Do attendees of N.O. love the Mass like TLMers love the TLM?

[chevalier]

Many TLM will only attend or drive for hundreds miles to worship the Lord at a TLM Mass. I drive 45minutes one way to the TLM and I bet I must pass a ½ dozen NO parishes on the way there. Traditionalist will even push to the envelope Church Laws in not attending a NO mass is a TLM is not avail…

Do No attendees feel the same way about their Mass?

What would happen if it radically changed or as replaced?

Not going to pauline mass if tridentine is not available is called “missing a day of obligation”. And what’s pushing the Church laws called? At any rate, missing a day of obligation is not pushing the law. It’s crossing it. There’s the added notion of almost-rejecting Vaticanum II and considering the pauline mass almost-invalid. Let’s not remove the almosts.

I don’t like the vibe of calling mainstream Church “attendees of N.O.” It’s to me a bit the same as using “cradle Catholic” in a pejorative way to denote someone who was born into it and didn’t select the faith the way a convert does (“You have not chosen me, I have chosen you,” anyway ). I’m sure one could come up with similarly meaningful names for those who prefer the tridentine mass for pauline.

If you must know, I’ve seen 20 minute masses on Sundays, I’ve been to masses where there was no genuflection and, if I remember correctly, only standing up for consecration. I was shocked. Sometimes even non-Catholics notice something’s wrong with that. But I wouldn’t blame it on Vaticanum II. I have reverent pauline masses here, although I don’t like the idea of removing genuflection from receiving communion. An auxiliary bishop visited our parish, said there was “mess” and the way to solve it would to be to replace kneeling reception with standing. We now have neat lines of people and a rail that makes you think. Rumour has it they’re going to allow us to kneel again after complaints from people.

To be honest, I don’t like the idea that a nation with democratic traditions is too free and too pride to kneel before God. Especially if kneeling before the celebrant in the procession with gifts (bringing bread and wine to the celebrant) or before a bishop is still maintained. Too good to kneel to God, but not so not to kneel to His bishop? Eh.

And I’m certainly happy we don’t have “liturgical directors” or any other lay “directors” for that matter. In fact, Canon Law states EMHEs are for when the priest alone won’t suffice. These days bishops introduce EMHEs as a matter of involving the laity in the liturgy, which is a violation of Canon Law and I have a problem with that. Here, we don’t institute EMHEs just because it will take 5-10 minutes more without them. No offence intended to EMHEs (and I know some of our posters are those) who are needed or who are not so much genuinely necessary for practical reasons but still serving as good faith aides to the priests. But when a parish has several priests and/or deacons, there’s basically no excuse for mending the world further than Vaticanum 2 went. Further than the Canon Law allows, in fact. In fact, EMHEs should not be serving if the number of ordinary ministers present is sufficient. The way it functions in popular perception is that:

(in random order)

1. people think people have the right to become EMHEs,
2. people see it more or less as that EMHEs become ministers extraordinarily but then become as ordinary as a priest,
3. EMHEs are quasi-priests in common perception,
4. EMHEs “confer” Eucharistic blessings,
5. people believe 5 minutes is more than acceptable for the whole congregation receiving communion,
6. priests stand by as EMHEs distribute,
7. participants are asked by ordinary ministers to volunteer to help distributing.

Do I want to say “protestantisation?” No. But it does cross my mind.

Disclaimer: Just so no one gets any misconceptions, allow me here to pass my expressions of respect to all the people who faithfully and dedicatedly serve in this capacity. I in no way want to diminish their role or offend their service.

And no, this doesn’t mean I have a problem receiving communion in hand from an underaged female extraordinary minister (she’s probably lightyears ahead of me in spiritual formation anyway). This means I have a problem with bishops deciding they’re better than the Canon Law or wiser than the Pope, with laymen springing up to take up priestly roles, with forcible liberalisation and with modernism. And secularism.

At any rate, thank God for good priests and for many of them where there are.

 

[TNT]

I agree with this. I too remember the old Mass.

The average Mass was not so wonderful. The modern renditions, on the limited scale as we have today are much better done. And the average attendance today is a self-selected group of better informed and motivated laity.

When all the Masses were according to the older practice, things were not so rosy. One cannot take the average TLM as done today and project that into every Mass in every place and expect the same results. And some ‘traditionalists’ are still advocating some of the worst practices of the 1950’s, like rosary during Mass. It’s amazing how many insist on that practice, as if it should be acceptable.

