Do Baptists believe Jesus drank wine or grape juice?

[Wannano]

Thanks for your reply. Wow, I can’t believe a church would make someone sign an agreement that they wouldn’t drink alcohol!

I think if we really desiring to be Christian in our attitudes we need to extend graciousness to people who think differently than ourselves. I have never heard of that either, but if that is what they want to practice, then who am I to judge? Truthfully, those same people probably couldn’t see the logic in a Church saying it’s members were not allowed to eat meat on Fridays either.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Our practice is part of a fast, however, on certain days of the year.
That is different than asking someone to sign
an agreement.
I have no problem with those against consuming alcohol and choose that as a lifestyle and if someone were to join a church
and knowing they do not believe in consuming alcohol and choose to join that type of church, but signing an agreement?

 

[Wannano]

I can only imagine that it gives cohesiveness to the group and makes it easier to confront someone who is schismatic over the issue.

 

[Wannano]

Thank you, @CoffeeFanatic. That’s a fascinating insight into the mindset of “Bible-believing” Protestants of a certain kind. The Sunday School incident is most revealing! Your sister was kicked out, in fact, for saying that John is telling the truth about the Wedding at Cana.

It might be insight into the mindset of whom we might call "weirdos " although it is just as plausible that the student was asked to leave because of the disruptive or adverserial manner in which the student presented her viewpoint. Without being there we can only surmise the truth of the matter.

Also it occurs to me that since the parents did not side with the teacher it may mean that we have gained insight into the mindset of only one individual.

 

[BartholomewB]

it is just as plausible that the student was asked to leave because of the disruptive or adverserial manner in which the student presented her viewpoint. Without being there we can only surmise the truth of the matter.

I see no justification for your rejection of @CoffeeFanatic’s account of the episode. There were five witnesses to the original incident and to the ensuing consultations: @CoffeeFanatic, her sister, their mother, their father, and the Sunday School teacher. Which of the five do you suspect of bearing false witness?

 

[Wannano]

None, I am not rejecting anyone’s account. I am just not sure about all the conclusions drawn from the episode.

 

[BartholomewB]

Which conclusions, specifically, are you not sure about?

 

[Wannano]

Which conclusions, specifically, are you not sure about?

Actually yours! I am not sure that I agree that it is a fascinating insight into the mindset of “Bible Believing” Protestants of a certain kind.

 

[BartholomewB]

That’s okay, then. Peace.

 

[ltwin]

I have no problem with those against consuming alcohol and choose that as a lifestyle and if someone were to join a church
and knowing they do not believe in consuming alcohol and choose to join that type of church, but signing an agreement?

I can’t speak to that case, but many times these abstinence pledges are part of the church covenant that people agree to when becoming members. Capital Hill Baptist Church had this prohibition in an older version of their church covenant (they don’t anymore):

Having been led, as we believe by the Spirit of God, to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior and, on profession of our faith, having been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, we do now, in the presence of God and this assembly, most solemnly and joyfully enter into covenant with one another as one body in Christ.

We engage, therefore, by the aid of the Holy Spirit, to walk together in Christian love; to strive for the advancement of this church, in knowledge, holiness and comfort; to promote its prosperity and spirituality; to sustain its worship, ordinances, discipline, and doctrines; to contribute cheerfully and regularly to the support of the ministry, the expenses of the church, the relief of the poor, and the spread of the Gospel through all nations.

We also engage to maintain family and secret devotions; to religiously educate our children; to seek the salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world. to be just in our dealings, faithful in our engagements, and exemplary in our deportment; to avoid all tattling, backbiting and excessive anger; to abstain from the sale of, and use of intoxicating drinks as a beverage; and to be zealous in our efforts to advance the kingdom of our Savior.

We further engage to watch over one another in brotherly love; to remember one another in prayer; to aid one another in sickness and distress, to cultivate Christian sympathy in feeling and Christian courtesy in speech; to be slow to take offense, but always ready for reconciliation and mindful of the rules of our Savior, to secure it without delay.

We moreover engage that when we remove from this place, we will, as soon as possible, unite with some other church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God’s word.

