James does not directly implicate the presbyters present as either actually “hearing” the confessions, or providing any absolution for them.And James 5:15-16. How many ways does he want it?
Mine says what I quoted. Mine, which you didn’t put down in your list, is from the New International version 701st Military Police Battalion.Most of the major translations say “in the PERSON of Christ” or “with the AUTHORITY of Christ.”
New Living Translation (©2007)
When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit,
King James Bible
To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ;
American King James Version
To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
American Standard Version
But to whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also: for what I also have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, for your sakes have I forgiven it in the presence of Christ;
Bible in Basic English
But if you give forgiveness to anyone, I do the same: for if I have given forgiveness for anything, I have done it because of you, in the person of Christ;
Douay-Rheims Bible
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.
Darby Bible Translation
But to whom ye forgive anything, I also; for I also, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, it is for your sakes in the person of Christ;
English Revised Version
But to whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also: for what I also have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, for your sakes have I forgiven it in the person of Christ;
Webster’s Bible Translation
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes I forgave it, in the person of Christ;
Young’s Literal Translation
And to whom ye forgive anything – I also; for I also, if I have forgiven anything, to whom I have forgiven it, because of you – in the person of Christ – I forgive it,
But the anointing forgives sins, and only the elders (priests) can do it.James does not directly implicate the presbyters present as either actually “hearing” the confessions, or providing any absolution for them.
I didn’t misquote you; it was quoted verbatim. (And, as an odd aside, you’re actually the one to misquote yourself, but that’s irrelevant to the issue at hand.) But you were the first one to raise the issue of whether it was the Twelve or a whole herd of disciples. So, I suppose the pertinent question now becomes, why did you raise the issue in the first place?Don’t miss quote me I said, were they the 11 disciples Jesus’ closest ones or the many who were disciples of Jesus. I didn’t necessarily say it wasn’t the Apostles now did I?
The enemies of Christ said this, yes. But the believers rejoiced that this power had been given to men.Maybe I do and maybe I don’t. You really don’t know.
Does not the Bible say that God is the only one who can forgive sin?
Which translation is correct?Mine says what I quoted. Mine, which you didn’t put down in your list, is from the New International version 701st Military Police Battalion.
Who forgave the sin? The men or Jesus?With a tradition of men.
Jesus through the men.Who forgave the sin? The men or Jesus?
Gee let me quess, I’ll bet you would say your’s is correct.Which translation is correct?
So if it was through the men and not through a priest that would mean you don’t need a priest to forgive sin.Jesus through the men.
Priests are men.So if it was through the men and not through a priest that would mean you don’t need a priest to forgive sin.
*Now if you sin against me do I not have the power to forgive you for sinning against me and do I not have the power not to forgive you for sinning against me?The disciples: where they the 11 disciples Jesus’ closest one’s or the many who were disciples of Jesus. It don’t say. What is a disciple? A student. And Jesus had many disciples.other then the 12.
Now if you sin against me do I not have the power to forgive you for sinning against me and do I not have the power not to forgive you for sinning against me?
It sometimes takes the faith of others to bring us to Christ. It wasn’t the men who forgave the sin but Jesus. It was their faith the brought the man to Christ. So I ask you what Jesus asked, "Which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or to say get up and walk? Why did Jesus ask this question?
No I didn’t I went back and checked.I didn’t misquote you; it was quoted verbatim. (And, as an odd aside, you’re actually the one to misquote yourself, but that’s irrelevant to the issue at hand.) But you were the first one to raise the issue of whether it was the Twelve or a whole herd of disciples. So, I suppose the pertinent question now becomes, why did you raise the issue in the first place?
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
I’m a man also. Were the men who brought the paralized man priests?Priests are men.
The Apostles passed on the gifts of the Holy Spirit by laying on hands. In other words, they ordained priests.No I didn’t I went back and checked.
Because the Bible don’t say, it only says disciples, so was it the 11 or as you said, a whole herd of disciples?
No one ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained … by an Apostle has laid hands on you, so no, sorry, you are not a (ministerial) priest.I’m a man also. Were the men who brought the paralized man priests?
There are robbers that confess to police, to a judge. I’m sure you have read about them or seen it in the news.*Now if you sin against me do I not have the power to forgive you for sinning against me and do I not have the power not to forgive you for sinning against me?
*
Question:
So, why does not a robber confesses he stole to a policeman, or a judge…or someone who committed adultery to his/her spouse…or a thief from somebody he stole from…or if one committed an infraction at work to one’s supervisor…or somebody who stole from the congregation to the whole congregation (before being exposed)…
Did Jesus not know and understand our human nature, that is why He instituted an authority here on earth who could act in His name who he charged with forgiving our sins? So that when we sin, and when we confess, we can re-connect to His salvific work?
Oh I see its time to go with the “Your not a minister because…” instead of answering the question.The Apostles passed on the gifts of the Holy Spirit by laying on hands. In other words, they ordained priests.
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 6:6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 13:3[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 4:14[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 1:6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Tit 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]
No one ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained … by an Apostle has laid hands on you, so no, sorry, you are not a (ministerial) priest.
Ok. Just for the sake of discussion, lets say it was “a whole herd of disciples”. Can you explain how it is that the Apostles misunderstood Him, and that He was too weak or disinterested to correct them for 1500 years?No I didn’t I went back and checked.
Because the Bible don’t say, it only says disciples, so was it the 11 or as you said, a whole herd of disciples?
Yes, true they confess…but after they have been caught, or presented with evidence as to their crime or crimes…There are robbers that confess to police, to a judge. I’m sure you have read about them or seen it in the news.
There are those who confess adultery to their spouse.
In every case you have given there are those who have confessed.
There are those who confess before being exposed and there are those who confess after being exposed, but before or after is not the case here. If someone confess a sin against you, before or after being exposed, don’t you have the power to forgive them. Example, your friend comes to you and says, “Man I’m sorry I stoled from you.” You can A.) forgive him or B,) not forgive him. The power is your’s
Now in all the cases you gave there is not a priest among them.
Did that bishop have hands laid on him by a bishop who had valid orders?You’re right I’m not a priest, I left the siminary years ago. But reguardless what you say I am a minister ordianed by a Bishop and had hands laid on me.