Do any Nuns or Sisters still wear a cornette?

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Even though the Vatican Counsil II never said to take them off, some orders did anyways. But here is my question … Do any nuns or sisters wear the Cornette like the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul did? I also find that in some convents, the sisters are very liberal! I was on one of the Sisters of St. Joseph’s websites, and they had liturgical dancers!:eek: the horror, and the NERVE of these sisters. Statistics show, that Orders that wear habits, have more younger, and older vocations, and have a higher population than those without the habit. I love the habit, and I wish some orders interpreted the documents of the Second Vatican Council correctly. The documents never said to institute altar girls. Neither did they say to remove Altar rails. Sorry to go off topic (I do that alot). But, I much rather a Nun or Sister in traditional habit, Priest in Clerics or a Cassock, and during mass with the proper Vestments (not some tie-dye hippy creation that he made out of some of his old rags, which you wouldn’t be surprised to find in the sixties:mad:) and Brothers and Monks in habit. God bless you all now! I hope you all had a blessed Christmas and Advent, and I would like to wish you a glorious New Year!

Dominus Vobiscum!
 
Even though the Vatican Counsil II never said to take them off, some orders did anyways. But here is my question … Do any nuns or sisters wear the Cornette like the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul did? I also find that in some convents, the sisters are very liberal! I was on one of the Sisters of St. Joseph’s websites, and they had liturgical dancers!:eek: the horror, and the NERVE of these sisters. Statistics show, that Orders that wear habits, have more younger, and older vocations, and have a higher population than those without the habit. I love the habit, and I wish some orders interpreted the documents of the Second Vatican Council correctly. The documents never said to institute altar girls. Neither did they say to remove Altar rails. Sorry to go off topic (I do that alot). But, I much rather a Nun or Sister in traditional habit, Priest in Clerics or a Cassock, and during mass with the proper Vestments (not some tie-dye hippy creation that he made out of some of his old rags, which you wouldn’t be surprised to find in the sixties:mad:) and Brothers and Monks in habit. God bless you all now! I hope you all had a blessed Christmas and Advent, and I would like to wish you a glorious New Year!

Dominus Vobiscum!
To my knowledge there are no orders that every wore the cornette (other than the Daughters). Many of the older Daughters of charity tell stories of some of the ways in which the cornette was NOT practical…they tell a great story about how they had to figure out a way that they could fit into a car because the wings of the cornette were so wide. They ended up using bobpins to pin the “wings” up on top of their heads so they could fit into cars. Then when they got out, they just took the bobpins out and the wings popped back out. Those DC’s are so practical!

It is nice to see so many religious orders going back to wearing the full habit. Those habits are a visible sign of their total filial commitment to Christ. Liturgical dance?? Don’t get me started! lol!
CC
 
I totally agree with you. If you have chosen a religous vocation (priest or nun) you should dress that way. There is a degree of respect that is to be shown to a priest or nun, but nowadays you don’t know. Like you I could go on about the things I don’t like about Vatican 2, but that is for another thread.
 
One reason the Daughters of Charity adopted the cornette was they were NOT nuns (who were and are always enclosed contemplative religious), but something different–one of the first active orders of women. The cornette was adopted because it was the headdress of the peasant women of France at the time.

As picturesque as they might be, the are not very practical, are they?

I might add–the garb of Holy Poverty, ironically, very expensive.

See here, for example:

conventofsaintelizabeth.org/apparel/monastic.html
 
Okay. I think I put out the message wrong in the post. I accept Vatican II and all it’s changes. I just think that they were interpreted in the wrong way. It wasn’s only the council, no. It was also the times. By that, I mean that the reason, I will take a chance at using, why the churches were ugly, was because of the ugly architecture of everything at the time, and then some of the Priests got into all the mumbo jumbos, and hippies started to infriltrate parishes, etc. But it is better times the, Thanks be to God. Because, we have wonderful Pope, God bless Him. He is an Orthodox, and very capital-C-Conservative. An example, about how some nuns and sisters have their habit is my friends Aunt, was a Daughter of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, and when they took off the habit, she went to the Little Sisters of the Poor and became one. Their foundress was Canonized not to long ago, also, just to mention. On the pedestal of them being Nuns, or Sisters… that’s what I wasn’t sure about either, but it was answered. They are religious sisters. A nun can be a sister, but a religious sister can’t be a nun. Where I live, there is only the Mercy Sisters, who thankfully are going back to ther habit (very slowly though), and the Presentation Sisters. But to tell you the truth, I only support Religious Orders in Communion with Rome, like the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter … the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and the Una Voce organization.
 
