Do Baptists have Sacraments?

[Esdra]

Hi,

I know that the Reformed Evangelical Churches have two Sacraments, the Baptism and the Lord’s Supper (although, they don’t believe in the Real Presence.)

No, I have talked to my Baptist pastor for quite a while, also about the Sacraments and he said that Baptism is not a Sacrament and not needed for salvation, but only an outward sign that you have enthrusted your life Jesus and are willing to walk with Him.
So, I conclude that Baptism is no really a sacrament…

Same with the Lord’s Supper, “It’s a meal in remembrence what Jesus has done for us on the cross.” I think he even said that it’s not a sacrament.

Any (former) Baptists or Pentecostals here that can help me with this question?

 

[RyanBlack]

Baptists refer to baptism and communion as ordinances, rather than as sacraments.

 

[Little_One0307]

Nope.

Here’s a thread that is similar that is posted on the Baptist Board with their points of view on it. I found it pretty much as to what I remember. They define the word Sacrament differently than we do, so in the strictest sense no.

baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=44848

Little One0307

NOTE: If I did wrong in posting a thread to another forum completely different from this forum, please let me know if you are a moderator.

 

[Jesus_123]

+The Catholic Church has a different perspective . . . they recognize and honor Christian baptism . . . *no matter what Christian denomination is involved *. . . as a Sacrament . . . which is a baptism using the :bible1: Biblical . . . **Trinitarian formula . . . where the individual is baptised **:

"In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
CATECHISM
**OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH **

CHAPTER ONE
THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

1213
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word."5

I. What Is this Sacrament Called?

1214
This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to “plunge” or “immerse”; the “plunge” into the water symbolizes the catechumen’s burial into Christ’s death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6

1215
This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

1216
… Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty;

**

**Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.10​

Christ’s Baptism

1223
All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfillment in Christ Jesus. He begins his public life after having himself baptized by St. John the Baptist in the Jordan.17 After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: :bible1:*** “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”***18

Baptism in the Church

1226
From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: :bible1: ***“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”***26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: :bible1: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer :bible1: ***“was baptized at once, with all his family.”***28

1227
According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him:

:bible1: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.29

The baptized have :bible1: "put on Christ."30 Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.31

1228
Hence Baptism is a bath of water in which the “imperishable seed” of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect.32 St. Augustine says of Baptism: "The word is brought to the material element, and it becomes a sacrament."33

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271
Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

. . all for Jesus+
. . . sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . guide and direct+​

 

[Jesus_123]

+There are only two of the Seven (7) Sacraments in our wonderful Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church which are recognized by the Church as not requiring an ordained Catholic priest . . . the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Marriage . . . however . . . the Church’s position re the requirements for a marriage to be recognized as valid . . . under Holy Mother Church’s Canon Law . . . there are very specific requirements that must be met . . .

+Below is a portion of the Code of Canon Law pertinent to this thread . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
TITLE VII: MARRIAGE (Cann. 1055 - 1058)

**Can. 1055 §1 **The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of their whole life, and which of its own very nature is ordered to the well-being of the spouses and to the procreation and upbringing of children, has, between the baptised, been raised by **Christ the Lord **to the dignity of a sacrament.

§2 **Consequently, a valid marriage contract cannot exist between **baptised ****persons without its being by that very fact a sacrament.

Can. 1056 The essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility; in Christian marriage they acquire a distinctive firmness by reason of the sacrament.
**
Can. 1057 §1** A marriage is brought into being by the lawfully manifested consent of persons who are legally capable. This consent cannot be supplied by any human power.

§2 Matrimonial consent is an act of will by which a man and a woman by an irrevocable covenant mutually give and accept one another for the purpose of establishing a marriage.

