Do animals have any religion?

[sinnerdexter]

If humans are the only creatures on earth that have religion, therefore the rest of the creatures, including bacteria are atheists. Religion separates humans from animals and puts man into a unique category. Atheism connects humans backwards to the animals, since animals don’t have religion.

The apes are atheists.

If atheists will concede that animals do not have religion, this would make humans, who have evolved the religious charisma, to appear one step higher.

 

[LilyM]

Hmm, depends on your definition of religion.

I’d say, since animals have a very strong awareness of and relationships with each other and us, they certainly could have an awareness of and relationship with the God who created them, which can fit the definition of religion.

The Bible speaks of all creation ‘blessing’ (worshipping) God, even inanimate objects and forces of nature, so lends credence to this idea.

 

[AntiTheist]

If humans are the only creatures on earth that have religion, therefore the rest of the creatures, including bacteria are atheists.

A distinction is sometimes made between “explicit atheists” and “implicit atheists.”

Atheism is the lack of a belief in gods. Animals, babies, people who are unable to think for various reasons, etc. could all be considered implicit atheists – that is, implicitly, they lack a belief in god.

But when we have a discussion about atheism here, we are almost always talking about explicit atheism – people who have thought about the question and decided that there is insufficient evidence for them to believe that gods exist.

[quoteIf atheists will concede that animals do not have religion, this would make humans, who have evolved the religious charisma, to appear one step higher.
[/QUOTE] No, it won’t. We already fully admit that humans, unlike other animals, have evolved higher brain functions…in the same way that, for example, the cheetah, unlike other animals, has evolved faster speed.

Along with higher brain functions comes the ability to tell stories and create myths. There’s nothing magical or unexpected there.

 

[tonyrey]

Along with higher brain functions comes the ability to tell stories and create myths. There’s nothing magical or unexpected there.

Along with higher brain functions also come insight, intuition and inspiration, the ability to understand abstract concepts and universal principles, to grasp spiritual truths, to distinguish between good and evil, to appreciate beauty, to create sublime works of art and science, to choose what to believe and how to act, to resist impulses and overcome instincts, to love persons we have never met, to endure torture and to sacrifice our life for them if necessary. Is there nothing unexpected there? Could you have predicted such an outcome if you had been an (imaginary) observer of the Big Bang? Do you attribute it to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes?

 

[sinnerdexter]

Along with higher brain functions also come insight, intuition and inspiration, the ability to understand abstract concepts and universal principles, to grasp spiritual truths, to distinguish between good and evil, to appreciate beauty, to create sublime works of art and science, to choose what to believe and how to act, to resist impulses and overcome instincts, to love persons we have never met, to endure torture and to sacrifice our life for them if necessary. Is there nothing unexpected there? Could you have predicted such an outcome if you had been an (imaginary) observer of the Big Bang? Do you attribute it to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes?

well said

 

[tonyrey]

well said

I was simply elaborating on your statement:

Religion separates humans from animals and puts man into a unique category.

Religion embraces every aspect of life. Darwin’s “descent of man” is really the ascent to God!

 

[cassini]

Hmm, depends on your definition of religion.

I’d say, since animals have a very strong awareness of and relationships with each other and us, they certainly could have an awareness of and relationship with the God who created them, which can fit the definition of religion.

The Bible speaks of all creation ‘blessing’ (worshipping) God, even inanimate objects and forces of nature, so lends credence to this idea.

hmmmmm, yes, I see, sticks and stones with an awareness of God and thus have religion. How come they never taught that at my old Holy Ghost Fathers’ school? Is this post Vatican II theological ‘development’?

 

[AntiTheist]

Is there nothing unexpected there?

It’s not unexpected that higher brain functions would lead to any and all of those things, no.

Could you have predicted such an outcome if you had been an (imaginary) observer of the Big Bang?

According to current models, it might not have been possible to predict the outcome once the universe was set into motion – meaning that even if your god did cause the Big Bang, he couldn’t have predicted intelligent life as a necessary outcome of the Big Bang.

Do you attribute it to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes?

I don’t see any reason to attribute it to purposeful intelligence. Can you provide some evidence that a disembodied intelligence exists that intervenes in nature?

No?

 

[tonyrey]

Along with higher brain functions also come insight, intuition and inspiration, the ability to understand abstract concepts and universal principles, to grasp spiritual truths, to distinguish between good and evil, to appreciate beauty, to create sublime works of art and science, to choose what to believe and how to act, to resist impulses and overcome instincts, to love persons we have never met, to endure torture and to sacrifice our life for them if necessary. Is there nothing unexpected there? Could you have predicted such an outcome if you had been an (imaginary) observer of the Big Bang? Do you attribute it to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes?