Michael

I agree. That’s why I am opposed to a universal Indult.
However, to make me believe that the “rosary during Mass. **It’s amazing how many insist **on that practice, as if it should be acceptable.” yur gonna have to get us some links/other proof.
EVERY Indult/SSPX (many) I have ever been to has the Rosary Before Mass starts and found no one saying it during Mass. Some do keep it in their hand however, even I.

 

[InLight247]

I don’t think I would drive excessively far for a similar Mass. To me, that would be akin to church shopping, and that strikes me as a bit Protestant - i.e. trying to find a church that meets my needs and “feels right.”

That’s how I feel – if one only attends TLM, and refuses to attend NO because of the love of the TLM format, it sounds very Protestant like – one’s mentality is centering on getting something out of the Sunday service, instead of giving oneself to God for worship.

I love to attend Mass, NO that is. I appreciate every single minute of the Mass.
If our approach is to worship God, then nothing matters as long as Jesus is in the house, and the priest is rendering the sacrifice.

Not enough time to pray? One can always stay after Mass to continue the prayer. Just don’t rush out with the crowd.

 

[Hesychios]

However, to make me believe that the “rosary during Mass. **It’s amazing how many insist **on that practice, as if it should be acceptable.” yur gonna have to get us some links/other proof.
EVERY Indult/SSPX (many) I have ever been to has the Rosary Before Mass starts and found no one saying it during Mass. Some do keep it in their hand however, even I.

How about this link?

Rosary during Mass

 

[gospel_life]

Are we Catholic adults or are we 15 year olds talking about which high school is the best?

Exactly! In the time before actually joining here, while watching the workings, that is exactly the perception that I have had. The “Labels” thread in particular, with the attempts to justify identifying ourselves as particular “flavors” of Catholic, with the automatic implied superiority that my flavor is best and other flavors are deficient.

I think awalt put it beautifully in the comment

awalt:

Jesus spoke of the Water of Life, she was focused on the bucket. I think we too focus on the bucket too much and not the Water of Life.

Sometimes I fear we come dangerously close to sounding like the guy standing in the temple thanking God for not making us like that “other” guy.

 

[Uxor]

I think the GIRM actually calls for periods of silence to be included within the current rite. I know our priest has been working to include periods of silence after each reading and the homily as well as after communion. However, I do agree that it would be nice to have longer periods for personal reflection and preparation.

As for the OP, I am reading the question as saying that if I were surrounded by TLM parishes, would I drive an hour to attend a church with the current rite. Am I understanding the question correctly? I do love the Mass at my parish - it is very reverent and uplifting. However, I don’t think I would drive excessively far for a similar Mass. To me, that would be akin to church shopping, and that strikes me as a bit Protestant - i.e. trying to find a church that meets my needs and “feels right.” I think I would stick with whatever the local church is and work internally to encourage changes if I felt that the Mass was irreverant. If the situation was beyond remedy, I might drive to the next church over, but I think I would try to stay in my general area.

My changing was not about preference at all I literally couldn’t take anymore and yes I tried working internally. I have two teenagers who were raised with Vatican II and the NO Mass. I was quite concern about taking them to a Tridentine Mass that they would want to return back to the old parish and about all of us attending Mass as a family separately. I left the decision entirely up to them without voicing my opinion. What happen to my surprise and I’m sorry to say this…my daughters don’t want to return ever to the NO Mass, my younger one said, she didn’t see the point of going to the other church, just show up for 40 mins every Sunday. She stated after attending the Tridentine Mass, “I know I am going to get something out of this.” She said she has never been to anything that religious before. They now love attending Mass, before it was like a drudge to go. They love it. If it keeps their faith and they enjoy and want to attend Mass I’m all for it. I just look at it as a blessing from God and I don’t think I will have to worry about them when they leave home about losing their faith or not attending Mass any longer like I have friends whose children have done including family.

 

[maryalene]

Uxor, I just want to be clear that my second paragraph was just my personal feelings regarding the OP’s question. I was not responding with anyone else’s situation in mind. I quoted your post to reply about silence in the current rite. I don’t want to be misunderstood; I am not judging anyone else’s preference or circumstances.