\and then some of the Priests got into all the mumbo jumbos, and hippies started to infriltrate parishes,\

**1. What do you mean by “all the mumbo jumbos”?
  1. Are you saying that hippies should NOT be allowed in parishes?**
 
\and then some of the Priests got into all the mumbo jumbos, and hippies started to infriltrate parishes,\

**1. What do you mean by “all the mumbo jumbos”?
  1. Are you saying that hippies should NOT be allowed in parishes?**
Okay. By “Mumbo Jumbo’s” I meant that they started to become very liberal, and started using tie-dye chasubles, and the liturgical dance :hypno:, and the use of Lay Homilies (which is forbidden). and getting people to gather around the altar :grouphug: But that wasn’t all priests though, only the ones who interpreted wrong.

About hippies … I am not a big fan of them … at all. I hope I am not too prejudiced, though.

Oh, and whoever moved us to the Vocations section, Thank You! It’s a better spot.
 
To my knowledge there are no orders that every wore the cornette (other than the Daughters). Many of the older Daughters of charity tell stories of some of the ways in which the cornette was NOT practical…they tell a great story about how they had to figure out a way that they could fit into a car because the wings of the cornette were so wide. They ended up using bobpins to pin the “wings” up on top of their heads so they could fit into cars. Then when they got out, they just took the bobpins out and the wings popped back out. Those DC’s are so practical!

It is nice to see so many religious orders going back to wearing the full habit. Those habits are a visible sign of their total filial commitment to Christ. Liturgical dance?? Don’t get me started! lol!
CC
There are a lot of reasons no one wears the cornette anymore. It is heavy, hot, hard to keep up–to redo every week–all that starch. Many orders in Belgium and the Netherlands wore a cornette, as it was the dress of the time. There is a very rare out-of print book in Flemish about these orders, with pictures. One striking thing is that most of the orders, many local or diocesan, have died out and another is that the wearers look somewhat disheveled-the cornette asymmetrical or drooping, with the various wings or curls poorly maintained or applied.

If you read older literature about sisters who left in the 60’s and 70’s, they tell striking stories about what the old habits were like, expensive, hot, dirty–they were allowed to wash or dry clean them only occasionally and the sisters themselves were allowed to bathe often only about once/week–very difficult and time-consuming to maintain. Many also were dangerous as they cut off side vision. Many, as the Daughters of Charity, the Grey Nuns of Montreal, the Charity of the BVM’s, who had one of the worst, started out as the dress of the people. Of course the new habits don’t have some of these faults. The lovely habit of the Nashville and Ann Arbor Dominicans was vetted by a French fashion designer who told them to keep the length because the long lines were so becoming. Other orders will full but modern habits have ignored this advice in order to make their habits safer–less likely to trip going up or down stairs.
 
Okay. I think I put out the message wrong in the post. I accept Vatican II and all it’s changes. I just think that they were interpreted in the wrong way. It wasn’s only the council, no. It was also the times. By that, I mean that the reason, I will take a chance at using, why the churches were ugly, was because of the ugly architecture of everything at the time, and then some of the Priests got into all the mumbo jumbos, and hippies started to infriltrate parishes, etc. But it is better times the, Thanks be to God. Because, we have wonderful Pope, God bless Him. He is an Orthodox, and very capital-C-Conservative. An example, about how some nuns and sisters have their habit is my friends Aunt, was a Daughter of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, and when they took off the habit, she went to the Little Sisters of the Poor and became one. Their foundress was Canonized not to long ago, also, just to mention. On the pedestal of them being Nuns, or Sisters… that’s what I wasn’t sure about either, but it was answered. They are religious sisters. A nun can be a sister, but a religious sister can’t be a nun. Where I live, there is only the Mercy Sisters, who thankfully are going back to ther habit (very slowly though), and the Presentation Sisters. But to tell you the truth, I only support Religious Orders in Communion with Rome, like the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter … the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and the Una Voce organization.
Technically, the Daughters of Charity are a Society of Apostolic Life…like the Jesuits…they take simple vows and retake them yearly…they don’t take Permanent vows…Right before St. Vincent set up the Daughters the Pope made all religious women (nuns and sisters) go back into convents - I think this happened to the Visitation Sisters(?)…St. Vincent then set the Daughters up so that that they could never be cloistered…
CC
 
Well then, are there any Orders or Convents that wear very traditional habits. I can only name a few.
 
I might add–the garb of Holy Poverty, ironically, very expensive.

