Do Anglicans have to accept female clergy?

[GloriousOrder]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

My question is: do people such as myself have to accept gay clergy and female clergy, joining Anglicanism? I am recently disturbed by the moral issue of authority and ‘holiness’ attributed to the Pope, and may have to go Anglican. Everything about my belief is Catholic except the Pope… I just can’t accept Papal Infallibility or the “Vicar of Christ” status, so Anglicanism seems the next on the ‘list’ of truth. It has a very venerable structure, and does not force its members to believe every last petty triviality.

Now, is Anglicanism really this way? Can I, an Anglican, tell a female “bishop” to her face that I believe her ordination totally invalid and blasphemous, and not be ex-communicated myself? Would the Communion allow me to remain an Anglican, or would I be booted? I absolutely refuse to accept the C.o.E.'s wrong-headed proclamations, yet I can’t be Catholic… and I want to be in a traditional faith, with altar, incense, organ, and extreme devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[catharina]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

My question is: do people such as myself have to accept gay clergy and female clergy, joining Anglicanism? I am recently disturbed by the moral issue of authority and ‘holiness’ attributed to the Pope, and may have to go Anglican. Everything about my belief is Catholic except the Pope… I just can’t accept Papal Infallibility or the “Vicar of Christ” status, so Anglicanism seems the next on the ‘list’ of truth. It has a very venerable structure, and does not force its members to believe every last petty triviality.

Now, is Anglicanism really this way? Can I, an Anglican, tell a female “bishop” to her face that I believe her ordination totally invalid and blasphemous, and not be ex-communicated myself? Would the Communion allow me to remain an Anglican, or would I be booted? I absolutely refuse to accept the C.o.E.'s wrong-headed proclamations, yet I can’t be Catholic… and I want to be in a traditional faith, with altar, incense, organ, and extreme devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ.

This might be the last place you’d want to ask that question.
Many Anglicans come into communion with the Catholic
Church over the very issues you named:
“female” clergy and “gay marriages.”

Maybe you can ask some Anglicans
on one of their own sites?

They should be able to tell you a great deal.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I do not see how Anglicanism can be “next on the list” when they lack Apostolic authority.

Have you looked into the Orthodox Churches?

 

[catharina]

I do not see how Anglicanism can be “next on the list” when they lack Apostolic authority.

Have you looked into the Orthodox Churches?

Not to mention the “Anglican switch”
to the two “revisions” already mentioned!

 

[GloriousOrder]

Have you looked into the Orthodox Churches?

I have, and their dogmatic mysticism and antagonism for St. Thomas Aquinas bothers me. Hooker, Lauds, and (to some degree) even Cranmer at least respected Thomism and rational thought. Orthodoxy doesn’t come anywhere close to my worldview. It seems totally foreign: not only culturally, but philosophically. I am Western, it must be said…

 

[angelic06]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

My question is: do people such as myself have to accept gay clergy and female clergy, joining Anglicanism? I am recently disturbed by the moral issue of authority and ‘holiness’ attributed to the Pope, and may have to go Anglican. Everything about my belief is Catholic except the Pope… I just can’t accept Papal Infallibility or the “Vicar of Christ” status, so Anglicanism seems the next on the ‘list’ of truth. It has a very venerable structure, and does not force its members to believe every last petty triviality.

Now, is Anglicanism really this way? Can I, an Anglican, tell a female “bishop” to her face that I believe her ordination totally invalid and blasphemous, and not be ex-communicated myself? Would the Communion allow me to remain an Anglican, or would I be booted? I absolutely refuse to accept the C.o.E.'s wrong-headed proclamations, yet I can’t be Catholic… and I want to be in a traditional faith, with altar, incense, organ, and extreme devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ.

What the Catholic Church offers (and yes, I will say this is an offering to the people, a gift, not merely an obligation) is a teaching authority—somebody to teach you that there really is truth as such, not just your truth and my truth----absent this, you can believe anything you want, but you have no credible authority to tell you why it is true. There is much I like about Anglicans, including their beautiful liturgies (I’ve seen some on YouTube, though I’ve admittedly never been to one live). However, theologically, they are in a state of chaos. It is basically, “I believe x is true because I want to believe x is true…there is no teaching authority to say that x is true”.