 

[Uxor]

Uxor, I just want to be clear that my second paragraph was just my personal feelings regarding the OP’s question. I was not responding with anyone else’s situation in mind. I quoted your post to reply about silence in the current rite. I don’t want to be misunderstood; I am not judging anyone else’s preference or circumstances.

I understand, thanks for you response.

 

[gus]

I grew up with the Latin Mass. I still have my 1962 Missile
I floowed in English and after a while you understood the Latin
Still It was not enough to keep me in the church.
When I came back it was to the NO mass. I took a lot of time to try to understand my religion and the Mass
Maybe I’ave been lucky but I never been in a parish that abused the litergy.I’m overcome with emotion every time I participate.
I think the Mass is all about the noun not the adjective.
If all Catholics truly understood what they had they would never leave the Church
That being said I would like to see the TLM said on special occasions if for no other reason than its part of us .
For the young its a connection to the way are Grandparents worshipped.

 

[ctos]

Many TLM will only attend or drive for hundreds miles to worship the Lord at a TLM Mass. I drive 45minutes one way to the TLM and I bet I must pass a ½ dozen NO parishes on the way there. Traditionalist will even push to the envelope Church Laws in not attending a NO mass is a TLM is not avail…

Do No attendees feel the same way about their Mass?

What would happen if it radically changed or as replaced?

The sacrifices made by those who believe that the TLM alone will give them what they need are not a meaningful benchmark for evaluating the behavior of NO attendees. Those with the belief in the TLM are suffering from a delusion of sorts, and have an insufficient appreciation for the virtues of the Novus Ordo. They are not trying hard enough to appreciate what the Church has done. However, there can be little doubt that in some cases particular NO sites are so wacky that a person just needs relief. A traditionalist is someone who seeks that relief in the TLM setting, and believes that the nature of the relief fundamentally vests in that setting, and in that liturgy. They adjust their reasoning accordingly, and thereafter seek information to bolster that point of view, always seeking after how the Church is mistaken, how and when and to what extent it went astray, and the like.

If you have the experience that your NO mass is ‘blase’, just try to appreciate more deeply what is being said. It’s all there, in truth.

I don’t think it is necessary for us to answer the question, what if the NO was radically changed or replaced, because the reform that occurred was already a substantial retrenchment, a shearing off of accretions and such. How could it be changed? The question illustrates perhaps unwittingly a belief that the Mass was “changed” in some fundamental way.

Catholics will happily bypass Protestant churches in order to get to Mass.

 

[ctos]

gospel life said:

[SIGN]Sometimes I fear we come dangerously close to sounding like the guy standing in the temple thanking God for not making us like that “other” guy. [/SIGN]
Yes that’s true I think. (Isn’t that sign guy nifty?)

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I find it rare that people who attend the Novus Ordo will spontaneously praise it for its beauty, while people who attend the Mass of St. Gregory the Great (Tridentine) will spontaneously praise it for its beauty and reverence.

It reminds me of the Macintosh/Windows debate. It is very easy to find people who love their Macs, and you will find people who defend Windows. But it’s very rare to find someone who truly loves Windows. Rather they use it because they have to and often don’t have any other choice.

 

[maggieodae]

I find it rare that people who attend the Novus Ordo will spontaneously praise it for its beauty, while people who attend the Mass of St. Gregory the Great (Tridentine) will spontaneously praise it for its beauty and reverence.

It reminds me of the Macintosh/Windows debate. It is very easy to find people who love their Macs, and you will find people who defend Windows. But it’s very rare to find someone who truly loves Windows. Rather they use it because they have to and often don’t have any other choice.

Let me be among the rare then. I Love my NO…It’s fantastic! I can feel God all around me and it awakens my soul as nothing else can. I know my Lord is there and He waits for me.

TLM is nice too of course.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Many TLM will only attend or drive for hundreds miles to worship the Lord at a TLM Mass. I drive 45minutes one way to the TLM and I bet I must pass a ½ dozen NO parishes on the way there. Traditionalist will even push to the envelope Church Laws in not attending a NO mass is a TLM is not avail…

Do No attendees feel the same way about their Mass?

What would happen if it radically changed or as replaced?

Huh? This appears to endorse a “Protestant” church shopping mentality.

In my city, I can attend Mass in the vernacular, Spanish, Latin, and Sudanese. When I’m out of the country, I attend Mass in the vernacular of that country. I go to Mass to participate in the church-required communal prayer (to the best of my ability as I understand only one language-English) of the Mass and receive my Lord and Savior in the Eucharist. This is to be our motive.