See here, for example:

conventofsaintelizabeth.org/apparel/monastic.html
Yes some monastic apparel can be very expensive, but there is nothing to stop anyone from having their seamstress or tailor make their habit from a modern cheap synthetic that will wear just fine and often be a lot easier to maintain. Of course there’s nothing to stop anyone making their habit themselves if they are good at pattern cutting and sewing. I’m not terribly good at this myself, but was able to find someone more skilled to help me with the tricky bits. Fabric can be the biggest expense, but I’ve had a lot of success with finding suitable fabric being sold in warehouse clearance sales, stock room clearouts and in thrift shops/church ‘op’ shops.
My first habit cost me just $NZ 70.00 for fabric, cottons and having someone machine sew it for me. The one I wear now cost me $NZ 150.00 in total complete and sewn for me, but unlike my first one it has a scapular and the fabric is a heavier grade. One of my undershirts was run up from a double cotton sheet I purchased for $NZ 3.00 at a Sally Army store. No doubt as I get better at this I’ll be able to clothe myself for next to nothing, but the whole reason for it is that there is no point in promising to live a simple lifestyle if one is getting about in clothing that cost the equivalent of the average low income wage for a calendar month!
I will say that thrift shops and the Sally Army can be good too for finding secular clothing that is close enough in style to be adapted. I have a long denim jumper that I use as a work habit and all of my underskirts are just adapted plain long skirts from the thrift shop.
 
From Vincent de Paul and Charity: A Contemporary Portrait of His Life and Apostolic Spirit by Andre Dodin, CM

p33
On November 29, 1633, a small house in the Saint Victor suburb became the birthplace of the Company of the Daughters of Charity, servants of the sick poor. They were to be religious without habits, veils or solemn vows. Vincent combined the perspectives of religious life with the vocation of missionary servants. He described their vocation in these unforgettable words:
They will have for a monastery the houses of the sick and the house where their superior lives. For a cell, a rented room. For a chapel, the parish church. For a cloister, the streets of the city. For an enclosure, obedience.For a grate, the fear of God. For a veil, holy modesty. For profession, continual confidence in Providence and the offering of all that they are.
emphasis mine.
 
One reason the Daughters of Charity adopted the cornette was they were NOT nuns (who were and are always enclosed contemplative religious), but something different–one of the first active orders of women. The cornette was adopted because it was the headdress of the peasant women of France at the time.

As picturesque as they might be, the are not very practical, are they?

I might add–the garb of Holy Poverty, ironically, very expensive.

See here, for example:

conventofsaintelizabeth.org/apparel/monastic.html
Monasteries and convents traditionally made all their own clothes (just as they produced much of their own food). The traditional ones still do.
 
Monasteries and convents traditionally made all their own clothes (just as they produced much of their own food). The traditional ones still do.
Not always.

I know several traditional Orthodox AND Catholic monasteries that don’t for the simple reason that nobody knows how to sew! Holy Obedience does NOT automatically confer gifts and skills the one given the order does not have, contrary to what some people think.

The sisters of St. Elizabeth the New Martyr’s Martha-Mary Convent of Mercy, who were dedicated to home health care and similar works of mercy among the poor of Moscow, did NOT wear the habit of a Russian nun.

They wore a grey tunic and grey veils for work, with white for Church. Directly under the veil was a white (always) apostolinik, which is like a loose wimple that comes down to the elbows. Obviously, their habit was designed for their work.

I’ve seen photos of a large Russian women’s monastery. The Infirmarian simply wears a headscarf when performing her medical duties. Apotolniki do not allow for a stethoscope.
 
There were two other communities that wore the cornet: The Sisters of Charity of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the Dominican Sisters of the Presentation, I believe. Anyway, it was one of the Dominican groups.

The Cornet became very impractical when sisters tried to get a license. They were denied a driver’s license, because they did not have peripheral or rear vision. Originally, the cornet was a veil that dropped to the shoulders. Vicent de Paul insisted that the Daughters put it up and out of the way, because it got in the way when nursing. They began to starch it.

As far as habits in general are concerned, Perfectae Caritatis said that the habit should be modified so that it met certain requirements: practical, modest, comfortable for the particular ministry, simple and in good taste. There was never any regulation about whether it should or should not have a veil or a hat, long or short skirt. By the time that Vatican II came around, there were already new congregations that had been founded during the 20th century that did not wear a long skirt or a veil, for example the Missionaries of the Blessed Trinity. They wore a knee length black dress without a veil. They wore a staw hat when they went out and to church, but nothing indoors. Nor did these sisters have to tonsure their hair. The Parish Visitors wore a business suit. They looked like the older version of flight attendants.