Even in the secular realm, we have a Supreme Court in the U.S. to give its interpretation on the law, which is changeable in one generation to the next. If not, we could have legal chaos. And so should not the same thing exist in divine truths, as opposed to merely having everyone be his or her own magisterium?

I’m not here to pressure into converting to the Catholic Church if you do not believe you can do so in good conscience. But I can give you some considerations to make.

Above all, pray about whatever you believe the Holy Ghost is bringing you, and Godspeed.

 

[JonNC]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

My question is: do people such as myself have to accept gay clergy and female clergy, joining Anglicanism? I am recently disturbed by the moral issue of authority and ‘holiness’ attributed to the Pope, and may have to go Anglican. Everything about my belief is Catholic except the Pope… I just can’t accept Papal Infallibility or the “Vicar of Christ” status, so Anglicanism seems the next on the ‘list’ of truth. It has a very venerable structure, and does not force its members to believe every last petty triviality.

Now, is Anglicanism really this way? Can I, an Anglican, tell a female “bishop” to her face that I believe her ordination totally invalid and blasphemous, and not be ex-communicated myself? Would the Communion allow me to remain an Anglican, or would I be booted? I absolutely refuse to accept the C.o.E.'s wrong-headed proclamations, yet I can’t be Catholic… and I want to be in a traditional faith, with altar, incense, organ, and extreme devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you could seek out an Anglican communion that does not ordain women. I know the ACA (TAC) does not, though they may be heading for the Ordinariate. Another direction might be PNCC. There are also, without trying to proselytize, traditional Lutheran synods - LCMS, WELS - that do not ordain women, etc., as well.

Jon

 

[GloriousOrder]

There is much I like about Anglicans, including their beautiful liturgies (I’ve seen some on YouTube, though I’ve admittedly never been to one live). However, theologically, they are in a state of chaos. It is basically, “I believe x is true because I want to believe x is true…there is no teaching authority to say that x is true”.

Even in the secular realm, we have a Supreme Court in the U.S. to give its interpretation on the law, which is changeable in one generation to the next. If not, we could have legal chaos. And so should not the same thing exist in divine truths, as opposed to merely having everyone be his or her own magisterium?

1. Your honesty is commendable, holy, and excellent.
2. I do not believe the Anglican view is “X truth is my truth, but Y truth may be true for others if they wish”. The Anglican view, rather, seems to be: “one virtuous man may be opposed to a hierarchy of heretical or perhaps evil bishops, for the hierarchy is man-made.” This does not mean that any truth goes, but rather that all men are made free to follow the Truth, who is our Lord.

If bad Catholic bishops take the crowd away from Christ, they can simply invoke their magisterial ‘holiness’ (received at ordination), and ex-communicate the “offenders” for following the Truth. If bad Anglican bishops take the crowd away from Christ, they cannot invoke some sort of innate holiness (received at ordination), to ex-communicate “offenders”, because the Anglican system is acknowledged as man-made for practical purposes. The Archbishop of Canterbury can be dead wrong; what’s more, we can say it to his face and not be judged heretical for disobeying his heresy. Popes are mere men, so the same logic should apply… but apparently it doesn’t, because they’re in some “holy” seat. The greatest saints (Aquinas, Dominic, et. al.) always refused dignities such as these.

I want to be Anglican (now) because it seems that the system allows one conservative to be a conservative when everyone else is wrong. In Catholicism, if your Ordinary is a heretic and shows it, undermining everything about the Church and the faith and applauding abortion, you have no recourse in disagreement. You must sit and take it (he’s a holy bishop, after all). I want to be an Anglican exactly because I believe in absolute truth, which cannot be taken away or reinforced just because some bishop takes it away or affirms it. Many bishops and popes have taught heresy, though later discontinued their heresies when lay theologians reproved them, for example (re. John XXII).

1. It seems Catholic laws and rules and ideals have actually changed over time. Priestly celibacy is constantly called a mere ‘discipline’, but its rigor is applied 100% of the time in the West, since 1215, with a fierce and fiery conviction, as if it had always been the same since Day 1. Rules on the reception of Communion, the species the laity can consume, liturgical practice, indulgences, fasting, and praying have all changed over the centuries. The institution of the Church itself and its government shifts as society permits. How is this solid? How is this unchanging and unbroken?