If we have a particular “flavor” we prefer and it is allowed/endorsed by the Church whether in the Latin or another Rite (ala Marianite, etc.), we are encouraged to participate where we prefer. However, my preference gives me no right to CHOOSE to not participate in this communal prayer on Sunday. Any self-described “traditionalist” who feels other is making a choice comparable to the one Protestants have been making for 500 years.

 

[gospel_life]

I find it rare that people who attend the Novus Ordo will spontaneously praise it for its beauty, while people who attend the Mass of St. Gregory the Great (Tridentine) will spontaneously praise it for its beauty and reverence.

It reminds me of the Macintosh/Windows debate. It is very easy to find people who love their Macs, and you will find people who defend Windows. But it’s very rare to find someone who truly loves Windows. Rather they use it because they have to and often don’t have any other choice.

With all due respect, I find that very condescending. Having grown up with the TLM and having served at many of them, I found it–at least at the time–far less reverent than the NO masses I attend now. It was really more of a feeling of detachment and being a spectator, at least for me and from what I saw of those around me. Yes, the music was nice, but the music isn’t mass.

I find far more devoted people at my NO masses than I ever encountered during my TLM years, pre Vatican 2. I also understand that both the attitude and reverence have probably greatly improved now for the simple fact that those who attend the TLM now are there because they choose to be there, as are the priest who celebrate it.

As to people attending NO masses because they have no other choice, I tend to find that laughable. Most people I have discussed this with through the years–and there have been many–wouldn’t attend a TLM unless there just wasn’t anything else available. I don’t say that to dengrate the TLM in any way, as I think it a wonderful option for those who prefer it. But to make condescending statements that we who prefer the NO do so because we either don’t have a choice or aren’t bright enough to realize how inferior it is just boggles my mind.

Yes, maybe I’m rare, but I love my NO mass and the closeness it gives me to God. Do I think it’s the “best”? No, I think whichever allows one to experience God in the fullest way is the best for them.

And by the way, to the best of my knowledge, Gregory the Great predates the TLM by about 1000 years so I’m not sure what that reference might mean.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I find it rare that people who attend the Novus Ordo will spontaneously praise it for its beauty, while people who attend the Mass of St. Gregory the Great (Tridentine) will spontaneously praise it for its beauty and reverence.

It reminds me of the Macintosh/Windows debate. It is very easy to find people who love their Macs, and you will find people who defend Windows. But it’s very rare to find someone who truly loves Windows. Rather they use it because they have to and often don’t have any other choice.

I guess some have found TLM as their “guitar and drums”. This is so weird to me. Mass endorsed by the Church (regardless of Rite or flavor) is an approved communal prayer and where we can recieve the source and summit of our faith (the Eucharist). Being able to attend the Rite or “flavor” of our choice is just an insignificant bonus.

 

[LilyM]

I find it rare that people who attend the Novus Ordo will spontaneously praise it for its beauty, while people who attend the Mass of St. Gregory the Great (Tridentine) will spontaneously praise it for its beauty and reverence.

I think you could also find plenty of people who go to a TLM and walk out completely unmoved and perhaps turned off by the Latin, by the ad orientem posture of the priest, by such incomprehensible details as the readings being done in Latin and occasionally not in the vernacular at all, by the almost complete lack of any sort of visible participation by the congregation (in some TLM masses)

It reminds me of the Macintosh/Windows debate. It is very easy to find people who love their Macs, and you will find people who defend Windows. But it’s very rare to find someone who truly loves Windows. Rather they use it because they have to and often don’t have any other choice.

Rubbish. I do have a choice, there’s at least one Indult Mass and an SSPX chapel close enough that I could go to. I choose the NO. I’m certain I’m not alone in this.

Every person who was a member of the laity of the Church at the time of implementation of the NO had a choice. They could have chosen to protest against its replacement. We know that a number did, and of course that there were and are plenty who hate(d) the NO and bear with it in silence, but surely if so many people so loved the TLM there would have been more protest???

I have a feeling if brotherhrolf sees this he may snap at me about it. Brother, I’m not disrespecting your point of view at all, and I’m sure if I’d witnessed even a quarter of the things you have I’d probably share it.