Habits of men religious vary from one community to another. Much depends on whether they are an order or a congregation and whether they are mendicants, monks, canons or clerks. Mendicants and monks date back to the early years of the Church to the Middle Ages. Our habit is the traditional tunic with capuch. This is usually worn by: Carmelites, Benedictines, Franciscans, Augustinians, Carthusians, Trinitarians, O’Praem, and Dominicans. Today, there are some new congregations of mendicants who were the mendicant habit.

The clerks and canons wore cassocks. Some had distinctive features in their cassocks such as the white collar of the Redemptorists or the heart on the Passionists. Other clerks wore the Jesuit cassock. Diocesan priests slowly began to wear cassocks around the 19th century. Prior to that they wore street clothing. You have to understand that diocesan priests are secular men. They are not consecrated men. They were not called Father either. That comes from religious orders. Diocesan priests were called Mr. until the 19th century. They began to wear cassocks and use the title Father. They were always Rev. In Italy, Diocesan priests are still called Mir or Don in Italian. In France they are called Dom or Mssr.

Among the Germans only the parish priest wore clerical garb. Diocesan priests who worked in other ministries still wear shirts and ties or just shirts. There are old pictures of Fr. Ratzinger when he was a professor. He’s wearing a suit and tie. He didn’t begin to wear a cassock until he began to do parish work. He was a university professor, so he wore a suit and tie. The customs for men vary depending on their canonical status and their ministry. In the East celibate monks wear veils, while married clergy wear a hat without a veil. All women religious in the east are nuns. But they all wear the same black robe and veil. They do not have the distinctive colors and cuts as we did in the west.

A woman looking for a religious community with a habit should visit the site for the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religious. All of the communties in the conference wear some kind of habit. Also, nins generally wear a habit, some more traditional than others, depending on climate, local culture and the work that they do.

One also has to remember that a habit is very expensive. I know that our own habit costs about $280.00 for one tunic. In our community, each brother has only one tunic. We also have a work tunic, which is a shorter tunic worn over jeans. Many monastic communities have a long and short tunic. The long tunic is very expensive to make. You don’t want to damage it doing manual labor. In some communities you wear street clothes for manual labor and the habit when doing other things.

I find the Roman collar more uncomfortable than the habit. Maybe it’s me. I don’t like anything choking me, especially when it’s hot. Therefore, I rarely wear it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Even though the Vatican Counsil II never said to take them off, some orders did anyways. But here is my question … Do any nuns or sisters wear the Cornette like the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul did? I also find that in some convents, the sisters are very liberal! I was on one of the Sisters of St. Joseph’s websites, and they had liturgical dancers!:eek: the horror, and the NERVE of these sisters. Statistics show, that Orders that wear habits, have more younger, and older vocations, and have a higher population than those without the habit. I love the habit, and I wish some orders interpreted the documents of the Second Vatican Council correctly. The documents never said to institute altar girls. Neither did they say to remove Altar rails. Sorry to go off topic (I do that alot). But, I much rather a Nun or Sister in traditional habit, Priest in Clerics or a Cassock, and during mass with the proper Vestments (not some tie-dye hippy creation that he made out of some of his old rags, which you wouldn’t be surprised to find in the sixties:mad:) and Brothers and Monks in habit. God bless you all now! I hope you all had a blessed Christmas and Advent, and I would like to wish you a glorious New Year!

Dominus Vobiscum!
I do love to see a cornet.

Wonderful for custody of the eyes, etc. I think they will return, God willing, as time goes by and more and the rebellious generations that rejected so much pass away.

A habit is a great sign of the Lord’s presence in the world, in this time where the devil is trying to force Christianity from the public sphere it is all the more needed.

Priests, nuns, all everywhere set aside their religious garb for worldly clothing. The outward sign of what was going on interiorly in so many of their hearts.

The obedient care of a habit is part of the acts of daily labor which can be offered up to God for souls. Many people forgot that such labor is of value before God, and thought, ‘we should have easier habits to take care of.’ They did not know the value of what they had, or they disdained it, and so they lost it.

But the children of know it. It is good. It will return. 🙂

May you have a blessed Christmas season and Happy New Year too I pray. 🙂
 
I do love to see a cornet.

Wonderful for custody of the eyes, etc. I think they will return, God willing, as time goes by and more and the rebellious generations that rejected so much pass away.

A habit is a great sign of the Lord’s presence in the world, in this time where the devil is trying to force Christianity from the public sphere it is all the more needed.

Priests, nuns, all everywhere set aside their religious garb for worldly clothing. The outward sign of what was going on interiorly in so many of their hearts.

The obedient care of a habit is part of the acts of daily labor which can be offered up to God for souls. Many people forgot that such labor is of value before God, and thought, ‘we should have easier habits to take care of.’ They did not know the value of what they had, or they disdained it, and so they lost it.

