Do animals have souls?

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WindyHair

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also, do you believe they can they feel sadness/pain/happiness?
are there any bible scriptures that point to this?

howbout trees/forests/mountains/oceans…?
do they have a form of soul or spirit?
 
The soul is the animating principle of life. Plants and animals have irrational souls and are mortal. Humans have rational souls and are immortal.
 
animals, trees, plants have no soul. But I do believed that they have feelings, There is no reference in the bible because the bible is written about the people of Israel how then encounter God and about salvation.
 
Mountains and oceans do not have any kind of soul.

Animals do have some forms of emotions, like happy and sad, but I would not say that they are the same as the ones that we have. From everything that I have read, they do not dwell on memories.
 
buff, can you explain diff between irrational/rational souls? i didn’t know souls could be mortal.
are there any bible scriptures mentioning souls of plants/animals?

ralph, we know animals have memory but whether they dwell on
them, how can you know?
 
A rational soul can reason and think and can know its Creator.

I do not know of any Scripture that addresses the mentions the souls of plants and animals. The soul is the life force/principle of a living thing.
 
WindyHair said:
buff, can you explain diff between irrational/rational souls? i didn’t know souls could be mortal.
are there any bible scriptures mentioning souls of plants/animals?

ralph, we know animals have memory but whether they dwell on
them, how can you know?
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There are ways we can tell. Cognition varies widely in animals. Some may be capible of thought close to our level in some ways. Let’s look at pain.

It is possible to catch a fish more than once, assuming he does not die. Obviously, that fish does not recall what happened last time he bit the shinny thing.

Skip a species or two. Amphibians obviously register pain (anything with a nervous system does). However, it seems that they are like the fish and will try the same thing again.

Mammals and birds have the best recall. Pain is used to train animals. Rewards are too. There is no question about that. However, how much of it is because they learn by the system and how much of it is dwelling on what might be? IN other words, is the reaction to the threat of pain due to memories and recall or is it a lerned behavior?

Sadness is another good one. Say you have two dogs. One dies. The other is sad, right? Maybe not. Dogs are pack animals. When the pack is reduced, it changes the dynamic around the pack. If you have two cats and one dies, the other could care less.

Chimps have been seen keeping momentos of loved ones, and that may show memory. Again, it is hard to say because the communication is not translatable.

One of the issues with animals that we do not see, and it is tied to recall as well as advanced thought, is the use of rituals or burial. Without true rituals (not mating dances to show prowess), it is hard to accept that they can consider anything of the beyond.

THe rational soul is the one that we have that makes us able to ponder the eternal. It is in the Image and Likeness of God. We can choose right and wrong and are not forced to be ruled by genetics or basic drives only. All life has a soul. Not all souls are eternal and those that are not can not consider the eternal.
 
Animals have material souls; they do not have spiritual, immortal souls like human beings because we are made in the image and likeness of God.
 
If my cats are any indication, animals DO feel emotions.

When I was in the hospital, Fr. Brendan, my associate, noted that the cats were wandering around, crying and looking for me.
 
I would not be too quick to rule out animals having souls. In Romans 8:18-23 Paul talks about the whole creation groaning and waiting for the revealing of the sons of God so that it can be free. The context would seem to include more than humanity under the term creation. He talks about creation being set free from slavery into the glory of the children of God.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Click to expand...
 
SyCarl said:
I would not be too quick to rule out animals having souls. In Romans 8:18-23 Paul talks about the whole creation groaning and waiting for the revealing of the sons of God so that it can be free. The context would seem to include more than humanity under the term creation. He talks about creation being set free from slavery into the glory of the children of God.
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True, but without free-will, do they need a savior? Animals cannot deny that there is a God, nor can they act against that which they are commanded to do by Him. Is the groaning of creation because creation needs salvation or is it creation groaning against sinful man?
 
bpbasilphx said:
If my cats are any indication, animals DO feel emotions.

When I was in the hospital, Fr. Brendan, my associate, noted that the cats were wandering around, crying and looking for me.
Click to expand...
I would not doubt that. However, do your cats contemplate the eternal or are they just smart cats?
 
ralphinal said:
There are ways we can tell. Cognition varies widely in animals. Some may be capible of thought close to our level in some ways. Let’s look at pain.

It is possible to catch a fish more than once, assuming he does not die. Obviously, that fish does not recall what happened last time he bit the shinny thing.

Skip a species or two. Amphibians obviously register pain (anything with a nervous system does). However, it seems that they are like the fish and will try the same thing again.