It is easy to be “wise” in retrospect without explaining how every aspect of personal activity originated… Biologists agree that the more advanced life became the more improbable it would develop any further…
Do you attribute development to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes?

According to current models, it might not have been possible to predict the outcome once the universe was set into motion – meaning that even if your god did cause the Big Bang, he couldn’t have predicted intelligent life as a necessary outcome of the Big Bang.

You are assuming God is limited by physical events and laws…

I don’t see any reason to attribute it to purposeful intelligence. Can you provide some evidence that a disembodied intelligence exists that intervenes in nature?

No?

Can you provide any evidence that your body is more real than your intangible thoughts, feelings, sensations and decisions? You know your body exists only because you infer its existence from your perceptions. Our mind is our primary datum and sole certainty.

Or do you regard yourself as mindless? And your thoughts are just “a little agitation of the brain”? (Hume) If so they cannot be reliable guide to the nature of reality…

 

[AntiTheist]

Can you provide any evidence that your body is more real than your intangible thoughts, feelings, sensations and decisions?

No. I’m not arguing that claim (nor would I argue that claim). I’m arguing that there is insufficient evidence that any gods exist.

If you have some evidence relevant to that discussion, please feel free to present it.

 

[StrawberryJam]

It is easy to be “wise” in retrospect without explaining how every aspect of personal activity originated… Biologists agree that the more advanced life became the more improbable it would develop any further…
Do you attribute development to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes?

You are assuming God is limited by physical events and laws…

Can you provide any evidence that your body is more real than your intangible thoughts, feelings, sensations and decisions? You know your body exists only because you infer its existence from your perceptions. Our mind is our primary datum and sole certainty.

Or do you regard yourself as mindless? And your thoughts are just “a little agitation of the brain”? (Hume) If so they cannot be reliable guide to the nature of reality…

Reliable guides to the nature of reality. Let me guess which ones you would reccomend?

 

[tonyrey]

Reliable guides to the nature of reality. Let me guess which ones you would recommend?

Yourself and others who appreciate the value of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love!

 

[tonyrey]

Along with higher brain functions also come insight, intuition and inspiration, the ability to understand abstract concepts and universal principles, to grasp spiritual truths, to distinguish between good and evil, to appreciate beauty, to create sublime works of art and science, to choose what to believe and how to act, to resist impulses and overcome instincts, to love persons we have never met, to endure torture and to sacrifice our life for them if necessary. Is there nothing unexpected there? Could you have predicted such an outcome if you had been an (imaginary) observer of the Big Bang? Do you attribute it to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes?

I have presented it already - to which I could add the beauty and exquisite design in nature. The only adequate alternative to blind physical necessity, fortuitous events and purposeless processes is one Supreme Being…

 

[StrawberryJam]

Yourself and others who appreciate the value of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love!

You are far too generous and kind in your response.
I will not hold that against you. But I will offer my hand in a virtual handshake, and offer you my heartfelt thoughts of peace amoung us all.

 

[tonyrey]

Yourself and others who appreciate the value of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love!

Thank you. I’m not exaggerating. Anyone who devotes time and energy to discussing these questions must be concerned about what really matters in life. That unites us…

(As always we are more aware of our differences than what we share.)

 

[sinnerdexter]

Can you provide any evidence that your body is more real than your intangible thoughts, feelings, sensations and decisions?

No. I’m not arguing that claim (nor would I argue that claim). I’m arguing that there is insufficient evidence that any gods exist.

If you have some evidence relevant to that discussion, please feel free to present it.

Which one? The bolded section? You might want to consider reading some Descartes if you haven’t already.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Which one? The bolded section? You might want to consider reading some Descartes if you haven’t already.

I am open to being corrected, but I do not believe that Anti Theist has not read Descartes.
Nor do I believe he was commenting on the bolded.
He was commenting on what he actually said he was commenting on.

 

[sinnerdexter]

I am open to being corrected, but I do not believe that Anti Theist has not read Descartes.
Nor do I believe he was commenting on the bolded.
He was commenting on what he actually said he was commenting on.

Thank you.

 

[tonyrey]

No. I’m not arguing that claim (nor would I argue that claim). I’m arguing that there is insufficient evidence that any gods exist.

In that case why are you an AntiTheist?! If you have no evidence that God does not exist you should be an agnostic rather than an adversary of theism - unless you base your (non)beliefs entirely on prejudice and emotion…

 

[cathdoki]

If humans are the only creatures on earth that have religion, therefore the rest of the creatures, including bacteria are atheists. Religion separates humans from animals and puts man into a unique category. Atheism connects humans backwards to the animals, since animals don’t have religion.

The apes are atheists.

If atheists will concede that animals do not have religion, this would make humans, who have evolved the religious charisma, to appear one step higher.

That logic doesn’t follow. How can you be an atheist if you don’t know there is a God?