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Do any Protestant communities have valid Apostolic Succession?
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EvangelCatholic
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You are confusing the word “catholic” as is universal in comparison to the Roman Catholic Church. All the Lutheran/ Catholic dialogues affirm what is “catholic”. Benedict even suggested that the Augsburg Confession can be a Roman Catholic creed. You are too hung up on the word and not seeing catholicity.
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PRmerger
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And you are moving the goalposts.
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EvangelCatholic
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Evidently you are frustrated that Lutherans say “catholic” every Sunday at Mass.And you are moving the goalposts.
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PRmerger
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Actually, I have no emotion attached to that whatsoever.Evidently you are frustrated that Lutherans say “catholic” every Sunday at Mass.
As I said, and I repeat, “It’s no skin off my nose if anyone who’s a Christian wants to claim to be Catholic.” It merely underscores what is the “real thing”. Everyone wants a piece of it.
I was simply taking issue with your claim that there had been some sort of “agreement” that Catholicism was giving the
to Lutheranism calling itself Catholic.It appears that this was a misstatement on your part.
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EvangelCatholic
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No, once again, you do not understand that all the Dialogues between the Roman Catholic Church and Lutheran Church since Vatican II affirm our mutual catholic faith. There wouldn’t be agreement unless both Churches proclaim we are part of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.Actually, I have no emotion attached to that whatsoever.
As I said, and I repeat, “It’s no skin off my nose if anyone who’s a Christian wants to claim to be Catholic.” It merely underscores what is the “real thing”. Everyone wants a piece of it.
I was simply taking issue with your claim that there had been some sort of “agreement” that Catholicism was giving the
It appears that this was a misstatement on your part.
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Peter_J
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I think you’re mostly right there. Words aren’t usually capitalized unless they’re proper names; hence we say that Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans are “catholic”, but only we who are in communion with Rome are “Catholic”.
Of course, this can become problematic since much communication isn’t written.
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MaryT777
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Exactly. Catholic "Capital C: to Catholics denote those in Communion with Rome.
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pablope
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Bouyer is the Lutheran, the author of the book Brumley writes about.
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EvangelCatholic
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Entirely. Orthodox Christians are Catholics but they may not emphasize that aspect of their tradition. In the Western Church, catholic can be used as in Roman Catholic but it means much more. I think when we are refer to “catholic” faith as well as catholic worship the distinction is further narrowed to those who follow the ancient liturgy. Lutherans readily acknowledge that our worship is historic “catholic” expression; we are proud of that. Anglicans also honor the catholic aspect of the faith. We all have more in common than our differences.
Today is the Nativity of St John the Baptist, whom all catholics honor today. The prophet calls us to Christ.
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PRmerger
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Then you should be able to proffer the document that limns that the Catholic Church has given a thumbs up to Lutherans calling themselves Catholics.
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EvangelCatholic
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I have named all of the Catholic creeds as well as the Lutheran/ Catholic accords. You can choice to ignore them if you want. Thankfully those in charge of both of our Communions prefer to deal with each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. Something you may want to ponder.Then you should be able to proffer the document that limns that the Catholic Church has given a thumbs up to Lutherans calling themselves Catholics.
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PRmerger
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Perhaps the sentence to which you are referring would be helpful?
As such, nothing here at all even mentions Lutherans, let alone says there is an agreement to allow you to call yourselves Catholic.
catholictradition.org/Tradition/creeds.htm
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PRmerger
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I feel an analogy would be helpful here.
Imagine if I said, “Luther claimed that the Muslims can call themselves Lutherans and for you to say that Muslims are not Lutherans is to contravene Luther himself.”
You respond with, “Where did Luther claim that Muslims can call themselves Lutherans?”
And I respond with: In the Augsburg confessions.
You say: Where?
And I respond with: I already told you. You just don’t want to accept that Muslims are Monotheists. That’s Catholic teaching, too, you know!
See how that would not be a fruitful conversation?
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EvangelCatholic
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Aside from looking foolish, your evident animosity toward others who dare to refer to themselves as catholic is troubling on a Christian website.
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PRmerger
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As I said, I have no negative emotion attached to your wanting to call yourself Catholic.* In fact, I rather like it as it points to everyone wanting to be part of The Real Thing.
I do take issue however with your misstatements about some sort of illusory agreement that Catholicism has made with Lutheranism regarding being able to call themselves Catholic.
