Do any protestant denominations believe in the transubstantiation of the Eucharist?

[blaskoman]

This may be a stupid question…however, I have heard that some protestant churches do indeed have the Eucharist at their services. Am I correct in assuming that they merely consider their form of the Eucharist as symbolic of the presence of Jesus, and not how Catholics view the Eucharist?

 

[Lutheranteach]

This may be a stupid question…however, I have heard that some protestant churches do indeed have the Eucharist at their services. Am I correct in assuming that they merely consider their form of the Eucharist as symbolic of the presence of Jesus, and not how Catholics view the Eucharist?

Not entirely, the Lutheran view is quite similar to the Catholic view.

 

[momor]

Not entirely, the Lutheran view is quite similar to the Catholic view.

Please elaborate. Thanks.

 

[LindaSK]

Not entirely, the Lutheran view is quite similar to the Catholic view.

Catholic now, but brought up in an Ev. Lutheran church. I was taught that Christ was really present in Communion, that it was not symbolic. It actually made my conversion into the Catholic Church easier. Yes, I understand the difference, so please don’t criticize what I posted on that account. Thank you!

 

[JonNC]

Please elaborate. Thanks.

Aside from the metaphysics of Transubstantiation, Lutheran and Catholc beliefs are rather similar. The Apology of the Ausburg Confession says in part:
"we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh. "

The link is an interesting docmument from Lutheran/Catholic dialogue on the Eucharist.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Jon

 

[GeorgeSword]

Simply put, a Lutheran friend explained it to me that Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood are present as well as the bread and wine, whereas Catholics believe it wholly ceases to be bread and wine. Is that correct?

 

[JonNC]

Simply put, a Lutheran friend explained it to me that Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood are present as well as the bread and wine, whereas Catholics believe it wholly ceases to be bread and wine. Is that correct?

Not exactly, George. Lutherans often use the term, Sacramental Union, or “in, with, and under”, as it connects to the essence of Christ - wholly man and wholly God. What appears before us is bread and wine, but we know it is the body and blood of Christ. We take Christ at His word, and He said “is”. For us, in a sacramental sense, it is no longer bread and wine, but the true, substantail body and blood of Christ. We let the metaphysics alone.

Jon

 

[Jesus_123]

+It is my understanding that Lutherans . . . as a collective ecclesial group of protestant Christians with many branches. . . liberal and conservative and all those in-between . . . are the largest protestant denomination in the world . . . *though not in the United States *. . . where they come in second to Baptists as another large collective ecclesial group of protestant Christians of several branches . . . and who hold the rank of second largest protestant ecclesial Christian group in the world . . .

While transubstantiation . . . *or some version thereof *. . . is widely taught among God’s devout Lutheran children . . . the connection between the priest and the holy words of consecration during the Holy Prayer of the Apostolic Holy Catholic Church’s Mass having been lost when they became separated from our Holy Mother Church . . . there has risen up considerable controversy and discussion and many diverse opinions have been advanced as to the “when” and the “how” this occurs . . . with a variety of beliefs having sprung up since the necessity of the **Catholic Holy Prayer of the Mass **and the Catholic priesthood of the **Apostolic ****Holy Roman Catholic Church had been removed or lost from their spiritual faith picture and teachings as Christians . . . Holy Communion as understood and practiced among many Lutherans in holy faithful obedience to God’s Holy :bible1: Word is greatly to be honored and respected as that of God’s **people . . . whom Pope John XXIII called our "separated brethren" . . . loving and obeying theirs and our Wonderful Lord to the best of their abilities . . . however limited the light and understanding they have of the particular actual process of grace . . . *lost to them through their separation from Holy Mother Church *. . . which is ordained of God . . . of Christ Jesus acting through his holy ordained Catholic priests . . . alone . . . for the actual transubstantiation when the priest prayerfully intones the words of Consecartion . . . “Hoc est Corpus Meum” (“This is My Body”) . . .

