Do Baptists believe Jesus drank wine or grape juice?

[Gingersnaps4]

In all seriousness though, the other issue is that alcohol isn’t immediateky mind-altering. It is a sin to become reeling drunk. But just to partake in alcohol itself is no sin. I believe that the church has said that marijuana is sinful, but I could be mistaken on that.

 

[Wannano]

When the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles, they were accused of having too much of the new wine, for Pentecost marked the beginning of the grape harvest. Thus, even new wine was somewhat alcoholic, enough so that you could get drunk from drinking a large amount of it.

You raise an interesting point for sure.

 

[Wannano]

In all seriousness though, the other issue is that alcohol isn’t immediateky mind-altering. It is a sin to become reeling drunk. But just to partake in alcohol itself is no sin. I believe that the church has said that marijuana is sinful, but I could be mistaken on that.

I don’t think most people enjoy absolute drunkenness…mostly just like to loosen their inhibitions a bit.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Right. It’s not a sin to drink and have minor effects though. If you drink to where you can’t properly make decisions that would be considered “in excess”.

 

[Wannano]

Right. It’s not a sin to drink and have minor effects though. If you drink to where you can’t properly make decisions that would be considered “in excess”.

I believe it to be a fine line and one that is different for each person…often leading to a lower standard of interaction.

I do wonder why some who are enjoying the party a lot often say to someone who drinks little or none " come on, are you religious or something?"

 

[Gingersnaps4]

I believe it to be a fine line and one that is different for each person…often leading to a lower standard of interaction.

I do wonder why some who are enjoying the party a lot often say to someone who drinks little or none " come on, are you religious or something?"

Of course everyone must use personal judgement, and some people can’t drink as much as others without becoming drunk. I personally couldn’t drink the same amount as my husband without becoming drunk, he weighs twice as much as me and is a foot taller. I have family who actually lack a liver enzyme for processing alcohol, and they can drink hardy any without turning bright red and having a bad hangover.

I’ve personally never heard that from someone drinking a lot… Where I live it’s more like “are you the designated driver?” Or “have an early morning?” Maybe it depends on the religion or denomination of who you are with, for comments like that? Alcohol is inherently good, not bad, and is meant to be enjoyed, in moderation.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I believe it to be a fine line and one that is different for each person…often leading to a lower standard of interaction.

I do wonder why some who are enjoying the party a lot often say to someone who drinks little or none " come on, are you religious or something?"

Of course everyone must use personal judgement, and some people can’t drink as much as others without becoming drunk. I personally couldn’t drink the same amount as my husband without becoming drunk, he weighs twice as much as me and is a foot taller. I have family who actually lack a liver enzyme for processing alcohol, and they can drink hardy any without turning bright red and having a bad hangover.

I’ve personally never heard that from someone drinking a lot… Where I live it’s more like “are you the designated driver?” Or “have an early morning?” Maybe it depends on the religion or denomination of who you are with, for comments like that? Alcohol is inherently good, not bad, and is meant to be enjoyed, in moderation.

I sort of think you hit the nail on the head. Moderation…is the key in so many things: food, alcohol, jokes, flirtation, sports on and on…

 

[dochawk]

Thus, even new wine was somewhat alcoholic, enough so that you could get drunk from drinking a large amount of it.

Most of the fermentation occurs within the first week or two, at least with supplemental yeast. Add a few days, tops, for just having fermented.

And if you drink it before it finishes fermenting, it will be at least a tiny bit fizzy, and yeasty.

There is a main active fermentation, after which only trace amounts occur.

 

[Sarcelle]

Applies to video games too

 

[Nicene]

There was no such thing as grape juice in the ancient world. The first grape juice was made in 1869 using pasteurization to stop the enzyme process in grapes. Thomas Welch invented it during the temperance period so they wouldn’t have to serve wine at their services. 15 years later he founded Welch’s grape juice company. As far as wine being weak that is a myth, only the Romans used water to dilute their wine, everyone else pressed their grapes as is with no added water.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[BartholomewB]

By the time Thomas Welch came along, the Baptist Church had been in existence for 200 years or more. At that time, did they use wine at their Communion services just like everyone else?

 

[ltwin]

From Methodist history: Controversy, Communion, & Welch’s Grape Juice

(Not about Baptists, but I figure they would have had the same sort of debates and solutions)

No suitable alternative​

One solution was to squeeze grapes during the week and serve the juice before it fermented, but grapes were not readily available to every church.

