W
WesleyF
Guest
It’s strange, but I don’t know this basic thing. Help!
- Status
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
T
thistle
Guest
Baptism is in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
B
Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Yes, before Baptism an infant is separated from God because of Original Sin. Baptism removes that barrier and allows the Holy Spirit to enter the child’s soul, the child’s soul is filled with God’s Sanctifying Grace.
C
Christy_Beth
Guest
But that is just the beginning. The parents (or whoever is raising the child) need to remember that they are agreeing to raise the child in the faith. That is, the religious education of the child can’t be ignored. I’ve come across a few who get the child baptised and then leave it at that. They seem to think that going to Mass is enough. Christ needs to be the center of the home.
W
WesleyF
Guest
If the Holy Spirit is received at infant baptism, what happens at confirmation?
W
WesleyF
Guest
Furthermore, how can the Holy Spirit enter the baptised baby without the consent of the baby? The baby has not made the choice of receiving the Spirit, the parents have.
B
Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
We receive the Holy Spirit again at Confirmation for a different purpose.
T
thistle
Guest
Are you sure you are a Catholic?
B
Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Nor did the Baby have a choice of inheriting Original Sin. Parents of course will make many choices for the child until they are capable of making their own.
W
WesleyF
Guest
Well said!
Ok. So it’s because of the parents’ wish that the child receives the Spirit.
I have another question, but I will ask it in another thread. I hope you will answer that one too.
W
WesleyF
Guest
What’s the purpose at baptism and at confirmation? How can the Holy Spirit enter us again if we already have the spirit?
T
thistle
Guest
Read The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Baptism of infants
CCC 1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
CCC 1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.
CCC 1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.
THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION
CCC 1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace. For “by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed.”
Symbols of the Holy Spirit
CCC 694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit’s action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth: just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As “by one Spirit we were all baptized,” so we are also “made to drink of one Spirit.” Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.
CCC 695 Anointing. The symbolism of anointing with oil also signifies the Holy Spirit, to the point of becoming a synonym for the Holy Spirit. In Christian initiation, anointing is the sacramental sign of Confirmation, called “chrismation” in the Churches of the East. Its full force can be grasped only in relation to the primary anointing accomplished by the Holy Spirit, that of Jesus. Christ (in Hebrew “messiah”) means the one “anointed” by God’s Spirit. There were several anointed ones of the Lord in the Old Covenant, pre-eminently King David. But Jesus is God’s Anointed in a unique way: the humanity the Son assumed was entirely anointed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit established him as "Christ."The Virgin Mary conceived Christ by the Holy Spirit who, through the angel, proclaimed him the Christ at his birth, and prompted Simeon to come to the temple to see the Christ of the Lord. The Spirit filled Christ and the power of the Spirit went out from him in his acts of healing and of saving.Finally, it was the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead. Now, fully established as “Christ” in his humanity victorious over death, Jesus pours out the Holy Spirit abundantly until “the saints” constitute - in their union with the humanity of the Son of God - that perfect man “to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”: “the whole Christ,” in St. Augustine’s expression.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
The way God gives his Spirit, is in “installments.”
For instance, according to St. Paul:
The Greek word, “arrabon” means a payment, “given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon). It is used similarly in 2 Cor 5:5 and Eph 1:14.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is both a foretaste and a pledge of future blessedness.
For example, on the evening of the Resurrection, Jesus conferred the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles. Jn 20:22 “He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the holy Spirit.’” However, fifty days later (Acts 2:1-4), on the Jewish feast of Pentecost, the Apostles again received the Holy Spirit. So, it is not at “one-time” deal.
God’s gifts come again and again, as grace upon grace, each occasion for a distinct purpose in accordance with His Providence.
W
WesleyF
Guest
How can that be? The Holy Spirit is a person. How can a person be given in installlments? You either have the Spirit or you don’t. Can the Spirit be divided into parts and given separately?The way God gives his Spirit, is in “installments.”
T
thistle
Guest
You are a Catholic. Haven’t you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It contains a summary of ALL Church teachings.If you don’t have it in book form its free online. I already quoted from it but you made no comment.
E
ekthanatos
Guest
Wesley does have valid questions and ought not be written off so summarily.
Thank you, Thistle, for referring to the relevant passages in the Catechism. It’s most useful to have that as reference, but I also don’t think that the catechism here directly answer’s Wesley’s previous answers, either.
As an Eastern Catholic, I have a bit of a different perspective based on our own unique liturgical life. Correct me where I err, but I’d like to draw on my experience of that liturgical life to add that perspective.
As a preliminary, in my tradition (the Byzantine) infants are exorcized, profess faith through their sponsors, baptized, chrismated (confirmed), and receive the Most Holy Eucharist all in one rite. Unlike in the Latin west, they don’t receive one part of Christian initation as infants and then wait until age of reason to receive the rest and then become accepted into full communion through the eucharist.
Now I’ll move to my thoughts on the matter.