Devout Baptist ecclesial groups of Christians also prayerfully hold Holy Communion sacred and in the highest of esteem and holy honor and as an absolutely necessary act of holy reverent obedience to our Wonderful Lord . . . and faithfully participate in their humble obedience honoring the **Thoughts of God **as recorded in **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **. . . and partake in it most particularly as "Do This In Remembrance of Me" . . . it is a great sadness and loss that the reality of transubstantiation is . . . ***centuries far removed ***. . . from their faith and teachings . . . but obediently faithfully living in the limited light . . . *in this particular area and reality of our mutual Christian Faith *. . . which they have in regard to this holy grace . . . gleaned over many centuries in regard to Holy Communion . . . their humble obedience to **Sacred Scripture **is much to be praised in the Lord . . . as they love and honor their’s and our Lord in all of His goodness . . . the best way they have knowledge of . . .

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy St. Francis+​

 

[Jesus_123]

+I love the below quote from the wonderful little book . . . The Little Flowers of St. Francis . . . translated by E.M. Blaiklock and A. C. Keys . . . in regard to the Eucharistic Christ and one of St. Francis of Assisi’s disciple priest’s experiences during the **Holy Prayer of the Mass **. . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
How Brother John saw Christ in glory in the Host,
and how **Christ **stood on the altar when he said:
“This is my body.”
​

“To the same Brother John there happened a miracle worthy of being solemnly recorded as recounted by those who were present … After saying Matins he proceeded into the garden; for he was conscious of such tremendous sweetness and genltleness that he appreciated in proportion to the mighty grace derived from those words of the Lord "Hoc est corpus meum" (This is my body) … and in his heart kept on saying :“This is my body.” Enlightened as to these words by the Holy Spirit, he beheld the **blessed Christ **along with the **blessed Virgin **and a throng of angels :angel1: and saints. And he understood those words of the apostle that "We are all one body in Christ, each one is a member of one another, that you may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth, the length, the height and the depth” and to know the love of **Christ **that passes all knowledge–all of which is included in the lofty sacrament that is celebrated when the words “This is my body” are uttered. … When therefore he went up to the alter to celebrate **Mass ** , which he was supposed to sing … Having reached **“This is my body,” **he kept repeating “Hoc est…Hoc est…This is… This is…” over and over again, and was unable to get further, for he was so conscious of the Divine Presence and of a throng of angels :angel1: and saints … But Brother John, as if transported by this most blessed and blissful joy, stood still without completing the holy Consecration, because he felt that the ***Lord Jesus Christ ***was not entering into the Host, or rather that the **Host **was not being transubstantiated into the **Body of Christ **until he added the words “Corpus meum” (My body). Unable to bear the majestical greatness of the Sacred Head, that is, of Christ as the paradise of the mystical body of Christ was revealed to him, he exclaimed **“Corpus meum.” **

And immediately the form of the bread vanished and there appeared the
+

**Lord Jesus Christ **+incarnate and glorified, who revealed to him the humbleness that led to his incarnation and caused him daily to come into the hands of the priest. And that humility held Brother John in such bliss and ineffable and unutterable wonder, that he was unable to complete the words of the Consecration. For so wonderful is the humility and favor of our **Savior **toward us . . .”

The Little Flowers of St. Francis

• translated by E. M. Blaiklock and A. C. Keys
  Chapter 52

. . . all for Jesus+
Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!​

 

[DorianGregorian]

You are correct that there are many Lutheran denominations, but they work very closely with other denominations, most have “sister Churches” in other countries. It’s similar to the Orthodox Church.

 

[JonNC]

+It is my understanding that Lutherans . . . as a collective ecclesial group of protestant Christians with many branches. . . liberal and conservative and all those in-between . . . are the largest protestant denomination in the world . . . *though not in the United States *. . . where they come in second to Baptists as another large collective ecclesial group of protestant Christians of several branches . . . and who hold the rank of second largest protestant ecclesial Christian group in the world . . .