 

[Cominghome89]

The Catholic Church is unchanging and unbroken in its dogma. The things that you are listing (such as fasting requirements, reception of both species, etc.) are not dogma for a reason. Because different times, cultures and circumstances DO call for different measures. You will learn over time that to be ultra-conservative and to be an orthodox Christian are not the same thing. The Catholic Church is the true authority of Jesus Christ because it contains the deposits of faith, unchanged, that are necessary for our salvation. Married or unmarried priests, Friday fasts, etc are not doctrines. If the Church was not adaptive to a changing culture, it would not reach people throughout 2,000 years of history.

Be thankful that the Catholic Church can change traditions (different from Sacred Traditions). Christ gave authority to the Church so that it could preserve what is important, and its ability to survive throughout 2 millenia of turmoil it itself a tribute to its divine origin.

Think this through before making any leaps into Protestantism. Not so much study about papal infallibility, but really pray about what the Christian faith would be like if there was no Church authority to protect and pass down the fullness of the deposit of Faith for all this time. I understand your issue, popes and bishops are sinners like you and I. They are not protected from sin, they are protected by the Holy Spirit from doctrinal error. Big difference.

In the love of Christ and Mary,
Frank

 

[catharina]

The Catholic Church is unchanging and unbroken in its dogma. The things that you are listing (such as fasting requirements, reception of both species, etc.) are not dogma for a reason. Because different times, cultures and circumstances DO call for different measures. You will learn over time that to be ultra-conservative and to be an orthodox Christian are not the same thing. The Catholic Church is the true authority of Jesus Christ because it contains the deposits of faith, unchanged, that are necessary for our salvation. Married or unmarried priests, Friday fasts, etc are not doctrines. If the Church was not adaptive to a changing culture, it would not reach people throughout 2,000 years of history.

Be thankful that the Catholic Church can change traditions (different from Sacred Traditions). Christ gave authority to the Church so that it could preserve what is important, and its ability to survive throughout 2 millenia of turmoil it itself a tribute to its divine origin.

Think this through before making any leaps into Protestantism. Not so much study about papal infallibility, but really pray about what the Christian faith would be like if there was no Church authority to protect and pass down the fullness of the deposit of Faith for all this time. I understand your issue, popes and bishops are sinners like you and I. They are not protected from sin, they are protected by the Holy Spirit from doctrinal error. Big difference.

In the love of Christ and Mary,
Frank

Beautiful, Frank.
I salute you.

 

[horselvr]

Thank you Frank for this. It is also good for me to see that I was pretty much spot on just the other day when I had this same conversation with an Anglican friend that is considering coming over to the Catholic Church but does not believe the Pope is infallible and actually has little regard for the Pope. I very much stated what you just did. Of course before speaking I asked the Holy Spirit to help form my words.
Thank you again.

 

[GKC]

Perhaps you could seek out an Anglican communion that does not ordain women. I know the ACA (TAC) does not, though they may be heading for the Ordinariate. Another direction might be PNCC. There are also, without trying to proselytize, traditional Lutheran synods - LCMS, WELS - that do not ordain women, etc., as well.

Jon

None of the jurisdictions (ACA, ACC, APCK, EMC, Diocese of the Holy Cross, inter alia) that make what are referred to as Continuing Anglicans attempt to ordain females.

Added: But we assumed the OP has access to such jurisdictions as these.

GKC

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

My question is: do people such as myself have to accept gay clergy and female clergy, joining Anglicanism? I am recently disturbed by the moral issue of authority and ‘holiness’ attributed to the Pope, and may have to go Anglican. Everything about my belief is Catholic except the Pope… I just can’t accept Papal Infallibility or the “Vicar of Christ” status, so Anglicanism seems the next on the ‘list’ of truth. It has a very venerable structure, and does not force its members to believe every last petty triviality.

Now, is Anglicanism really this way? Can I, an Anglican, tell a female “bishop” to her face that I believe her ordination totally invalid and blasphemous, and not be ex-communicated myself? Would the Communion allow me to remain an Anglican, or would I be booted? I absolutely refuse to accept the C.o.E.'s wrong-headed proclamations, yet I can’t be Catholic… and I want to be in a traditional faith, with altar, incense, organ, and extreme devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just two questions: Exactly what do you ‘understand’ the Vicar of Christ to be?

and, Just what do you understand Papal Infallibility to be?