 

[Mary_Henley]

In the Mass I meet Jesus…I ascend the steps that lead me to the gates of Heaven.
I enjoy a personal relationship with the Almighty in a way only a Catholic can!
Com Union!
What I am most thankful for is that Jesus bends low to earth to reach out to me! To embrace me! To make me one with Him.
All else fades to nothingness…pales to the grandeur of God made Flesh!

The liturgy while important to the edification of the faithful is established to give Honor Thanksgiving Reparation and Petition to God Himself…Our Triune Lord.
I bow my head in submission to my Mother…be it The Mass of Bl. Paul Vl or the Mass of St.Pius V.
I have seen both slaughtered by irreverence, distracted parishioners, silly altar servers, gum chewing teens…and as only God knows the the sinful state of some souls, I am sure sacrilege is committed at both liturgies.
I have been raised aloft by both…
God is always adored at both.

Come Lord Jesus…deliver us from this plague of dissent!

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

With all due respect, I find that very condescending. Having grown up with the TLM and having served at many of them, I found it–at least at the time–far less reverent than the NO masses I attend now. It was really more of a feeling of detachment and being a spectator, at least for me and from what I saw of those around me. Yes, the music was nice, but the music isn’t mass.

I find far more devoted people at my NO masses than I ever encountered during my TLM years, pre Vatican 2. I also understand that both the attitude and reverence have probably greatly improved now for the simple fact that those who attend the TLM now are there because they choose to be there, as are the priest who celebrate it.

As to people attending NO masses because they have no other choice, I tend to find that laughable. Most people I have discussed this with through the years–and there have been many–wouldn’t attend a TLM unless there just wasn’t anything else available. I don’t say that to dengrate the TLM in any way, as I think it a wonderful option for those who prefer it. But to make condescending statements that we who prefer the NO do so because we either don’t have a choice or aren’t bright enough to realize how inferior it is just boggles my mind.

Yes, maybe I’m rare, but I love my NO mass and the closeness it gives me to God. Do I think it’s the “best”? No, I think whichever allows one to experience God in the fullest way is the best for them.

And by the way, to the best of my knowledge, Gregory the Great predates the TLM by about 1000 years so I’m not sure what that reference might mean.

I did not intend my post to sound condescending. I agree that there are people, perhaps because of unfamiliarity with the Mass of St. Gregory the Great (more on that later) who will choose to attend the Novus Ordo. I do maintain that there is still a lack of choice among Catholics in that, even where the Old Mass is offered, quite often it is scheduled at an out of the way place at an inconvenient time (as is the case where I live).

However, to be more specific, I am speaking of my own experience where I have heard people in person spontaneously praise the Old Mass and have not heard similar comments regarding the Novus Ordo (I attend the Novus Ordo most of the time). If you love the Novus Ordo, then fine.

I do not know how you ascertain that there are more devoted people today attending the Novus Ordo than people who used to attend the Mass of St. Gregory the Great. Do you have some ability to look into the hearts and minds of people at Mass? I don’t even want to say that the people who attend the Novus Ordo are less devoted than those who attend the Old Mass; as far as I know, they may be more devoted. Perhaps you are making the mistake of equating the activity that is part of the Novus Ordo with devotion (the devotion may be there, I don’t know even though most of the time I attend the Novus Ordo).

As far as calling the Tridentine Mass the Mass of St. Gregory the Great I do so because it has been suggested that this is a better term than Tridentine (which, nevertheless, I am not averse to). To quote Fr. Adrian Fortescue,

“From roughly the time of St. Gregory [d. 604] we have the text of the Mass, its order and arrangement, as a sacred tradition that no one has ventured to touch except in unimportant details.”

-----Fr. Adrian Fortescue, The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy [1912], p. 173

“Our Mass goes back, without essential change, to the age when it first developed out of the oldest liturgy of all. It is still redolent of that liturgy, of the days when Caesar ruled the world and thought he could stamp out the faith of Christ, when our fathers met together before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as to a God. The final result of our inquiry is that, in spite of unsolved problems, in spite of later changes, there is not in Christendom another rite so venerable as ours.”

-----Fr. Adrian Fortescue, The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy [1912], p. 213

http://www.romancatholicism.org/davies-short.htm

 

[Mary_Henley]

I love the Mass… be it the Mass of Bl. Paul Vl or the Mass of St.Pius V!

cuf.org/FileDownloads/dissent.pdf