**Can. 1058 **All can contract marriage who are not prohibited by law.​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+​

 

[Esdra]

+The Catholic Church has a different perspective . . . they recognize and honor Christian baptism . . . *no matter what Christian denomination is involved *. . . as a Sacrament . . . which is a baptism using the :bible1: Biblical . . . **Trinitarian formula . . . where the individual is baptised **:

"In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
CATECHISM
**OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH **

CHAPTER ONE
THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

1213
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word."5

I. What Is this Sacrament Called?

1214
This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to “plunge” or “immerse”; the “plunge” into the water symbolizes the catechumen’s burial into Christ’s death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6

1215
This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

1216
… Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty;

**

**Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.10​

Christ’s Baptism

1223
All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfillment in Christ Jesus. He begins his public life after having himself baptized by St. John the Baptist in the Jordan.17 After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: :bible1:*** “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”***18

Baptism in the Church

1226
From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: :bible1: ***“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”***26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: :bible1: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer :bible1: ***“was baptized at once, with all his family.”***28

1227
According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him:

:bible1: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.29

The baptized have :bible1: "put on Christ."30 Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.31

​

Okay, thank you for posting. That’d be the Catholic position then! ;=)

Hey, you really like it colourful, eh? ^^

Well, I guess that the Catechism of the RCC is written in Latin and then translated into all languages, right? My question is now: What’s the most recent Catechism? From which year? - Because then I could read myself, if something interests me.

in Christ,

 

[SteveVH]

Okay, thank you for posting. That’d be the Catholic position then! ;=)

Hey, you really like it colourful, eh? ^^

Well, I guess that the Catechism of the RCC is written in Latin and then translated into all languages, right? My question is now: What’s the most recent Catechism? From which year? - Because then I could read myself, if something interests me.

in Christ,

There have been only two additions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the second of which was published in the year 2000 I think. If you want to read from the Catechism, any online version would be the most recent addition. There really wasn’t anything substantial changed in the secend addition, just a better translation.

 

[Jesus_123]

+:compcoff: **Link to The Catechism of the Catholic Church: **usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.shtml

. . . all for Jesus+​

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Okay, thank you for posting. That’d be the Catholic position then! ;=)

Hey, you really like it colourful, eh? ^^

Well, I guess that the Catechism of the RCC is written in Latin and then translated into all languages, right? My question is now: What’s the most recent Catechism? From which year? - Because then I could read myself, if something interests me.

in Christ,

As I recall, the Catechism was first published in French and then translated into various other languages. Then the Latin text was prepared and then re-published in various languages to conform to the Latin text.

A (not very comparative but) I think complete list of the changes from the first to second editions is here: scborromeo.org/ccc/updates.htm

 

[Esdra]

+:compcoff: **Link to The Catechism of the Catholic Church: **usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.shtml

. . . all for Jesus+​

Well, actually I was asking because I wanted the German catechism.

Thanks Dave Noon for the link, I’ll check out the differences.

I visited the vatican website and found there that the Catechism itself is not available in German there (but in English) - in German only the Compendium is available. Link.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .I have talked to my Baptist pastor for quite a while, also about the Sacraments and he said that Baptism is not a Sacrament and not needed for salvation, but only an outward sign that you have enthrusted your life Jesus and are willing to walk with Him. . . .

Esdra,
I am a former Southern Baptist.

The SBC believes Baptism is a church ordinance, not a Sacrament. Southern Baptists do not believe any Graces are imparted in Baptism or the Lord’s Supper. In fact, Baptism performed as a Sacrament is not recognized as valid, even if Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So, if you were Baptized by a Church that believes Baptism is a Sacrament and Graces are imparted, such as the forgiveness of sin; you must be Baptized again in the Southern Baptist Church.

Southern Baptists believe salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification, and none of these are related to Baptism or the Lord’s Supper. See The Baptist Faith and Message, IV. Salvation, Link: sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i

There is an interesting “position” paper on the Southern Baptist Convention website, though it has not yet been adopted by the board of trustees. Final editing is to be made by the chairman of the board.