While transubstantiation . . . *or some version thereof *. . . is widely taught among God’s devout Lutheran children . . . the connection between the priest and the holy words of consecration during the Holy Prayer of the Apostolic Holy Catholic Church’s Mass having been lost when they became separated from our Holy Mother Church . . . there has risen up considerable controversy and discussion and many diverse opinions have been advanced as to the “when” and the “how” this occurs . . . with a variety of beliefs having sprung up since the necessity of the **Catholic Holy Prayer of the Mass **and the Catholic priesthood of the **Apostolic ****Holy Roman Catholic Church had been removed or lost from their spiritual faith picture and teachings as Christians . . . Holy Communion as understood and practiced among many Lutherans in holy faithful obedience to God’s Holy :bible1: Word is greatly to be honored and respected as that of God’s **people . . . whom Pope John XXIII called our "separated brethren" . . . loving and obeying theirs and our Wonderful Lord to the best of their abilities . . . however limited the light and understanding they have of the particular actual process of grace . . . *lost to them through their separation from Holy Mother Church *. . . which is ordained of God . . . of Christ Jesus acting through his holy ordained Catholic priests . . . alone . . . for the actual transubstantiation when the priest prayerfully intones the words of Consecartion . . . “Hoc est Corpus Meum” (“This is My Body”) . . .

I appreciate the level of charity you use in your comments. Thanks. Please understand if I respectfully disagree with the Catholic position that our clergy and therefore our Eucharist
are not valid.
One question: you said “…Christ Jesus acting through holy ordained Catholic priests alone.” What about Orthodox, PNCC, and other old Catholics?

Jon

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper.

-Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[Palaeologos]

It might be useful at this point to draw a distinction between the doctrine of the Real Presence and the theory of transubstantiation.

The doctrine of the Real Presence is shared (at least officially) by Catholics (including splinter groups such as the PNCC and Old Catholic jurisdictions), Lutherans, Anglicans, and Orthodox. This doctrine refers to the Sacrament of Holy Communion, and teaches that the Body and Blood of our Lord are really present in that Sacrament; that when the faithful communicant receives the elements, he is receiving the Body and Blood of Christ.

The theory of transubstantiation, first put forward by St Thomas Aquinas, is a particular explanation of the way in which the Real Presence works in the Sacrament. Lutherans, Anglicans, and Orthodox who believe in the Real Presence do not necessarily accept the theory of transubstantiation, and many actively reject it, feeling that it is beside the point to define the exact metaphysical workings of a Sacrament which we are enjoined to take and eat.

I really wish people would stop treating the two terms as identical, because they aren’t.

 

[GKC]

It might be useful at this point to draw a distinction between the doctrine of the Real Presence and the theory of transubstantiation.

The doctrine of the Real Presence is shared (at least officially) by Catholics (including splinter groups such as the PNCC and Old Catholic jurisdictions), Lutherans, Anglicans, and Orthodox. This doctrine refers to the Sacrament of Holy Communion, and teaches that the Body and Blood of our Lord are really present in that Sacrament; that when the faithful communicant receives the elements, he is receiving the Body and Blood of Christ.

The theory of transubstantiation, first put forward by St Thomas Aquinas, is a particular explanation of the way in which the Real Presence works in the Sacrament. Lutherans, Anglicans, and Orthodox who believe in the Real Presence do not necessarily accept the theory of transubstantiation, and many actively reject it, feeling that it is beside the point to define the exact metaphysical workings of a Sacrament which we are enjoined to take and eat.

I really wish people would stop treating the two terms as identical, because they aren’t.

Yep.

Of course, you can find Anglicans who affirm transubstantiation. Seems as noble an effort to explain the mystery as I can imagine. But it’s not de fide, for us.

It is as Lewis put it, in LETTERS TO MALCOM: the command was “Take, eat”, not “Take, understand”.

GKC

 

[Jesus_123]

One question: you said “…Christ Jesus acting through holy ordained Catholic priests alone.” What about Orthodox, PNCC, and other old Catholics?

Jon

+Hi Jon . . . in your above question the subject you’ve touched upon is dealt with in the Catholic doctrine of . . . Apostolic Succession . . . the below quotes explain this doctrinal belief we hold as Catholics much better than I can . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .

CATECHISM
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Article 3
The Sacrament of the Eucharist

I. The Eucharist—Source and Summit of Ecclesial Life

**1369 **

The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop’s name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.191

Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests’ hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the** Lord himself **comes.192

**. . . :coffeeread: . . .
**
Apostolic Succession

Apostolic Succession is the doctrine … asserting that the chosen successors of the Twelve Apostles, from the first century to the present day, have the same authority, power, and responsibility as was conferred upon the apostles by Jesus.

Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Anglican churches are the predominant proponents of this doctrine.[1] To them, present-day bishops, as the successors of previous bishops, going back to the apostles, have power by this unbroken chain. This link with the apostles guarantees for them their authority in matters of faith, morals, and the valid administration of sacraments.

Essential to maintaining the apostolic succession is the proper consecration of bishops. Apostolic succession is to be distinguished from the Petrine supremacy (see papacy). …

Defining features

Adherents maintain that apostolic succession “is one of four elements which define the true Church of Jesus Christ”[3] and legitimizes the sacramental offices, as it is considered necessary for a bishop to perform legitimate or “valid” ordinations of priests, deacons, and other bishops. Apostolic succession is transmitted during episcopal consecrations (the ordination of bishops) by the laying on of hands of bishops previously consecrated within the apostolic succession. This lineage of ordination is traceable, according to “Apostolic” churches, to the original Twelve Apostles, thus making the Church the continuation of the early Apostolic Christian community.

Within the sacramental theology … only bishops and presbyters (priests) ordained by bishops in the apostolic succession can validly celebrate or “confect” several of the other sacraments, including the Eucharist, reconciliation of penitents, confirmation and anointing of the sick. To those who claim it, apostolic succession is an important dividing line: the lack of it is the primary basis on which Protestant communities are not considered churches by the Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic Church.[4]

While the Anglican claim of apostolic succession is recognized by some Eastern Orthodox churches, it is not officially recognized by the Catholic Church, based on Pope Leo XIII’s papal bull Apostolicae Curae. However, since the promulgation of Apostolicae Curae, Anglican bishops have acquired Old Catholic lines of apostolic succession recognized by Rome.

Eastern Orthodox theology and ecclesiology teaches that each bishop is equal to the other bishops, even the Ecumenical Patriarch, who is first amongst equals. The Roman Catholic Church and many early Christian writers teach that Jesus gave Saint Peter a unique primacy among the apostles. Roman Catholics teach that this primacy has been passed on in the office of the Papacy.

Apostolicity as doctrinal continuity

… It is worth noting, however, that the First of the Epistles of Clement which is commonly dated to the first century and claims to be written by the Roman Church (the chair of St. Peter and the center of the unity of the Church, according to Catholic doctrine) which was established by the Apostles presents a belief in apostolic succession as do also the Epistles of Ignatius of Antioch, who was a personal disciple of the Apostles John and Paul. Also worth noting is the fact that others besides the twelve Apostles and Saint Paul are called “Apostles” in the New Testament. Also noteworthy is that the Apostle Paul, though given spiritual authority directly by Christ, did not embark on his apostleship without conferring with those who were apostles before him as he notes in his Epistle to the Galatians.

- Wikipedia​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+​

 

[Zundrah]

Do any protestant denominations believe in the transubstantiation of the Eucharist?

No.

 

[MarkBrown]

This may be a stupid question…however, I have heard that some protestant churches do indeed have the Eucharist at their services. Am I correct in assuming that they merely consider their form of the Eucharist as symbolic of the presence of Jesus, and not how Catholics view the Eucharist?

Denominations such as Lutheran and Anglican (two that spring to mind) will have the Eucharist. For Anglicans, we are all over the place on it. Comes from not really having set doctrines. In my former parish I had Anglicans who believed in the Real Presence and defined it as Lutherans, Orthodox or Catholics define it. I also had some who defined it as a symbol and remembrance only. This group only came to Mass once a month, attending Morning Prayer the rest of the time.

As denominations, none hold to the Catholic view of the Eucharist as explained by Transubstatiation. The 39 Articles of Religion, specifically in Article 28 reject in writing Transubstatiation in very explict wording. Luckily for me and many Anglicans, some on this board, the 39 Articles are not binding…well only for the CoE clergy.

Fr. Mark

 

[GKC]

+Hi Jon . . . in your above question the subject you’ve touched upon is dealt with in the Catholic doctrine of . . . Apostolic Succession . . . the below quotes explain this doctrinal belief we hold as Catholics much better than I can . . .