First, I don’t think that it’s entirely accurate to say that the Holy Spirit is given twice, once in baptism, and once in chrismation/confirmation.
The Holy Spirit is certainly involved as an acting agent in Holy Baptism and the Catechism that Thistle quotes plainly indicates that the water of baptism is a “symbol” of the Holy Spirit, but I don’t think that this means that the person who is baptized receives the Holy Spirit in the definitive sense in that action. In the baptismal liturgy (and I quote from my own rite), the priest prays that “That this water may be sanctified by the power, action and descent of the Holy Spirit… that this water may become for him (her) the washing of rebirth; for the forgiveness of sins and a garment of incorruption.” So the Holy Spirit acts on the sacramental elements here, and upon us who participate in the sacramental liturgy, bringing us mystically into union with the saving power of Christ’s capitulation of these actions, just like in the Holy and Divine Liturgy when we pray that the Holy Spirit may descend “upon these gifts here spread forth… making them truly the immaculate body of the Lord… and the precious blood of our Lord… changing them by your Holy Spirit.”
So then the Holy Spirit acts, but in a different way than in chrismation, on my reading. I think that the Holy Scriptures back this up. Take the book of Acts for example. In Acts Chapter 8 versus 15ff we read:
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
So there you have it: the early disciples had been baptized, but the apostles still came down to chrismate (confirm them) “that they might receive the Holy Ghost,” “only” being baptized.
Of course, this may very well be splitting hairs since baptism and chrismation are really one liturgical act. They are theologically one, and are only temporally, but not theologically, separated in the Latin rite and here with the Samaritans in Acts 8.
But in any case, here is what the priest prays in the baptismal liturgy (again, my own rite) after the infant is immersed three times in the waters of baptism:
“Though we are unworthy, You have given us a blessed cleansing in holy water and a divine sanctification through holy anointing. Now, to Your newly enlightened servant, You have been pleased to give new birth by water and the Spirit, for the forgiveness of his (her) sins, whether committed willingly or unwillingly. Therefore, 0 Master and gracious King of all, grant him (her) also the seal of the gift of Your holy, almighty and adorable Spirit and the communion of the holy Body and precious Blood of Your Christ.
Then, the priest chrismates the child while saying several times, “the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit” to which the congregation shouts, “Seal!”
In the prayer we see the theological unity of the one liturgical act of initiation: birth is “new birth by water and spirit” both as a hendiadys, it seems. Yet the prayer also parses out distinct elements: “cleansing in holy water,” “sanctification through holy anointing [chrismation],” and the “communion of the holy Body and precious Blood of Your Christ.”
Thank you, Thistle, for referring to the relevant passages in the Catechism. It’s most useful to have that as reference, but I also don’t think that the catechism here directly answer’s Wesley’s previous answers, either.
As an Eastern Catholic, I have a bit of a different perspective based on our own unique liturgical life. Correct me where I err, but I’d like to draw on my experience of that liturgical life to add that perspective.
As a preliminary, in my tradition (the Byzantine) infants are exorcized, profess faith through their sponsors, baptized, chrismated (confirmed), and receive the Most Holy Eucharist all in one rite. Unlike in the Latin west, they don’t receive one part of Christian initation as infants and then wait until age of reason to receive the rest and then become accepted into full communion through the eucharist.
Now I’ll move to my thoughts on the matter.
First, I don’t think that it’s entirely accurate to say that the Holy Spirit is given twice, once in baptism, and once in chrismation/confirmation.
The Holy Spirit is certainly involved as an acting agent in Holy Baptism and the Catechism that Thistle quotes plainly indicates that the water of baptism is a “symbol” of the Holy Spirit, but I don’t think that this means that the person who is baptized receives the Holy Spirit in the definitive sense in that action. In the baptismal liturgy (and I quote from my own rite), the priest prays that “That this water may be sanctified by the power, action and descent of the Holy Spirit… that this water may become for him (her) the washing of rebirth; for the forgiveness of sins and a garment of incorruption.” So the Holy Spirit acts on the sacramental elements here, and upon us who participate in the sacramental liturgy, bringing us mystically into union with the saving power of Christ’s capitulation of these actions, just like in the Holy and Divine Liturgy when we pray that the Holy Spirit may descend “upon these gifts here spread forth… making them truly the immaculate body of the Lord… and the precious blood of our Lord… changing them by your Holy Spirit.”
So then the Holy Spirit acts, but in a different way than in chrismation, on my reading. I think that the Holy Scriptures back this up. Take the book of Acts for example. In Acts Chapter 8 versus 15ff we read:
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
So there you have it: the early disciples had been baptized, but the apostles still came down to chrismate (confirm them) “that they might receive the Holy Ghost,” “only” being baptized.
Of course, this may very well be splitting hairs since baptism and chrismation are really one liturgical act. They are theologically one, and are only temporally, but not theologically, separated in the Latin rite and here with the Samaritans in Acts 8.