Southern Baptist Convention Link: imb.org/main/news/details.asp?LanguageID=1709&StoryID=3840

**Position Paper Concerning the IMB Guideline on Baptism
a. Baptism is a church ordinance.

"Baptism must take place in a church that practices believer’s baptism by immersion alone, does not view baptism as sacramental or regenerative, and a church that embraces the doctrine of the security of the believer.

b. A candidate who has not been baptized in a Southern Baptist church or in a church which meets the standards listed above is expected to request baptism in his/her Southern Baptist church as a testimony of identification with the system of belief held by Southern Baptist churches."**

Baptist beliefs also rule out infant Baptism. There have been some interesting CAF threads on this topic in the past.

Ironically, Southern Baptists look to Scripture for their beliefs. Yet, Holy Scripture clearly connects the forgiveness of sins and even the gift of the Holy Spirit with Baptism. Baptism is not simply a symbolic act. Graces are imparted.

Acts 2:38 (English Standard Version):
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and **be baptized **every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2: 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

In the above passage being buried with Christ in Baptism, and raised with Him through faith are connected with the powerful working of God. Again, Baptism is clearly more than a church ordinance.

SBC beliefs regarding the Eucharist/Communion/ Lord’s Supper are even more problematic. See The Baptist Faith and Message, VII. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, Link: sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i. The SBC describes The Lord’s Supper as a symbolic act of obedience, memorializing the death of the Redeemer and anticipating His second coming. If you look at the SBC Scripture references for this belief, you will find that John Chapter 6 is omitted.

Yet, some critical things are revealed to us in John Chapter 6, including the revelation that the flesh of Christ is true food, and His blood is true drink; those who feed on His flesh and drink His blood, abides in Him, and Christ in them; the necessity to eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, in order to have life in us–in order to have eternal life and be raised on the last day.

**John 6: 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

John 5: 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.**

SBC beliefs, that The Lord’s Supper is merely a symbolic act of obedience; and Baptism is merely a church ordinance, directly contradict Scripture.

The “Real Presence” would probably take a thread of its own.

Anna

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
…]

The SBC beliefs, that The Lord’s Supper is merely a symbolic act of obedience; and Baptism is merely a church ordinance, directly contradict Holy Scripture.

Anna

Thank you for this intersting (name removed by moderator)ut from an ex-Southern Baptist.

Our pastor always said it like this: The Lord’s Supper is a symbolic act in remembrance of what Jesus has done for us on the cross.

And infant-baptism is only a blessing and **credo **(=believing) **baptism **is an official sign that you have enthrusted your life Jesus and are willing to go with Him. This also means i.e. that Baptism is not needed for salvation. The verse he usually quotes is, "12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. " (John 1:12-13) [NASB]

So, I was right among Baptists there are no Sacraments (unlike the Reformed Churches).

But one more question: Aren’t the World Baptist Alliance (“Northern Baptists” - is this term used?) and the Southern Baptists different in many things?
At least I know that they are i.e. not in the World Baptist Alliance (where my Church btw belongs to. - I guess. At least I know that the Baptist Church in Innsbruck belongs to it. But here there are hardly no differences made between the Free Evangelical Churches [which are actually also Baptists], the Baptists and the Pentecostal Churches.)

 

[Anna_Scott]

There have been only two additions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the second of which was published in the year 2000 I think. If you want to read from the Catechism, any online version would be the most recent addition. There really wasn’t anything substantial changed in the secend addition, just a better translation.

SteveVH,
Good to run into you again. I bought the CCC, Second Edition and keep it on my desk.

Peace,
Anna

 

[GaryTaylor]

SteveVH,
Good to run into you again. I bought the CCC, Second Edition and keep it on my desk.

Peace,
Anna

Greetings Anna, my its so true that those who convert seem to make much better Catholics.

I remember my sister in law converted, and use to go to my mothers home daily to quiz her on the Catholic Faith.

But there seems to be so much truth to it.