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+​

Yep.

Did I ever mention that Apostolicae Curae is a hobby of mine?

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Really?

Yep.

Did I ever mention that Apostolicae Curae is a hobby of mine?

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[GKC]

Really?

I can never remember whether I’ve said that.

GKC

 

[Jesus_123]

Denominations such as Lutheran and Anglican (two that spring to mind) will have the Eucharist. For Anglicans, we are all over the place on it. Comes from not really having set doctrines. In my former parish I had Anglicans who believed in the Real Presence and defined it as Lutherans, Orthodox or Catholics define it. I also had some who defined it as a symbol and remembrance only. This group only came to Mass once a month, attending Morning Prayer the rest of the time.

As denominations, none hold to the Catholic view of the Eucharist as explained by Transubstatiation. The 39 Articles of Religion, specifically in Article 28 reject in writing Transubstatiation in very explict wording. Luckily for me and many Anglicans, some on this board, the 39 Articles are not binding…well only for the CoE clergy.

Fr. Mark

+I appreciate your comment about the “bridge” in your heading Father Mark . . . *many many people . . . within and without the Anglican/Episcopalian community . . . don’t realize or understand that the flawed, confused and faulty foundation of the Anglican/Episcopalian ecclesial community’s beliefs was created . . . because of *. . . and through . . . the actions of the gravely disordered, disobedient and mortally sinful King Henry VIII . . . who quite literally stole/kidnapped the English Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . (which over the ages since has contained millions of souls) . . . away from the Holy Father in Rome . . . the Vicar of Christ . . . the Pope . . . and their rightful and true Holy Mother Church . . . **the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church **. . . it is with great and prayerful . . . holy joy! . . . that many of us are watching our . . . **Wonderful Lord **. . . opening wide the doors for His dear Anglican Catholic children to return to Him in complete communion within the dear heart of the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . **their true Mother Church **. . . from whence they were so horribly rent apart and separated . . . through the grave disordered murderous soul of King Henry VIII . . . The very foundation of the Episcopalian/Anglican/etc. ecclesial communities which sprang from the original evil action of King Henry VIII . . . is founded not solidly upon the Solid Rock as spoken of by . . . Jesus . . . **the Blessed Christ ** . . . but on the shifting unstable sands of sinful mankind’s mortally sinful abuse of power . . . pride-full disordered disobedience to . . . and departure from . . . the Holy Bloodstained Cross of . . . Christ Jesus . . . our so . . . *terribly bruised *** . . . wounded . . . Crucified . . . Resurrected and Ascended Lord . . . ** who now is seated at the right hand of the Father . . . and a . . . horrifically . . . evil . . . intent . . . of man . . . in particular a King . . . spawned by the enemy of souls in the deepest pit of hell . . . against **God’s **innocent beloved fully Catholic children . . .

For any of you interested . . . Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN) broadcast a *Journey Home *a marvelous show . . . which is now in their archives . . . dealing with Anglican Catholic priests and whole Anglican Catholic communities of the faithful returning to their original sheepfold of their Roman Holy Mother Catholic Church . . . and several Anglican Priests who have been received and become Catholics and are now ordained Roman Catholic priests were the guests and contributors who interacted with Marcus Grodi the moderator of the show . . . who himself . . . an ordained protestant minister of the Word . . . came into Holy Roman Catholic Church from another Christian denomination/ecclesial community . . . all of which communities contain what Pope John XXIII . . . . who was the . . . Vicar of Christ . . . the Holy Bishop of Rome . . . from 1958-1963 . . . called the "separated brethren" . . .

The returning of thousands upon thousands **God’s **"separated brethren" to the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church is one of the phenomenon’s of our age . . . and a . . . glorious . . . Work of God’s Holy Spirit . . . it is. . . *and returning they are . . . by the droves . . . *

(Jesus speaking . . .) ****
:bible1:
"And I say to thee:
That thou art Peter;
and upon
**this rock **
**I **will build my church,
and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

*Peace . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank You Gracious Heavenly Father+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+​