(IOW, do you truly know exactly what it is that you’re objecting to and can you not only tell me accurately what those terms are but exactly why and on what grounds you reject them?)

 

[GKC]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

My question is: do people such as myself have to accept gay clergy and female clergy, joining Anglicanism? I am recently disturbed by the moral issue of authority and ‘holiness’ attributed to the Pope, and may have to go Anglican. Everything about my belief is Catholic except the Pope… I just can’t accept Papal Infallibility or the “Vicar of Christ” status, so Anglicanism seems the next on the ‘list’ of truth. It has a very venerable structure, and does not force its members to believe every last petty triviality.

Now, is Anglicanism really this way? Can I, an Anglican, tell a female “bishop” to her face that I believe her ordination totally invalid and blasphemous, and not be ex-communicated myself? Would the Communion allow me to remain an Anglican, or would I be booted? I absolutely refuse to accept the C.o.E.'s wrong-headed proclamations, yet I can’t be Catholic… and I want to be in a traditional faith, with altar, incense, organ, and extreme devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ.

I notice you mentioned the CoE. If you are in the UK, your options are more limited, it seems to me. Not much presence there of what are known as Continuing Anglicans, as in the US.

But you would not need to fear excommunication in Anglicanism, generally. But if you are looking at the CoE, you are looking in the wrong place, I fear.

GKC

 

[TimothyH]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

Democracy?



-Tim-

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Democracy?



-Tim-

Maybe he means “Democrats”? I mean, the USA itself is not a democracy (it’s a republic).

 

[TimothyH]

Maybe he means “Democrats”? I mean, the USA itself is not a democracy (it’s a republic).

Yea, I thought that but a capital D was used specifically.

Begs questions about how self determination, freedom, etc can be considered non-traditional or otherwise liberal in light of the other ills mentioned such as cursing and conservative dress.

Off topic I suppose but maybe the GloriousOrder can clarify. No bother if not.

-Tim-

 

[bluelake]

Friends,

I am a traditionalist conservative to an almost exaggerated and comical degree. Homosexual acts, female clergy, women in the workplace, men not wearing suit-and-tie out, cursing, public affection between lovers, Democracy, etc. all make me cringe in the depths of my soul. This may be somewhat out of the ordinary in its intensity, but there it is.

My question is: do people such as myself have to accept gay clergy and female clergy, joining Anglicanism? I am recently disturbed by the moral issue of authority and ‘holiness’ attributed to the Pope, and may have to go Anglican. Everything about my belief is Catholic except the Pope… I just can’t accept Papal Infallibility or the “Vicar of Christ” status, so Anglicanism seems the next on the ‘list’ of truth. It has a very venerable structure, and does not force its members to believe every last petty triviality.

Now, is Anglicanism really this way? Can I, an Anglican, tell a female “bishop” to her face that I believe her ordination totally invalid and blasphemous, and not be ex-communicated myself? Would the Communion allow me to remain an Anglican, or would I be booted? I absolutely refuse to accept the C.o.E.'s wrong-headed proclamations, yet I can’t be Catholic… and I want to be in a traditional faith, with altar, incense, organ, and extreme devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bible teaches women are not to have authority over a man. They shoulld not be pastors.

Homosexuals should not refer to themselves as homosexuals if they have repented of this sin.
"As far as the east is from th west, so far He has removed our trangressions from us."Ps 103:12
Would a prostitute continue to call herself this if she has repented? Of course not.

bluelake

 

[TBolt1000T]

Your questions sound a lot like the ones I had a couple of years ago. I backed out of RCIA just before I was to receive the sacraments, because I simply wasn’t ready. It may just be that you’re also not yet ready. I’ve already said a prayer for you, and you should also pray. Praying before the Blessed Sacrament is never a bad idea, that is, if you’re ready for it. Excepting the Real Presence can be a challenge for some people, I know it was for me.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Since you are attending a Catholic church (you say that you say that you are a catechumen), why do not speak to someone (such as the pastor) who is likely to knowledgeable about Church doctrine, including papal infallibility? He may be able to give you a better explanation than we can on the internet. However, I will say that I think that you misunderstand this dogma. For one thing, the Pope cannot in his official capacity say anything to contradict the faith or morals of the Church (i.e. scripture or tradition). You should not give up upon Rome and go to a breakaway camp, especially not one in such a state of spiritual and moral chaos as Canterbury is.