While I think there is still a lot of cultural prejudice in some places against Christians drinking alcohol, I do think people more or less realize that there is not any strong scriptural justification for morally binding prohibitions against alcohol. Capital Hill Baptist’s change of its covenant is one example. I can tell in my area there is more nuance in the preaching on this issue–not an endorsement of drinking alcohol but rather warnings that we should not judge those who do.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think if we really desiring to be Christian in our attitudes we need to extend graciousness to people who think differently than ourselves.

Speaking as one who had Baptist, Methodist and Irish Catholic grandparents and Presbyterians and Reformed Presbyterians (as opposed to alcohol as Baptists, if not more) along with Irish Catholics on my husband’s side, if somebody doesn’t want to drink for any reason, religious, medical, or just doesn’t like it, I don’t care. Just don’t lord it over people who do or act like they are all on the verge of alcoholism or hell. And if you can’t enjoy a social evening out with people who are drinking a few drinks (a FEW, as in not to the point of drunk) without getting bothered, then that’s your choice, but don’t complain or act holier than thou about it. Especially at weddings or wakes.

Everyone in my family on both sides drank and in my husband’s family too (the RPs had died off). No one had an alcohol abuse problem. I will probably be out this evening with friends who may have a beer or two. I may have a beer and I may skip it because it is a work night. I won’t be looking down the nose at my friend if he drinks.

 

[lanman87]

Capital Hill Baptist Church had this prohibition in an older version of their church covenant (they don’t anymore):

The rural Baptist church I grew up in had the same (or almost the same) church covenant. Many Baptist churches have removed or changed the language on “intoxicating drinks as a beverage”. But you can still find it in mainly rural/ultra conservative churches.

Over the past 15 years or so I’ve changed my attitude from the old time Baptist-all drinks are evil-mentality to a more moderate approach. I realized that the total ban on alcoholic beverages was a Pharisee mindset where we took a truth (drunkeness is a sin) and expanded it beyond what the Bible teaches. Just as the Pharisees were trying to be more holy by coming up with extra rules and rituals that weren’t taught in the Old Testament we Baptist (and other American Evangelicals) have come up with extra rules that weren’t taught in the New Testament.

I still have a hard time mowing the yard on Sunday, even if I spent three hours in church that morning and it is supposed to rain for the next week. And you can never go fishing or hunting on a Sunday.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Thanks for posting that covenant. Since I have only belonged to 3 churches in my life -
Episcopal, Anglican and Catholic I have no
background in mainline protestant churches,
pentecostal or non-denominational and all 3
of these churches have unleavened hosts and wine when
fulfilling the command of Jesus “do this in
remembrance of me”.
I grew up around alcohol all my life, but I am neither a social drinker or private drinker.
I have no problem with people who want to
join that kind of church what happens if they get reported to a pastor that they were seen
drinking at a wedding or drinking at a restaurant? Are they reprimanded or immediately asked to leave?

 

[ltwin]

I have no problem with people who want to
join that kind of church what happens if they get reported to a pastor that they were seen
drinking at a wedding or drinking at a restaurant? Are they reprimanded or immediately asked to leave?

It depends on the church and how strict they are and also on the pastor and the approach he feels would be most helpful to the person.

No one would be asked to leave (unless its a very dysfunctional church, but in any case how would banning them from attending church help the situation?). They might be excommunicated or "disfellowshipped"at worst but they would still be allowed to attend services (how else would they be won back??). They might be talked to by the pastor as a first step. If they continued, they might be disciplined in other ways, such as stripped of any kind of leadership role or something. For really serious offenses, a last step might be having privileges of membership revoked, such as voting and participating in the Lord’s Supper–but you’d still be allowed inside the church I would think.

But unless the person is a preacher or some person of responsibility in most churches probably nothing happens to them, since most people wouldn’t report it to their pastor. They might just gossip about them or more helpfully keep it to themselves and pray for them.

At my church we joked for years about a member who frequently seen buying beer and always said it was for his mother–as if that made a difference.

Also, we had a member of the board who we all knew liked to drink a glass of wine every now and then, and it was frequently joked had a wine cellar . . .

