Do atheists know

[davidv]

According to Genesis 1, written by man

Written by man, inspired by God.

Because the universe works just the way it does without any interviening God, and the only use for a God is existing.

Do you any evidence supporting this statement?

Perhaps just by his mere presence, nothing can truly never exist…But hey, thats another thread, brah

Isn’t everything about creation an assumption?

No. “I exist” is not an assumption

 

[Neithan]

There is a book called “Theology for Beginners” by Frank Sheed, which does a good job of explaining the Catholic understanding of God with respects to the points you raise.

I don’t think it is possible to know perfectly God’s motivations and intentions, however it seems reasonable (and reason is really all we have outside of revelation in these matters) to assume for God to have created as opposed to not create, it was an act of the will. It just kind of seem odd that God wouldn’t of had any real control or choice about the matter and that it just sprang from His mind uncontrollably.

However, there may be some truth to your questioning, and this is the reason I bring up Frank Sheed’s book. He says that the universe, our reality, is purely a thought in the mind of God. The human being can create worlds in his mind, which exist and persist only in some metaphysical way, but God’s thoughts are our reality. If just the act of God’s thinking is the catalyst for our creation then maybe the universe does just co-exist with God and His persistent thinking. This case would coroborate your claim or question, yet I think Sheed goes on the say that our existence (the universe) is an idea in the mind of God, but not His mind in itself. The mind of God, or the Logos, is actually the second person of the Trinity.

Rather than speculate, I would recommend studying Aquinas’ Summa Contra Gentiles as a more in-depth attempt to answer these questions.

 

[lemondiesel]

Written by man, inspired by God.

Debatable on whether someone is truly inspired by a God. A strong belief can cause anything to be real, until it conflicts with reality.

Do you any evidence supporting this statement?

Allow me to illustrate, by explaining to you an aspect of God. God is whatever force that causes an atoms into existence. He is at the core of every atom, he is all of matter itself. He is the entire physical universe. This does not mean he had a choice however, because the universe could have always been. So I argue that God did not originally have a choice, he just always is.

No. “I exist” is not an assumption

Agreed! Everything that effected Earth until our mind was developed caused our minds to be created. The assumption part is, which events effected our evolutionary ancestors and which ones didn’t.

 

[tonyrey]

Allow me to illustrate, by explaining to you an aspect of God. God is whatever force that causes an atoms into existence. He is at the core of every atom, he is all of matter itself. He is the entire physical universe. This does not mean he had a choice however, because the universe could have always been. So I argue that God did not originally have a choice, he just always is.

You are right but your choice of words may be misleading. Not to be able to choose not to exist is not a limitation or a defect. It is a necessary consequence of being the Necessary Being! The Ultimate Reality is the Source of all freedom, creativity and love…

 

[Bub]

…that we worship Logic?

The Catholic is the ultimate philosopher, because he literally worships Wisdom.

Many atheists today (as they did in the time of Jesus) ask: “Why should we worship your god? What about all these other gods?” Well, the answer (which the ancient Fathers gave) is simple: because our God is Logic. The Logos. The Eternal Word.

I like and respect philosophical atheists a great deal, I can understand the doubt. I’m glad they’re here on these forums and I hope they continue to dialogue with us. If a man loves and seeks the Truth, how could he not be saved?

If there is a God called ‘the truth’ , we must worship him because of what people call him?

 

[Spirithound]

How do you know that men who elect the pope in recent times have the capability to appoint the proper one?

It doesn’t really matter whether they elect the “proper” one. The charism of infallibility is attached to the office of pope, it is not dependent on the individual’s worthiness.

 

[lemondiesel]

You are right but your choice of words may be misleading. Not to be able to choose not to exist is not a limitation or a defect. It is a necessary consequence of being the Necessary Being! The Ultimate Reality is the Source of all freedom, creativity and love…

Or it could be a burden from being the Necessary Being

 

[tonyrey]

Or it could be a burden from being the Necessary Being

Perfect love finds nothing burdensome! God knows very well the implications of Creation but He considers it worthwhile. Otherwise we wouldn’t exist!

 

[lemondiesel]

Perfect love finds nothing burdensome! God knows very well the implications of Creation but He considers it worthwhile. Otherwise we wouldn’t exist!

What is perfect love? Of course He considers it worthwhile, because we do not know if he has the power to end the universe. He is bound, just as we are, until the universe finally ends. He must wait, just like we must wait.

 

[davidv]

What is perfect love?

This:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. (John (NAB) 3:16)

Of course He considers it worthwhile, because we do not know if he has the power to end the universe. He is bound, just as we are, until the universe finally ends. He must wait, just like we must wait.

Why is God bound by anything He created? Why is God constrained to time?

 

[lemondiesel]

Why is God bound by anything He created?

Because God just always is! Whatever and *how *atoms come into existence is God. He is within everything, he literally is deep within everything. Atoms seem to run on algorithms, and have the possibility of not being able to never exist. They literally could have always existed, whether it be in potential energy. If they existed as PE, then what was the cause? So unanswerable, except when one realizes that ‘time’ before time, never was. God does not have some rational mind, where he thinks of all the choices and outcomes, he just does because he knows and simply is.

Just as our minds are creations of the physical matter aka brain, so too “God” the mind, created by everything. Everything works for some reason, even if that purpose is to sit there, like a rock. It is still important, because every single atom in the universe, as a whole, is the “brain” of God.

Why is God constrained to time?

Because there never was a time before time. We are so use to thinking “Oh I am 21 years old, that means 22 years ago I didn’t exist. But there was still history being made.” God just always is, therefore the universe always is, and has always been. Matter has just always existed, and the potential energy, never exists. It does not just ‘sit around’ until someone comes causes it transform, because that is a human concept. Potential Energy, when implied to the Big Bang, is irrelevant.