“Lots of churches just didn’t have communion when grapes were out of season,” reports Roger Scull, also a church historian at First United Methodist Church of Vineland.

Some creative communion stewards chose to make their own unfermented sacramental wine. One recipe called for adding a pound of hand-squashed raisin pulp—dried grapes—to a quart of boiling water. Later in the process, the “winemaker” was to add an egg white. Doesn’t that sound delicious?

Some churches substituted water for wine. Many in the temperance movement declared water the only proper drink. Jesus’ miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana (John 2:1-12) seemed to give the practice a biblical justification.

Most churches, however, simply continued to use wine. Not only did it solve the storage problem, it resolved another issue. Many believed the biblical mandate called for the use of wine, and viewed the sacrament as an exception to temperance.

Others claimed the wine used at the Last Supper must have been unfermented—not a widely held understanding today—and insisted on receiving the same.

The sometimes heated debate continued for decades.

In 1864, the General Conference of The Methodist Episcopal Church entered the conversation when they approved a report from the Temperance Committee that recommended “the pure juice of the grape be used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper.”

 

[BartholomewB]

Later in the process, the “winemaker” was to add an egg white.

No kidding!

 

[adgloriam]

Hey @ltwin, so I feel brutally betrayed by the church at this point…I mean, radically abandoned. Like, completely excluded - institutionally shunned, brutally stonewalled.

And what’s worse, it’s not a feeling. IT’S A FACT MAN !!!

I suppose this is a precious thing in a way.

Right before Easter when Christ was about to be crucified and abandoned by his apostles.

[What you have been addressing in this thread is the institutional regulation and monopoly over the means of salvation and how that monopoly is socially regulated and hierarchically controlled.

So you see, be they catholic or protestant, the above holds.]

 

[ltwin]

Hey @ltwin, so I feel brutally betrayed by the church at this point…I mean, radically abandoned. Like, completely excluded - institutionally shunned, brutally stonewalled.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I will pray for you.

 

[adgloriam]

adgloriam:

Hey @ltwin, so I feel brutally betrayed by the church at this point…I mean, radically abandoned. Like, completely excluded - institutionally shunned, brutally stonewalled.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I will pray for you.

Thank you @ltwin I truly appreciate it and I have faith in the efficaciousness of prayer.

 

[Nicene]

Yes:

John Smyth, founder of the baptist movement:

1. That in the outward supper which only baptized persons must partake, there is presented and figured before the eyes of the pen-itent and faithful, that spiritual supper, which Christ maketh of His flesh and blood: which is crucified and shed for the remis-sion of sins (as the bread is broken and the wine poured forth), and which is eaten and drunken (as is the bread and wine bodily) only by those which are flesh, of His flesh, and bone of His bone:

6Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, 109-10.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

Didn’t read the thread here, so sorry if I’m repeating what someone may have already said. Your answer as to whether Baptists or other Protestants think Jesus drank grape juice instead of wine is that it depends.

I grew up Pentecostal- also spent time as a Baptist and went to a Christian church (communion always had Welch’s grape juice). I was raised in a teetotalling home, wherein drinking alcohol was always considered a negative thing. However, we had a pretty straightforward reading of (some) scriptures, and we considered that when scripture mentioned wine it meant the alcoholic stuff, but that in that time and culture alcohol wasn’t abused as it is today.

But, in the same church, we had people teaching that it was really grape juice, because my sister got into it with her Sunday School teacher over that very topic. She got kicked out of the class and the teacher approached my parents about it- thinking my sister would get into trouble for believing and advocating that real wine was involved in the miracle at Cana (she didn’t).

So- there is sometimes disagreement over this topic- but everyone in such churches adheres to the idea that alcohol is generally to be avoided and that communion should never have real wine. Sometimes, when you join such churches, they make you sign an agreement that you won’t drink alcohol.

 

[BartholomewB]

Thank you, @CoffeeFanatic. That’s a fascinating insight into the mindset of “Bible-believing” Protestants of a certain kind. The Sunday School incident is most revealing! Your sister was kicked out, in fact, for saying that John is telling the truth about the Wedding at Cana.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Thanks for your reply. Wow, I can’t believe a church would make someone sign an agreement that they wouldn’t drink alcohol!