It exists as much as Luther’s document proclaiming that Muslims can call themselves Lutherans (see Augsberg Confessions, y’all
)*Edit: In fact, I prefer your and JonNC’s Catholicism when compared to Catholic Rosemary Radford Ruether. So, knock yourself out, EC. You have the
from me.I just wanted you to clarify that no such document exists that declares that the Church has formally declared Lutherans to be Catholic.
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EvangelCatholic
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**Apostolic Succession - As defined in Lutheran-Episcopal dialogues,
Apostolicity contains four major strands - faithful teaching, the sacraments, a recognized ministry, and involvement in mission - “the Church’s continuity with Christ and the apostles in its movement through history.” Apostolic succession is “a dynamic, diverse reality” embracing faithfulness to apostolic teaching; participation in baptism, prayer, and the eucharist; “sharing in the Church’s common life of mutual edification and caring, served by an ecclesiastically called and recognized pastoral ministry of Word and sacrament;” and “continuing involvement in the apostolic mission” of the church by proclaiming the gospel through word and deed. Apostolic succession is not to be understood “primarily in terms of historic episcopate.”
In other words, the apostolic succession is not only the laying-on-of-hands from one bishop to another over the centuries, but a cord formed by four important strands. While Anglicans have maintained the historic ministry explicity through the episcopate, the historic ministry has also been maintained through the Lutheran tradition as well, even in the absence of bishops. Similarly, while Anglicans have always preached the Gospel, the Lutherans have upheld its centrality most forcefully**
Apostolicity contains four major strands - faithful teaching, the sacraments, a recognized ministry, and involvement in mission - “the Church’s continuity with Christ and the apostles in its movement through history.” Apostolic succession is “a dynamic, diverse reality” embracing faithfulness to apostolic teaching; participation in baptism, prayer, and the eucharist; “sharing in the Church’s common life of mutual edification and caring, served by an ecclesiastically called and recognized pastoral ministry of Word and sacrament;” and “continuing involvement in the apostolic mission” of the church by proclaiming the gospel through word and deed. Apostolic succession is not to be understood “primarily in terms of historic episcopate.”
In other words, the apostolic succession is not only the laying-on-of-hands from one bishop to another over the centuries, but a cord formed by four important strands. While Anglicans have maintained the historic ministry explicity through the episcopate, the historic ministry has also been maintained through the Lutheran tradition as well, even in the absence of bishops. Similarly, while Anglicans have always preached the Gospel, the Lutherans have upheld its centrality most forcefully**
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EvangelCatholic
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Also found this on an Episcopal site, ‘Ask the Priest’, regarding apostolic succession:
So do Anglicans have a valid Historic Episcopate? I believe we do. Our lines of succession come not only from the pre-reformation Church in England, but also through the Old Catholic and Baltic Lutheran lines. Were our ordination rites ever “defective?” Only if you accept the Counter-Reformation Roman definition of priestly sacrifice as the only norm of the church, thus declaring generations of Roman ordinations and all Eastern Orthodox ordinations invalid.
askthepriest.org/askthepriest/2007/11/holy-orders-and.html
So do Anglicans have a valid Historic Episcopate? I believe we do. Our lines of succession come not only from the pre-reformation Church in England, but also through the Old Catholic and Baltic Lutheran lines. Were our ordination rites ever “defective?” Only if you accept the Counter-Reformation Roman definition of priestly sacrifice as the only norm of the church, thus declaring generations of Roman ordinations and all Eastern Orthodox ordinations invalid.
askthepriest.org/askthepriest/2007/11/holy-orders-and.html
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MaryT777
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Exactly there is no such document or it would have been produced.As I said, I have no negative emotion attached to your wanting to call yourself Catholic.* In fact, I rather like it as it points to everyone wanting to be part of The Real Thing.
I do take issue however with your misstatements about some sort of illusory agreement that Catholicism has made with Lutheranism regarding being able to call themselves Catholic.
It exists as much as Luther’s document proclaiming that Muslims can call themselves Lutherans (see Augsberg Confessions, y’all
*Edit: In fact, I prefer your and JonNC’s Catholicism when compared to Catholic Rosemary Radford Ruether. So, knock yourself out, EC. You have the
I just wanted you to clarify that no such document exists that declares that the Church has formally declared Lutherans to be Catholic.
Mary.
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