But then again, we’ve never been dogmatic about the no alcohol rule even though it’s strongly embedded in our church culture. If someone approached my pastor to report someone, he’d probably instruct them to address the beam in their own eye.

Now, decades and decades ago, there were people in the music ministry who were asked to take a break because they smoked cigarettes, but I don’t recall anyone being disciplined over alcohol.

 

[Rosie11]

I went to a light and life mission church once they drank ribena and a passed around a loaf of bread and everyone tore a piece off it wasn’t even unleavened

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I think if we really desiring to be Christian in our attitudes we need to extend graciousness to people who think differently than ourselves.

Speaking as one who had Baptist, Methodist and Irish Catholic grandparents and Presbyterians and Reformed Presbyterians (as opposed to alcohol as Baptists, if not more) along with Irish Catholics on my husband’s side, if somebody doesn’t want to drink for any reason, religious, medical, or just doesn’t like it, I don’t care. Just don’t lord it over people who do or act like they are all on the verge of alcoholism or hell. And if you can’t enjoy a social evening out with people who are drinking a few drinks (a FEW, as in not to the point of drunk) without getting bothered, then that’s your choice, but don’t complain or act holier than thou about it. Especially at weddings or wakes.

Everyone in my family on both sides drank and in my husband’s family too (the RPs had died off). No one had an alcohol abuse problem. I will probably be out this evening with friends who may have a beer or two. I may have a beer and I may skip it because it is a work night. I won’t be looking down the nose at my friend if he drinks.

If you got the impression that I would condemn you for having a drink I am sure a failure at communicating.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s not you doing the condemning over the drink. The point is, most of us do not care if people ever take a drink or not, it’s the attitude they cop about not drinking and about people who do drink socially that can be annoying.

 

[Wannano]

It’s not you doing the condemning over the drink. The point is, most of us do not care if people ever take a drink or not, it’s the attitude they cop about not drinking and about people who do drink socially that can be annoying.

Thank you for clarifying that. It felt like your post was directed at me. I like a glass of wine occasionally but think beer is over rated. Just my personal preference. The point you made that most people do not care if others drink or not has not actually been my experience. I think the attitude problem is manifested both ways many times.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve spent many, many years, several decades at this point, going to bars, primarily to see bands that play in the bars. On most of these outings, I didn’t drink. I avoided drinking through my entire 20s, and during a couple periods of my life when I was drinking regularly (usually to cope with a death or other bad circumstance), I was doing most of it at home because drinking out at bars is usually expensive, often unsafe, and often inconvenient (you have to keep running to the lavatory, there is no place to lie down and rest when you feel relaxed, etc.) I am back to rarely drinking again now because for various physical and life reasons I don’t feel like doing it.

I cannot remember anyone ever pushing me to have a drink or saying anything about my not drinking, except for my 21st birthday when my then-boyfriend and another good friend decided I should have some drinks because it was my 21st birthday and I could have them legally. Apart from that one night, literally no one has ever cared. I guess it’s all in who you know.

 

[dochawk]

One recipe called for adding a pound of hand-squashed raisin pulp—dried grapes—to a quart of boiling water. Later in the process, the “winemaker” was to add an egg white.

There are many recipes for non-grape wine and others that use raisins to introduce yeast . . .

Later in the process, the “winemaker” was to add an egg white.

Check out the recipes from the 17th and 18th century for “cock ale”. They tend to include a whole rooster (thus the name), and one I’ve seen also included a significant amount of ham, among other modernly unexpected ingredients . . . :crazy_face:

I still have a hard time mowing the yard on Sunday,

For me, mowing the lawn is rest, which is part of the reason I keep one here in the desert.

So it usually happens on a Sunday, with me barefoot behind a self-propelled mower, stopping every couple of laps for a sip from a far lighter beer than I would normally drink which is resting in a half-gallon thermos mug of ice (hey, it really is 110F when I do this a lot of the time. And Heineken/St. Pauli’s Girl/etc. are my idea of light “lawn mower beer” !)

but think beer is over rated.

Beer is a “hops delivery system” I wouldn’t miss beer itself if it disappeared from the planet tomorrow, but not having hops would make me cry . . . both the bitter taste, and the aroma . . . (neither of which you find in typical american beer).