Mammals and birds have the best recall. Pain is used to train animals. Rewards are too. There is no question about that. However, how much of it is because they learn by the system and how much of it is dwelling on what might be? IN other words, is the reaction to the threat of pain due to memories and recall or is it a lerned behavior?

Sadness is another good one. Say you have two dogs. One dies. The other is sad, right? Maybe not. Dogs are pack animals. When the pack is reduced, it changes the dynamic around the pack. If you have two cats and one dies, the other could care less.

Chimps have been seen keeping momentos of loved ones, and that may show memory. Again, it is hard to say because the communication is not translatable.

One of the issues with animals that we do not see, and it is tied to recall as well as advanced thought, is the use of rituals or burial. Without true rituals (not mating dances to show prowess), it is hard to accept that they can consider anything of the beyond.

THe rational soul is the one that we have that makes us able to ponder the eternal. It is in the Image and Likeness of God. We can choose right and wrong and are not forced to be ruled by genetics or basic drives only. All life has a soul. Not all souls are eternal and those that are not can not consider the eternal.
Click to expand...
We have 2 cats and a dog. From my observation animals do have memory and emotions. If we go out of town to visit my brother, our dog knows exactly where we are going when we enter their town. I can only see this as memory. Our dog dreams when asleep, moving her legs as if running and yipping. If my wife goes away, the cats mope around until she returns. When either of us returns our animals run to welcome us, even if they were doing something else at the time. I can only view this as happiness. If one pet is suffering in some way you can tell by the way the other react, even if we can’t see anything wrong right away. These are just my observations.
 
SyCarl said:
We have 2 cats and a dog. From my observation animals do have memory and emotions. If we go out of town to visit my brother, our dog knows exactly where we are going when we enter their town. I can only see this as memory. Our dog dreams when asleep, moving her legs as if running and yipping. If my wife goes away, the cats mope around until she returns. When either of us returns our animals run to welcome us, even if they were doing something else at the time. I can only view this as happiness. If one pet is suffering in some way you can tell by the way the other react, even if we can’t see anything wrong right away. These are just my observations.
Click to expand...
I have seen the same behavior. I am saying that some of it is anthropomorphism. Some of it is memory and recall. Some of it is tied to the instict that animals have to stay loyal to the group.

Dreams and muscle behavior during sleep is another topic. Some of it is just a way to keep the muscles ready for action without as much of a lag once they wake. Who knows what they dream about.
 
ralphinal said:
True, but without free-will, do they need a savior? Animals cannot deny that there is a God, nor can they act against that which they are commanded to do by Him. Is the groaning of creation because creation needs salvation or is it creation groaning against sinful man?
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I would also refer to Hebrews 2:5-10
5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking.
6 But one has testified somewhere, saying,
"WHAT IS MAN, THAT YOU REMEMBER HIM?
OR THE SON OF MAN, THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HIM?
7 "YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS;
YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR,
AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET "
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
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If Hebrews is telling us that the world to come will be subject to man, it would seem that there would have to be something in that world that will be subject. I don’t think 5-8 deal with Jesus because they talk of man and the son of man.

I am not saying that animals do have souls or that they will have an afterlife, but I don’t think it is certain they will not.
 
ralph, whether animals have rituals are debatable. it’s just ours are more complex. where in scripture does it say that animals have souls at all or don’t have souls?

did you know elephants come together to mourn their dead?
that seems a strong indicator of dwelling in memory.
but is higher cognitive ability a qualifier for having a soul?
what is the qualifier? and where in the bible does it state that.

buff, so as far as you know, only humans have souls?
are there different kinds of souls, if so, where in the bible
does it say that?

Psalter, u make an important point. we were created in his image. why is that? what does god need of fingers, hair, and toes?
are animals then just foodstuffs for human kind?
 
SyCarl said:
I would also refer to Hebrews 2:5-10

If Hebrews is telling us that the world to come will be subject to man, it would seem that there would have to be something in that world that will be subject. I don’t think 5-8 deal with Jesus because they talk of man and the son of man.

I am not saying that animals do have souls or that they will have an afterlife, but I don’t think it is certain they will not.
Click to expand...
But by an large, we physically subjugate the earth. WE change land forms, water ways, and all that. We control animals, even making them extinct.

I agree. We cannot say that they will or will not be in heaven.
 
