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Area_Man
Guest
From a philosophical point of view, is free will exclusive to humans or can animals also possess free will?
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Polycarp1
Guest
I don’t think so at least not in the same way humans with a spiritual soul do. I think they are driven more by senses and instinct.
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judynurse
Guest
I think they have “free will” to the extent that they can choose things, among their limited choices. For instance, a horse can be led to water, cannot be forced to drink, he can choose not to drink, or not be thirsty (but then, he has no faculty for knowing that it will be a couple of days of heat and travel before water will again be available). My dog can choose to bite me rather than lick my hand. Again, this is not true cognitive behavior, but based upon instinct. If he finds that being friendly results in food, he will not bite, especially if he finds out that biting will result in my smacking his nose with my finger and yelling “NO” at him. These are an extremely limited form of “free will”. Animals cannot choose between good and evil, because they cannot understand the concepts. A dog can understand the “stick & carrot” approach, as can most animals, but that’s just reward and punishment for particular behaviors, not free choice, nor is it true understanding. Their choices are governed by a basic instinct to survive and thrive if possible. They cannot go without food to gain a spiritual blessing, because they cannot understand the concept. Nor can they choose to go without food for their own benefit (dieting), as they cannot envision the future good.
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oldgraymare2
Guest
Hi Area Man,
I tend to think like poster Polycarp1 does, where animals act more on instinct and their senses. When I watch my cat, she behaves like her “wild cousins” the lions and tigers do when she goes to eat, for example.
She will pick up one of her toys and carry it over to her food bowl or even her water bowl. That is considered “trying to wash her prey.” I have sometimes found “play mice” in her water bowl.
So, she acts on her instincts many times.
I tend to think like poster Polycarp1 does, where animals act more on instinct and their senses. When I watch my cat, she behaves like her “wild cousins” the lions and tigers do when she goes to eat, for example.
She will pick up one of her toys and carry it over to her food bowl or even her water bowl. That is considered “trying to wash her prey.” I have sometimes found “play mice” in her water bowl.
So, she acts on her instincts many times.
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judynurse
Guest
I agree. And she purrs and rubs your ankle before running to her food dish, because she has learned that this behavior results in food. It is her form of “hunting” for her food. Animals, as I stated above, have very limited choice. Yes, they can “choose” to bite or be friendly, but this is not true choice or “free will”. It results from both instinct and learned behavior. Wolves learn to hunt cooperatively in a group. They also have a very high-order social organization within a pack. But it all is designed for survival of the young and of the species. That is survival, not choice and not “free will”. Animals do what “works” for their well-doing, and the survival of either the individual or the species, they do not “choose” among good or bad choices, only what is working for survival or against survival.Hi Area Man,
I tend to think like poster Polycarp1 does, where animals act more on instinct and their senses. When I watch my cat, she behaves like her “wild cousins” the lions and tigers do when she goes to eat, for example.
She will pick up one of her toys and carry it over to her food bowl or even her water bowl. That is considered “trying to wash her prey.” I have sometimes found “play mice” in her water bowl.
So, she acts on her instincts many times.
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tonyrey
Guest
Animals can act creatively and spontaneously and even sacrifice themselves for others but they don’t have free will because their mental activity is restricted to what they perceive with their senses and they can’t reflect on what they should or shouldn’t do. They act impulsively, instinctively and according to the way they have been trained or conditioned by their environment. They lack pride and malice which often makes them more lovable and trustworthy than persons and when they attack some one they are not responsible for their behaviour.
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judynurse
Guest
So true!! I once went with a friend/acquaintance who had been with an Italian circus troupe all his life (about 6th generations of it) to see the tigers and cheetahs after the show. The trainer let me approach them (they had collars and leashes to restrict them). I was allowed to approach and pet several. When I was ready to leave, the trainer warned me to BACK away, and not make direct eye contact. Reason: turning your back is a signal that you are prey to be attacked. Eye contact: a signal that you are challenging that big cat. So long as you understand their behavior and follow THEIR rules, you can be around them, with caution. I have also been in a cage with 2 full grown wolves being healed of injuries who were wild, not pets. Able to touch the male, the female avoided me, he was curious, friendly and accepting of me, as long as I followed HIS rules of behavior. Didn’t get hurt, didn’t get attacked. Had an expert standing at the cage door coaching me. Not something you want to do on your own. They are animals who follow their own social rules, not human rules or human emotions and thoughts.
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tonyrey
Guest
A fascinating post, Judy!A few months after I arrived in Tanzania I was standing in a LandRover going slowly along a track looking for leopards in the trees when I heard a terrible scream. I looked around and saw an angry elephant charging towards us. The driver accelerated but the track petered out and we came to an abrupt halt. I was sure we were going to be killed, like other tourists who had ventured too close to a herd and been trampled to death. We sat there paralysed with fear not knowing what to do.