God Bless, Gary

Anna did you have a chance to read Jesus of Nazareth Part I + II by Benedict XVI? Definately give them a read when you have the time. They are both Best Sellers so are more than likely at the local library. I know they are here anyway, Part II as of last week was #5 on the Best Sellers list.

Just great works, with II really going into depth with the sacrements of confession, communion, through the Last Supper etc. Great reading with a fantastic diverse look. Which Benedict is spectacular for.

Again God Bless.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Our pastor always said it like this: The Lord’s Supper is a symbolic act in remembrance of what Jesus has done for us on the cross.

Christ did say do this “in remembrance,” but that is not all the Bible says about The Lord’s Supper. John Chapter 6 clearly says it is more, much, much more: the flesh of Christ is true food, and His blood is true drink; those who feed on His flesh and drink His blood, abide in Him, and Christ in them; the necessity to eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, in order to have life in us–in order to have eternal life and be raised on the last day. Does that sound like The Lord’s Supper is a purely symbolic act?

How do you consume the Body and Blood of Christ, if you only have bread and wine in a purely symbolic remembrance of Him?

And infant-baptism is only a blessing and **credo **(=believing) **baptism **is an official sign that you have enthrusted your life Jesus and are willing to go with Him.

You are confusing Baptism with the Protestant practice of Infant Dedication. It is only through Baptism that the infant is forgiven of sins and brought into Covenant with God, into the Body of Christ, into the Kingdom of God.

Holy Scripture tells us that Baptism is circumcision made without hands.

Colossians 2:
9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11** In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands**, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Circumcision brought the Jewish people into Covenant with God. Male infants were circumcised. So, if Baptism is the Circumcision made without hands, why would it exclude infants?

Baptism is more inclusive than Circumcision, not less inclusive.

Galatians 3:
27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

**CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, SECOND EDITION
PART TWO, THE CELEBRATION OF THE CHRISTIAN MYSTERY
SECTION TWO, THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH
CHAPTER ONE, THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM **

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

This also means i.e. that Baptism is not needed for salvation. The verse he usually quotes is, "12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. " (John 1:12-13) [NASB]

If Baptism is not necessary, why does Holy Scripture say, "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)???

So, I was right among Baptists there are no Sacraments (unlike the Reformed Churches).

You are correct: Baptists have no Sacraments; but there are Baptists who certainly consider themselves Reformed Churches, claiming a heritage that extends back to the Reformation. See the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches. Link: arbca.com/.

But one more question: Aren’t the World Baptist Alliance (“Northern Baptists” - is this term used?) and the Southern Baptists different in many things?

Yes, they are different. They have very different histories. The Southern Baptists were pro-slavery during the Civil War and split with the Northern Baptists, who were against slavery. See link: google.com/search?q=history+of+Southern+Baptists+and+the+civil+war+slavery&hl=en&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=KyDfTaG1DsPAgQen2cn1Cg&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CGkQ5wIwCg

Southern Baptists also are historically linked to the Ku Klux Klan. Just do a google search with the question: Were Southern Baptists the founder of Ku Klux Klan? or Are Southern Baptists associated with Ku Klux Klan?

Peace,
Anna

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

Sorry about the detour from the original topic of the post. I feel this needs to be addressed. I won’t pursue the discussion beyond this post.

Yes, they are different. They have very different histories. The Southern Baptists were pro-slavery during the Civil War and split with the Northern Baptists, who were against slavery. See link: google.com/search?q=history+of+Southern+Baptists+and+the+civil+war+slavery&hl=en&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=KyDfTaG1DsPAgQen2cn1Cg&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CGkQ5wIwCg

Southern Baptists also are historically linked to the Ku Klux Klan. Just do a google search with the question: Were Southern Baptists the founder of Ku Klux Klan? or Are Southern Baptists associated with Ku Klux Klan?

Peace,
Anna

You’re right, the SBC has a troubled past. It’s a past that we can’t excuse and can’t forget. However, our past does not characterize the present or the future of the SBC just as the stains from past actions of the Catholic Church should not characterize its present or future where it has clearly repented of past mistakes.