Personally, I think gravity is the cause. Simply the pull breaking matter down into non existence. Just too be potential energy, as dense energy, collecting more, growing more. Not even light exists. But hey, I smoke, so that’s just a crazy theory…

right?

 

[davidv]

Because God just always is! Whatever and *how *atoms come into existence is God. He is within everything, he literally is deep within everything. Atoms seem to run on algorithms, and have the possibility of not being able to never exist. They literally could have always existed, whether it be in potential energy. If they existed as PE, then what was the cause? So unanswerable, except when one realizes that ‘time’ before time, never was. God does not have some rational mind, where he thinks of all the choices and outcomes, he just does because he knows and simply is.

Just as our minds are creations of the physical matter aka brain, so too “God” the mind, created by everything. Everything works for some reason, even if that purpose is to sit there, like a rock. It is still important, because every single atom in the universe, as a whole, is the “brain” of God.

Because there never was a time before time. We are so use to thinking “Oh I am 21 years old, that means 22 years ago I didn’t exist. But there was still history being made.” God just always is, therefore the universe always is, and has always been. Matter has just always existed, and the potential energy, never exists. It does not just ‘sit around’ until someone comes causes it transform, because that is a human concept. Potential Energy, when implied to the Big Bang, is irrelevant.

Personally, I think gravity is the cause. Simply the pull breaking matter down into non existence. Just too be potential energy, as dense energy, collecting more, growing more. Not even light exists. But hey, I smoke, so that’s just a crazy theory…

right?

Seems to me you are ascribing the attributes of the creature/creation to the creator. Why would you do that?

 

[lemondiesel]

Seems to me you are ascribing the attributes of the creature/creation to the creator. Why would you do that?

Because God’s mind did not have a choice of what to create, his mind is only bound to this universe. Like I said, atoms just exist, so God played the hand he was dealt. It is the only thing He “knows.”

 

[Neithan]

If there is a God called ‘the truth’ , we must worship him because of what people call him?

that’s quite a creative misunderstanding, Bub! You seem to have a preconceived notion of what “a God” is; that would probably be a strawman.

What’s in a name? John doesn’t write ‘God is called the Logos’ [predicate adjective], he writes the Logos is God [predicate nominal]. It’s not a mere label, it’s an identification. But you prove the point that Scripture needs interpretation because even the clearest language can be misunderstood.

 

[davidv]

Because God’s mind did not have a choice of what to create, his mind is only bound to this universe. Like I said, atoms just exist, so God played the hand he was dealt. It is the only thing He “knows.”

Really? How do you know this?

 

[BlueShadow123]

Because God’s mind did not have a choice of what to create, his mind is only bound to this universe. Like I said, atoms just exist, so God played the hand he was dealt. It is the only thing He “knows.”

God didn’t choose what to create?
If that is really what you are trying to say by that post… then I am at loss for words.

How could God not have a choice on what he wanted to create? Please provide evidence that he could not control what he was doing and did not plan this out.

 

[lemondiesel]

Really? How do you know this?

I am apart of the “everything,” astral projections to places unbelievable, almost unexplainable. I have learned the ancient mysteries.

How could God not have a choice on what he wanted to create? Please provide evidence that he could not control what he was doing and did not plan this out.

That is like asking me to provide evidence for the existence of God. It wasn’t that he couldn’t control, its more that it always just is. Imagine a large tree in a forest. (pretend now that this tree represents an infinite universe.) We, as in life, grows on the tree, benefiting from the tree. The tree doesn’t have a “choice” whether or not moss grows on it, it just happens and just does. This is what it is like for God.

 

[Cristiano]

Because God’s mind did not have a choice of what to create, his mind is only bound to this universe. Like I said, atoms just exist, so God played the hand he was dealt. It is the only thing He “knows.”

So you are saying that God is not the prime cause. Then what would you call the prime cause?

 

[tonyrey]

Perfect love finds nothing burdensome! God knows very well the implications of Creation but He considers it worthwhile. Otherwise we wouldn’t exist!

Love which is not limited by the indifference or hatred of others but is concerned only about everyone’s well-being and happiness.

Of course He considers it worthwhile, because we do not know if he has the power to end the universe. He is bound, just as we are, until the universe finally ends. He must wait, just like we must wait.

The Creator of this immense and magnificent universe must have so much power that it exceeds our comprehension. We are certainly in no position to impose limits on His ability to determine when the universe will end…

 

[lemondiesel]

So you are saying that God is not the prime cause. Then what would you call the prime cause?

There was no prime cause, the prime cause is inevitable, because something must always exist. In order to be truly perfect, it would be better for God to exist, than not to exist. Therefore, a prime cause is inevitable.

Love which is not limited by the indifference or hatred of others but is concerned only about everyone’s well-being and happiness.

My friend, I feel like you are so close. Perfect love is not a rational mind, being concerned, like we think of it as. Perfect love is the attraction, it is the reason why certain atoms ‘know’ to attract to other certain atoms. It is the love that animals use, when trying to pick a mate. It is not about affection, it is just knowing that this love choice is the correct.

The Creator of this immense and magnificent universe must have so much power that it exceeds our comprehension. We are certainly in no position to impose limits on His ability to determine when the universe will end…

This power is not allowing ‘nothing’ to truly exist. We can’t comprehend this, because our minds seem so bound to Earthly time explanations. Being able to always have matter in existence is the ultimate power. It allows subconscious’s like ours to exist, and to reveal the history of the observable. He will never let the universe end, because his love for simply just existing, is far beyond our comprehension.

And why do you consider it immense? The universe is the largest, smallest thing, that is possibly conceivable. Size is irrelevant.