But the children of know it. It is good. It will return. 🙂

May you have a blessed Christmas season and Happy New Year too I pray. 🙂
I don’t see the cornet coming back, because the Daughters drive. It is dangerous to drive with it. We are seeing the return of veils though.

It’s not the care of the habit that is the problem. It’s the time that it took many sisters to put together everytime they did laundry. Today’s simpler habits as we see worn by the Daughters of Mary, the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal, the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration, the Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia, the Sisters of Life are easier to maintain and are still very recognizable as religious habits. These habits you just wash and wear. There is not much to taking care of them.

As far as the cornet is concerned, it was not abandoned because of rebellion, but because the Daughters adopted a short veil. That was more practical for maintenance and as I said, for driving. Prior to the 20th century, people didn’t drive. In the early part of the 20th century, most women didn’t drive. They didn’t operate machinery either. Today the Daughters drive and they work in many hospitals with all kinds of medical equipment that was not around 75 years ago. A more compact habit is very much in keeping with what Perfectae Caritasis asked for, “practical and appropriate for the apostolate.”

It’s like the habits of men. The simple primitive Franciscan habit that most of us wear is much more practical than the Franciscan habit that was adopted in the 1700s. Our original habit was very much like what we have adopted today. For example our Franciscan Brothers of Life wear a grey tunic with a capuche attached to the tunic, a chord and a tau. Immediately after the French Revolution the friars regrouped, after having been dispersed, and adopted a habit that was not only different from our original habit, but was the least practical thing anyone would want to wear. It had 12 pleats in the front and 12 more in the back. These had to ironed in each time you did laundry. It had a shoulder cape that came down to the elbows but was narrow and did not allow you to stretch you arms, so you had to keep tugging it up to raise your arms. It also had a very tiny capuche that was very impractical, because it did not cover your head when it got cold, which was the original purpose of the capuche. You had to wear a mantle (cape), because you could not get your sleeves into a coat due to the shoulder cape.

Returning to the simple one piece grey tunic without pletes and an attached capuche without a shoulder cape fits our work and the circumstances of today much better. In the winter you can wear a sweater or coat over it and in the warmer climates it actually keeps us cool.

The other addition that was made to our habit were shoes. Originally, Franciscans were discalced. Shoes were worn by monks, not friars. There was an attempt to make us look more like monks, so the shoes were added. They were later made optional during the Leonine reformation of the Franciscan order. Mandatory shoes are a pain in the neck, because we take off our shoes or sandals to enter the chapel. When you have sandals you just slip in and out of them.

Another addition that had been made during the 1700s were the monastic sleeves. These weer wide sleeves so that you could hide your hands by crossing them in front of you inside the sleeves.

The new habit of the reform, which is not the new habit, but actually the habit of the 1200s, has narrow sleeves. The reason for the narrow sleeves was that the friars did manual labor in the fields. The narrow sleeves did not get caught on things or get in the way of the work, because you could roll them up and they stayed put.

That’s just an example two religioius families: the Daughters and the Franciscans. Other communities also underwent changes in their habits . Since most religious families orginated in Europe, they were affected by these movements and events. The religious families founded in the USA, Asia, Africa and Latin America have always had simpler habits

The orders that were started in Italy and Spain usually had simpler habits. Once they got to France, they were redesigned and made complicated. Today, you can still see a French Fanciscan habit if you visit the Franciscan University or St. Francis University. They are run by the TORs who still wear the French Franciscan habit.

The Daughters not only had a cornet, but they too had pletes in their skirts and a rather large white collar that was starched and came down to their waist. When they redisigned it, long before Vatican II, mid 1950s, they exchanged it for a blue habit and veil, without the cornet, pletes and starched collar. It was a very simple habit, easy to maintain and practical, especially for nursing and other medical work, not to mention driving as I said before.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
thank you JReducation for your very informative posts! i really learn from your posts, esp in this thread! i hope everybody would read your posts to maek things as clear as crystal. 🙂
 
\Diocesan priests were called Mr. until the 19th century.\

**There are letters from John Carroll, first bishop of Baltimore, in which he refers to secular priests as “Mr.”

Shin, it’s very easy for you to talk about what other people should be wearing, how they should keep custody of their eyes, and what they should offer to God.

Speaking as a bishop, I think you should look to your own soul, and let other people, including religious, look to theirs.

I might mention that at Holy Trinity Orthodox Monastery in Jordanville, probably the last bastion of 19th Century Russian monastic piety, the brethren do NOT wear cassocks when driving tractors, working on the dairy farm, running up and down ladders to fresco ceilings, and the like.**
 
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