Well… we do have Catholic singing Lutheran Hymns in church and their goodly priest wear Presbyterian clerical collars.
(Heh-heh-heh). Today CAF. Tomorrow, the internet.Well… we do have Catholic singing Lutheran Hymns in church and their goodly priest wear Presbyterian clerical collars.
God save us…the ‘motley’ is catching
AP? You mean “AS” abbreviated for apostolic succession? Of course they have. Catholicism does not regard Lutheran ministers to be the recipients of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. That may be too blunt a way of putting it (my apologies if so), but clarity is called for here.
And that’s assuming that Apostolicae Curae is good history and theology. There are those of us that think it is not, and who believe that the Church of England, for all its faults, has always preserved the historic succession of bishops right back to the Apostolic church via Archbishop Parker.
Oops, I meant AS. I think AP is a news service. But can you cite where Roman Catholics deny the Apostolic Succession of Lutherans?AP? You mean “AS” abbreviated for apostolic succession? Of course they have. Catholicism does not regard Lutheran ministers to be the recipients of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. That may be too blunt a way of putting it (my apologies if so), but clarity is called for here.
Maybe you meant “Old Catholics” in that last line. An interesting argument can be made in that direction and Rome has studiously ignored it for an embarrassingly long time now. But nobody ever argued that Jesus promised the church would teach infallibly and in a timely manner!
Okay. I am confused. Anglicans have Apostolic Succession by their full communion with Lutherans? This is something of which I was not aware. My understanding is that it is the Anglican Church that it in communion with the Old Catholics, not the Lutherans. Hey, you learn something everyday.
Not all Anglicans, but ECUSA is in communion with ELCA. Other Lutherans and Anglicans (whom I understand to be very conservative) are not.Okay. I am confused. Anglicans have Apostolic Succession by their full communion with Lutherans? This is something of which I was not aware. My understanding is that it is the Anglican Church that it in communion with the Old Catholics, not the Lutherans. Hey, you learn something everyday.
I’m lousy with citations, so I’ll have to appeal to others for a specific classification where Lutheranism was determined to be an “ecclesial community” rather than a “church” (properly defined). But here’s a catechism quote that lays out the principles more charitably than I can:
It is complicated. For example, Lutherans in north America did not have episcopacy until bishops from the Episcopal Church [Anglican Church in Canada] and Lutheran bishops from Europe re-established the episcopal ministries of bishop/ priest/ deacon. Anglicans in Europe joined the Provoo Communion with Lutheran Sees from Scandinavian countries. For example, the line of Apostolic Succession is uninterrupted in Sweden/ Finland, etc. and now that line extends to the Church of England.Okay. I am confused. Anglicans have Apostolic Succession by their full communion with Lutherans? This is something of which I was not aware. My understanding is that it is the Anglican Church that it in communion with the Old Catholics, not the Lutherans. Hey, you learn something everyday.
Thanks. I have a better picture of what is going on now. So the liberal branches of both the Lutherans and the Anglicans have joined forces and then claim succession through the Old Catholic Church. Do I have that right? My question is whether or not the Lutherans are in full communion with the Old Catholics?
Anglicans have been, since the Agreement of Bonn, in 1932. Old Catholics of Utrecht, that is. And with the PNCC from 1946, to a point in time, I forget, late 70s.
But is this where Anglicans claim succession? From the Old Catholics? Did they not claim it prior to 1932? I’m trying to piece together the relationship between Lutherans, Anglicans and Old Catholics as far as the claim to apostolic succession and my knowledge of these events is abysmal.
It is not a matter of “liberal branches” unless one is only referring to the ELCA and Episcopalians in the U.S and perhaps the Lutheran Church of Canada and the Anglican Church of Canada where they even held joint assemblies this summer. These full communions were necessary because of the Anglican insistence that episcopacy be the standard in north America. But neither Lutherans nor Episcopalians had Apostolic Succession until the ‘mother churches’ in Europe participated in the laying on of hands at ordinations/ consecrations.
Some Anglicans (you remember motley), point to the logic in the joint episcopal consecrations since 1932, as an end run around Apostolicae Curae, per the logic in Ott, p. 458. Others discount Apostolicae Curae, ab initio. AC means that all RCs should affirm that Anglican orders are null and void. Anglicans may have a different opinion of the matter (and the intent, and the form).