The elephant just stood there staring at us as if waiting for us to make a move. It must have realised we just wanted to escape because it turned round and left us unscathed but petrified. I felt ice cold and it took me a quarter of an hour to recover… It was many years ago but I can still see those massive white tusks…
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judynurse
Guest
You approached his/her territory too closely, and there were probably young in the herd, so the elephant (likely a matriarch or mother of a young one) or possibly a bull who was there for breeding with the females, was being protective. Once you stopped, and stayed quiet, you didn’t appear as a threat anymore. I sure hope you drove in a different direction when you left!! Going back toward the herd could have gotten you (and your driver) killed. Approaching wild animals without an expert with you is not a wise idea. Those who study or work with the animals know how to behave and what to do, usually. As one expert told me, though: animals are still individuals. 99% of them will do what that particular type of animal always does around a human presence if you behave correctly. The other 1% will do their “own thing” and attack anyway!
A few months after I arrived in Tanzania I was standing in a LandRover going slowly along a track looking for leopards in the trees when I heard a terrible scream. I looked around and saw an angry elephant charging towards us. The driver accelerated but the track petered out and we came to an abrupt halt. I was sure we were going to be killed, like other tourists who had ventured too close to a herd and been trampled to death. We sat there paralysed with fear not knowing what to do.
The elephant just stood there staring at us as if waiting for us to make a move. It must have realised we just wanted to escape because it turned round and left us unscathed but petrified. I felt ice cold and it took me a quarter of an hour to recover… It was many years ago but I can still see those massive white tusks…
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
Sort of reminds me of an incident on TV a couple of years ago. A medium size white pointer shark had somehow managed to beach itself on a rock, and a couple of blokes in a boat were trying to help it back into the water.
While this is going on, and being filmed by a news crew, some comedian in the background yelled out, “Hop in mate, and give him a push!”
The bloke in the boat turned around and looked at the speaker like he was an idiot.
While this is going on, and being filmed by a news crew, some comedian in the background yelled out, “Hop in mate, and give him a push!”
The bloke in the boat turned around and looked at the speaker like he was an idiot.
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tonyrey
Guest
There are so many trees in Lake Manyara National Park it is sometimes impossible to know how close you are to a herd of elephants. Even experienced guides have had narrow escapes but if we’re not prepared to take risks we miss opportunities that make life worth living. In retrospect I took too many and would have been killed if I hadn’t been preserved for some reason…
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judynurse
Guest
He certainly was an idiot! You don’t help a shark by getting into the water with him, especially if he’s already upset!
Saw a similar one on tv that happened in California. Shark got beached. (smaller “nurse” shark"). Professionals were trying to refloat it into the water, using ropes from boats. One joker went up to the shark’s mouth and grinned at the camera & stuck his hand in the shark’s mouth. Lost hand, of course. Some idiots just don’t know what common sense is around wild animals. Even professional guides or divers respect the animals they are around or studying. Never decide that an animal is so “cute” you can take liberties with them. Even “cute” little animals can maim or kill – especially when a human invades their territory or gets too close and scares them & provokes protective reflexes/instincts. Even in the “tame” forests in the US, people get killed every year because they want to watch or feed the bears! Feeding a bear is not doing the bear a favor – they lose the natural fear of humans learned from centuries of experience and decide the human is a larger meal than the piece of food in the person’s hand! Stupid. The only animal I’m truly afraid of in the US is the bear – any type: black/brown bears or grizzly bear. Particularly grizzly bears, they are tempermental and NOT cuddly. A bear cub is rarely an orphan if you see it, usually Mama bear will try (& often succeed) in killing you for getting near her cub! Hard to see them in the forest, too.
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Bob_Crowley
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What does bemuse me is how God makes very complicated creatures which ultimately do quite simple things.
Take our dog, Sputnik. If I were to go into Sputnik’s physiology, right down to the cellular and molecular level, I would be amazed at the intricacy and complexity.
But what does all this astounding complexity do?
Chases a ball, barks at other dogs, wags his tail, eats, chews on a bone, runs up and down the back fence to annoy the two dogs over the back (both of which are about ten times bigger than he is), hides from storms and all the rest.
Take our dog, Sputnik. If I were to go into Sputnik’s physiology, right down to the cellular and molecular level, I would be amazed at the intricacy and complexity.
But what does all this astounding complexity do?
Chases a ball, barks at other dogs, wags his tail, eats, chews on a bone, runs up and down the back fence to annoy the two dogs over the back (both of which are about ten times bigger than he is), hides from storms and all the rest.
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tonyrey
Guest
Animals are more than biological machines. Dogs often save people’s lives…
So do the jaws of life.
Not to belittle the dog’s training, but let’s not forget that it is trained to do that.
In this case I consider it little more than a tool.
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judynurse
Guest
“Jaws” was an animal too – do not want to pet his cousins!!
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tonyrey
Guest
Many dogs have no training at all but like dolphins they save lives. It is an insult to call an animal a tool. It is not only our species which has a right to life.
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Oreoracle
Guest
I actually agree with you on something. We shall record this historic moment for posterity.
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tonyrey
Guest
We agree on far more than that! The right to life is not a human convention but an objective fact.
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