WindyHair said:
ralph, whether animals have rituals are debatable. it’s just ours are more complex. where in scripture does it say that animals have souls at all or don’t have souls?

did you know elephants come together to mourn their dead?
that seems a strong indicator of dwelling in memory.
but is higher cognitive ability a qualifier for having a soul?
what is the qualifier? and where in the bible does it state that.

buff, so as far as you know, only humans have souls?
are there different kinds of souls, if so, where in the bible
does it say that?

Psalter, u make an important point. we were created in his image. why is that? what does god need of fingers, hair, and toes?
are animals then just foodstuffs for human kind?
Click to expand...
What I would want to see is a non-herd, non-pack animal morning loss or any of that. THen we can say that there may be more to it than instinct.

The Image and Likeness of God has nothing to do with looks. It has to do with having Free-Will (ability to determine life choices), ability to judge right from wrong, intellect, reason, and the ability to love. Only humans have all of these.
 
WindyHair said:
ralph, whether animals have rituals are debatable. it’s just ours are more complex. where in scripture does it say that animals have souls at all or don’t have souls?

did you know elephants come together to mourn their dead?
that seems a strong indicator of dwelling in memory.
but is higher cognitive ability a qualifier for having a soul?
what is the qualifier? and where in the bible does it state that.

buff, so as far as you know, only humans have souls?
are there different kinds of souls, if so, where in the bible
does it say that?

Psalter, u make an important point. we were created in his image. why is that? what does god need of fingers, hair, and toes?
are animals then just foodstuffs for human kind?
Click to expand...
**I. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE” **
[362](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/362.htm’)😉 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore *willed *by God.
[363](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/363.htm’)😉 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human *life *or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
[364](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/364.htm’)😉 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.
[366](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/366.htm’)😉 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235
[367](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/367.htm’)😉 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 “Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238
[368](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/368.htm’)😉 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one’s being, where the person decides for or against God.239

229 Gen 2:7.
230 Cf. Mt 16:25-26; Jn 15:13; Acts 2:41.
231 Cf. Mt 10:28; 26:38; Jn 12:27; 2 Macc 6:30.
232 Cf. 1 Cor 6:19-20; 15:44-45.
233 GS 14 § 1; cf. Dan 3:57-80.
234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
235 Cf. Pius XII, Humani Generis: DS 3896; Paul VI, CPG § 8; Lateran Council V (1513): DS 1440.
236 1 Thess 5:23.
237 Cf. Council of Constantinople IV (870): DS 657.
238 Cf. Vatican Council I, Dei Filius: DS 3005; GS 22 § 5; Humani Generis: DS 3891.
239 Cf. Jer 31:33; Deut 6:5; 29:3; Isa 29:13; Ezek 36:26; Mt 6:21; Lk 8:15; Rom 5:5.
 
Explains the concept
scripturelink.googlepages.com/search?cx=001763116401597409521%3Af7idlv7awxw&cof=FORID%3A11&q=animals+souls

Aquinas says

"Now life is shown principally by two actions, knowledge and movement. The philosophers of old, not being able to rise above their imagination, supposed that the principle of these actions was something corporeal: for they asserted that only bodies were real things; and that what is not corporeal is nothing: hence they maintained that the soul is something corporeal. This opinion can be proved to be false in many ways; but we shall make use of only one proof, based on universal and certain principles, which shows clearly that the soul is not a body. "
newadvent.org/summa/1075.htm#article1

p.s. animal’s current souls are temperal, as with our current bodies, while human souls are aeviternal. i.e. last forever, so we cannot risk harming our souls, but can risk harming animals or plants, as they will either ciese to be or be recreated (body and soul). Soul literally means life, so all living things have souls, to intentionally deny this is heresy, but mostly it is unintentional, and is only materially so. Human souls are different from Angel souls, although of one species of soul, and wherein the difference is oft termed “accidental”, the fact being the positions of the two, man, the heirs, angels which are already perfect, or utterly deformed.

the Catechism says

"359 "In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear."224

St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . the first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. the first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life… the second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. the first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. the last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last.“225”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P1B.HTM

Summary on animal life

So, the soul animate (c.f. anima- latin - soul) the body, and allows intelligence. God is life itself, spirit, as the bible says, so our soul is our part which most manifests him, when not in sin, and harmful habit, or state.

Animals temporarially manifest life, but may again become channels of life later. Man has an eternal life, and in that an “eternal” (aeviternal for both) soul.

That said, each soul, other than God, is an entity separate from God, otherwise this statement would be pantheistic, and that would be condemned in Vatican 1.
 
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