Resolution On Racial Reconciliation On The 150th Anniversary Of The Southern Baptist Convention

Resolution On Ku Klux Klan

 

[Anna_Scott]

Greetings Anna, my its so true that those who convert seem to make much better Catholics.

I remember my sister in law converted, and use to go to my mothers home daily to quiz her on the Catholic Faith.

But there seems to be so much truth to it.

God Bless, Gary

Anna did you have a chance to read Jesus of Nazareth Part I + II by Benedict XVI? Definately give them a read when you have the time. They are both Best Sellers so are more than likely at the local library. I know they are here anyway, Part II as of last week was #5 on the Best Sellers list.

Just great works, with II really going into depth with the sacrements of confession, communion, through the Last Supper etc. Great reading with a fantastic diverse look. Which Benedict is spectacular for.

Again God Bless.

Hi, Gary,

I hate to disappoint you, but I’m not in Communion with Rome, at least not at this point. However, I look to the CCC often and have a great respect for Catholics.

I haven’t yet read Jesus of Nazareth Part I + II by Benedict XVI. Keeps coming up, so guess I better get to it.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you for this intersting (name removed by moderator)ut from an ex-Southern Baptist.

Our pastor always said it like this: The Lord’s Supper is a symbolic act in remembrance of what Jesus has done for us on the cross.

And infant-baptism is only a blessing and **credo **(=believing) **baptism **is an official sign that you have enthrusted your life Jesus and are willing to go with Him. This also means i.e. that Baptism is not needed for salvation. The verse he usually quotes is, "12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. " (John 1:12-13) [NASB]

So, I was right among Baptists there are no Sacraments (unlike the Reformed Churches).

But one more question: Aren’t the World Baptist Alliance (“Northern Baptists” - is this term used?) and the Southern Baptists different in many things?
At least I know that they are i.e. not in the World Baptist Alliance (where my Church btw belongs to. - I guess. At least I know that the Baptist Church in Innsbruck belongs to it. But here there are hardly no differences made between the Free Evangelical Churches [which are actually also Baptists], the Baptists and the Pentecostal Churches.)

Sorry about the detour from the original topic of the post. I feel this needs to be addressed. I won’t pursue the discussion beyond this post.

You’re right, the SBC has a troubled past. It’s a past that we can’t excuse and can’t forget. However, our past does not characterize the present or the future of the SBC just as the stains from past actions of the Catholic Church should not characterize its present or future where it has clearly repented of past mistakes.

Resolution On Racial Reconciliation On The 150th Anniversary Of The Southern Baptist Convention

Resolution On Ku Klux Klan

GeorgeTheWild,

My post was in response to a question from the OP, Esdra****, about differences between Northern Baptists and Southern Baptists. You cannot adequately answer that question without acknowledging the fact that the SBC was born out of a pro-slavery agenda.

Indeed, much of Christendom has a troubled past. As an Anglican, I am often reminded of King Henry’s break with Rome over his denied request for an annulment. Catholics are reminded of the Inquisitions. Lutherans are reminded of Martin Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies, and on and on it goes.

I’m glad you posted these links to SBC apologies; but prejudice didn’t instantly vanish with these apologies.

I grew up in the South in the Southern Baptist Church. There are still people in my home town, including a few of my own relatives, who are Southern Baptists and hold racist views to some extent.

I left my hometown for the last time in the early 1980’s. When my son was born, I was determined to bring him up differently. He grew up in Houston with a diversity in his friendships. Thank God.

My son went to his high school prom (here in Houston) with a lovely Asian girl. I sent photos to family members–needless to day, didn’t go over very well with everyone. If you aren’t white, there’s still a problem.

I am 56 years old, so I lived through racial riots, boys and men openly boasting about being a member of the KKK, and hatred of African Americans and the Jewish people—most were devoted members of the Southern Baptist Church. Things are changing over time.