But in any case, here is what the priest prays in the baptismal liturgy (again, my own rite) after the infant is immersed three times in the waters of baptism:
“Though we are unworthy, You have given us a blessed cleansing in holy water and a divine sanctification through holy anointing. Now, to Your newly enlightened servant, You have been pleased to give new birth by water and the Spirit, for the forgiveness of his (her) sins, whether committed willingly or unwillingly. Therefore, 0 Master and gracious King of all, grant him (her) also the seal of the gift of Your holy, almighty and adorable Spirit and the communion of the holy Body and precious Blood of Your Christ.
Then, the priest chrismates the child while saying several times, “the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit” to which the congregation shouts, “Seal!”
In the prayer we see the theological unity of the one liturgical act of initiation: birth is “new birth by water and spirit” both as a hendiadys, it seems. Yet the prayer also parses out distinct elements: “cleansing in holy water,” “sanctification through holy anointing [chrismation],” and the “communion of the holy Body and precious Blood of Your Christ.”
E
ekthanatos
Guest
Second, in my own private interpretation, I don’t think that it’s on the basis of the parents’ faith that the infant receives the regeneration of the water and the Holy Spirit. When the catechism says that “Christian parents will recognize that this practice * also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them,” I read this rather as saying that the infant can be baptised, chrismated, and brought into full communion with the Church by virtue of the fact that the infant Is now in the ecclesia domestica that his or her parents provide for the nurturance of the child’s faith so that his or her nascent faith won’t be later shipwrecked.
But you can’t be shipwrecked if you aren’t first out to sea, so when I was myself a catechumen ten years in the Church preparing for my own baptism, I was taught that infants are admitted to the Holy Eucharist by virtue of their own faith in a sense, because faith is a mystical thing. Infants indeed have faith according to what I’ve been taught in my own Eastern Catholic tradition, though not a rational or self-reflective faith (like faith is often thought of in the West). When the curse is made null for them they are restored to the state of Adam and Eve before the fall: only this time, unlike the old Adam and Eve, they now have an opportunity to grow to maturity and reach perfection surrounded by a supportive community and with access to the Holy Mysteries with God himself dwelling in them.
Perhaps this is a different perspective just in the Eastern quarters of the Catholic Church. I once heard that in the Latin West it is believed that Adam and Eve were already perfect or mature before the fall. In the East, we usually think of them as spiritual infants.*
But you can’t be shipwrecked if you aren’t first out to sea, so when I was myself a catechumen ten years in the Church preparing for my own baptism, I was taught that infants are admitted to the Holy Eucharist by virtue of their own faith in a sense, because faith is a mystical thing. Infants indeed have faith according to what I’ve been taught in my own Eastern Catholic tradition, though not a rational or self-reflective faith (like faith is often thought of in the West). When the curse is made null for them they are restored to the state of Adam and Eve before the fall: only this time, unlike the old Adam and Eve, they now have an opportunity to grow to maturity and reach perfection surrounded by a supportive community and with access to the Holy Mysteries with God himself dwelling in them.
Perhaps this is a different perspective just in the Eastern quarters of the Catholic Church. I once heard that in the Latin West it is believed that Adam and Eve were already perfect or mature before the fall. In the East, we usually think of them as spiritual infants.*
M
Marc_Hanna
Guest
While, yes, the Holy Spirit is the downpayment, it does not mean that we will receive more payments of the Holy Spirit but rather the completion of payment is eternal salvation. The Greek word αρραβωνα does not imply the nature of the other payments or how many more payments there will be, neither does the context of the passage. As far as Jn 20:20, the apostles did not receive the spirit at that time but rather it was made available: the verb form (λαβετε - “receive ye”) is continuous passive, and does not confirm that they received the spirit at that time but in its figurative usage it is an “offering”.The way God gives his Spirit, is in “installments.”
For instance, according to St. Paul:
The Greek word, “arrabon” means a payment, “given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon). It is used similarly in 2 Cor 5:5 and Eph 1:14.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is both a foretaste and a pledge of future blessedness.
For example, on the evening of the Resurrection, Jesus conferred the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles. Jn 20:22 “He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the holy Spirit.’” However, fifty days later (Acts 2:1-4), on the Jewish feast of Pentecost, the Apostles again received the Holy Spirit. So, it is not at “one-time” deal.
God’s gifts come again and again, as grace upon grace, each occasion for a distinct purpose in accordance with His Providence.
Baptism, confirmation and communion are a symbol of the Holy Trinity: when we are babtized we are cleansed of our original sin and are received back to the Father; when we are confirmed we receive te Holy Spirit, and when we receive first communion we receive the Son and continually do so every time afterward.
The early practice of the Catholic Church was to perform all three sacraments all in the same day, and indeed before the “sacramental formula” was canonized much later, baptism and confirmation were hardly considered separate sacraments. Many Catholic parishes today are reverting back to this practice and understanding.
W
WesleyF
Guest
I read what you had posted but it did not help in answering my question.
- Status