are descended from Amaterasu. But I don’t think many Japanese believe in the reality of either thing. It’s more just a sense of “being Japanese”.

It isn’t a religion in the same sort of way that Christians think about religion. It isn’t organized. It has its beliefs and legends. It has its practices. It’s not terribly demanding except in a social order kind of way. But it’s also a “pick and choose” kind of thing. And while it is sort of theoretically the national religion of Japan, and is deeply embedded in the culture, not many actually believe in any of it except as a cultural thing.
thank you for explaining this to me.
 
using this definition:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angel
a spiritual being superior to humans in power and intelligence ; especially : one in the lowest rank in the celestial hierarchy

Do you believe that angels exist? If so, why?

Currently my opinion is that they almost definitely do not exist. They are, imo, similar to leprechauns, unicorns and fairies in terms of existence. I was wondering if you guys have any arguments or evidence to persuade my opinion.

Feel free to use a different definition if you think I am talking about the wrong thing.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Yes.​

As for being “similar to leprechauns, unicorns and fairies in terms of existence”, there is a difference: angels are numinous. Fairies & leprechauns are uncanny - which is not the same.
 
Wasmit: Don’t you believe in Kami? How is that altogether different from belief in angels? Certainly all of your objections apply to your own beliefs. :confused:

Peace and God bless!
 
using this definition:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angel
a spiritual being superior to humans in power and intelligence ; especially : one in the lowest rank in the celestial hierarchy

Do you believe that angels exist? If so, why?

Currently my opinion is that they almost definitely do not exist. They are, imo, similar to leprechauns, unicorns and fairies in terms of existence. I was wondering if you guys have any arguments or evidence to persuade my opinion.

Feel free to use a different definition if you think I am talking about the wrong thing.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
I did not think there was such a thing as a Shinto and yet here you are. 😉 😃

As to angels and the fallen angels called demons, I know they exist. I have been allowed to see a demon and banish it from my house.
 
Shinto is quite old, actually. It and Buddhism are the prevailing religions in Japan,
-snip-

Japanese Shinto contains elements of other, older religions. It posits a goddess named Amaterasu who created the Japanese islands. Supposedly, the emperors are descended from Amaterasu. But I don’t think many Japanese believe in the reality of either thing. It’s more just a sense of “being Japanese”.

It isn’t a religion in the same sort of way that Christians think about religion. It isn’t organized. It has its beliefs and legends. It has its practices. It’s not terribly demanding except in a social order kind of way. But it’s also a “pick and choose” kind of thing. And while it is sort of theoretically the national religion of Japan, and is deeply embedded in the culture, not many actually believe in any of it except as a cultural thing.
But - Shinto posits the existence of spiritual entities associated with various objects, places and forces in the natural world, and so if the OP were actually Shinto that might be a starting place for the discussion of angels.
 
But - Shinto posits the existence of spiritual entities associated with various objects, places and forces in the natural world, and so if the OP were actually Shinto that might be a starting place for the discussion of angels.
I don’t believe the OP is actually Shinto.
 
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