I formally resigned from the Southern Baptist Church in the early part of 2010. The last conversation I had with one of the associate ministers there, left me stunned. I talked to him about my concerns that two African American members of our congregation had been treated badly–one women left the Church altogether, the other left our Sunday School Class. I voiced my concern that there was a cultural misunderstanding behind the way these women were treated, and perhaps an issue of prejudice. The minister told me maybe the issue was not what happened to these women, but it was that “something was following me” (whatever that means.) He ridiculed me, asking why I felt the need to defend these women. I ended up sobbing uncontrollably on the phone–not common behavior for me. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. He refused to consider what had happened to these women, and basically told me I was the one with the problem.

My Sunday School teacher was involved in the incident of one of the African American women. She also made a disparaging remark about the Jews during a lunch with our class members. Also, a shock. This SBC is a Houston mega Church with about 12,000 members.

I know that not all Baptist hold such prejudice. I have some family and friends who are Baptists and are very devoted Christians, who live out the love of Christ.

Esdra, you are the OP. I’m sorry for the diversion from the topic of Baptists and Sacraments. I was just answering your question about differences between Northern Baptists and Southern Baptists. That opened up another issue altogether. I will get back to the topic.

My apologies,
Anna

 

[Jesus_123]

+In all peace and charity Anna. . .

The first Catholic Church with Peter at it’s head as the first Pope . . . was born in an era where slavery was common in society . . . many Catholic Christians had slaves . . .plus the Catholic Church also has an incredibly troubled past . . .

**. . . :coffeeread: . . . **

THE HOLY :bible1: BIBLE​

Revelations 2:11-17 & 2:18-29

The Church of Pergamus . . . [11] He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death. [12] And to the angel of the Church of Pergamus write: These things, saith he, that hath the sharp two edged sword: [13] I ****know where thou dwellest, where the seat of Satan is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith. Even in those days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. [14] But I have against thee a few things: because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat, and to commit fornication: [15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaites.

[16] In like manner do penance: if not, I will come to thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. [17] He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh, **I **will give the hidden manna, and will give him a white counter, and in the counter, a new name written, which no man knoweth, but he that receiveth it.

The Church of Thyatira . . . [18] And to the angel of the Church of Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like to a flame of fire, and his feet like to fine brass. [19] I know thy works, and thy faith, and thy charity, and thy ministry, and thy patience, and thy last works which are more than the former. [20] But I have against thee a few things: because thou sufferest the woman Jezabel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach, and to seduce my servants, to commit fornication, and to eat of things sacrificed to idols.

[21] And I gave her a time that she might do penance, and she will not repent of her fornication. [22] Behold, **I **will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds. [23] And **I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works. But to you I say, [24] And to the rest who are at Thyatira: Whosoever have not this doctrine, and who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will not put upon you any other burden. [25] Yet that, which you have, hold fast till I **come.

[26] And he that shall overcome, and keep my works unto the end,** I** will give him power over the nations. [27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and as the vessel of a potter they shall be broken, [28] As** I **also have received of my Father: and I will give him the morning star. [29] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the **Spirit **saith to the churches.​

Jesus clearly taught the below difficult reality of daily life for God’s children for God’s children . . . which reality is present in both Catholic and non-Catholic Christians . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .

THE HOLY :bible1: BIBLE**
Matthew 25-30**
But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way. 26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. 27 And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle? 28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up? 29 And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. 30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn. - ******​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You our Wonderful Lord and Holy Guide+​

 

[Jesus_123]

+Man’s fallen sinful nature is . . .** far from** . . . being fully perfected and without sin . . . no matter where the Lord has met them and drawn them to **Himself ** as their . . . **Lord and Saviour **. . . God the Son . . . through saving grace . . . whether they are Catholic Christians or non-Catholic Christians . . .

+:bible1: EPHESIANS 6:12
For our wrestling is NOT against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
+

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+​