Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[david_ruiz]

Perhaps.

But it seems curious that all of these Protestants that have just one thing to “study” cannot even agree on what’s dogma, what’s extra biblical, what’s tradition.

Here’s just a few concepts that have differing–and often contradictory–doctrines, all from reading the same Scriptures (well, give or take 7 books ) This unholy Trinity of me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit has produced chaos and confusion on all of these concepts:
• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism–is it by sprinkling or immersion? Infant or adult? Sacrament or ordinance?
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

Not fair .You are lumping anyone aspiring to Jesus but not Catholic, together.To be fair ,please find contradictions in my church ,lets say, The Assemblies of God, and their teachings,traditions,magisterium, and rules of faith around the world

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7317716:

See, I always saw “God with a big stick” in my churches as a protestant with their “Do this or be damned” attitude. In the Catholic Church it is a “Do this to come to Heaven and when you fall, look I have provided 7 sacraments for you to refresh and renew you in My Spirit!”

I am wondering if the attitude towards sin has less anxiety because the sacraments take care of it ,whereas in protestant churches it is more serious because you have to handle it more personally with the Lord ,one on one,no sacraments (not to say you do not have brotherly help).Things may be more black and white to bible thumpers( do this or be damned -sounds like hellfire preaching)Generally have not experienced this big stick,and there is always a way for grace and repentance .one church using sacraments ,the other not ,but it is the spirit of the whole thing that counts.

Oh, I used to be a “OSAS” branded christian. That was until I found it nowhere in scriptures and nowhere in history before the reformers. If the apostles didnt teach (and preached specifically against it at times) it I can be relatively assured that Christ did not teach it.

I do not necessarily believe osao myself .I mentioned that some protestants do .I think they teach it to guide away from “works” ,and what better way than to assure one of salvation and secureness in Christ’s hand.

Ah, the conditional absolution issue. Confession is conditional on repentance. That is all.

Exactly ,by your church and mine.

I you have true repentance for your sins, they are absolved. If you have partial repentance, something else (I havent looked into this a whole lot so forgive my weak understanding). The difference between the Catholic view and the OSAS view is that if a Catholic goes to confession every day but never has true repentance, true contrition, he KNOWS what he has to do to come back into Gods Grace. If an OSAS Christian says the sinners prayer once and thinks “Hey, Im saved now no matter what I do”, just imagine how sick that path can be. Not all OSAS’ers are like that but I have known more than a few in my time.

As has been pointed out by others ,both churches conditions can be thought to have been met ,leaving the sinner thinking he is ok when he is not.How do you know the Catholic confesses but does not truly repent or want to ,how do you know he knows what to do /How do you know you are truly repentant ,and met the condition ? Both churches have same challenge-this is catholic-universal.We both agree it is wrong for an OSAS christian to then continue sinning (Paul adresses this) -it is the same for a catholic to sin thinking he can just go the confessional and have it wiped away-same challenge -universal

 

[PRmerger]

Not fair .You are lumping anyone aspiring to Jesus but not Catholic, together.

Actually, you did this, david. Right here:

Perhaps ,if protestants have “less” to study,but know it so well, they are hyper-sensitive to dogma that indeed might be extra-biblical or traditional if it does not totally “fit” their biblical understanding…

I am doing nothing more, and nothing less, than using the criterion you did–Protestants who have rejected Sacred Tradition (ostensibly so, although anyone who reads the Bible actually tacitly submits to Tradition) have only the Bible to “study”. And the above (non-exhaustive) list I posted is the fruit of this. There are a myriad of differing interpretations on those concepts.

Now, what we have is chaos and confusion. Just what the Author of Chaos and Confusion ordered, IMHO.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I am wondering if the attitude towards sin has less anxiety because the sacraments take care of it ,whereas in protestant churches it is more serious because you have to handle it more personally with the Lord ,one on one,no sacraments (not to say you do not have brotherly help).

The Protestants generally say faith alone is what forgives sins. Of course by receiving the Sacraments a Catholic is manifesting faith in the One who established them. But you correctly imply that some Protestants use fear as a marketing tool.

 

[PRmerger]

I am wondering if the attitude towards sin has less anxiety because the sacraments take care of it ,whereas in protestant churches it is more serious because you have to handle it more personally with the Lord

This statement is contrary to the human experience, david. For who can doubt that it is exquisitely more difficult to confess one’s sins, out loud, to a person, as opposed to keeping it a secret, just between “me and God alone.”

And who can doubt that one is a channel for humility–what could be more humbling than confessing to another person one’s sins?

Exactly ,by your church and mine. As has been pointed out by others ,both churches conditions can be thought to have been met ,leaving the sinner thinking he is ok when he is not.

This is absolutely NOT CORRECT, david. YOUR paradigm leaves the sinner thinking his sins are forgiven when they are not.

The Catholic who leaves the confessional with his sins absolved does, in truth, have his sins absolved.

How do you know the Catholic confesses but does not truly repent or want to ,how do you know he knows what to do /How do you know you are truly repentant ,and met the condition ?

Huh? If you don’t know that you are truly repentant, then you are not.

it is the same for a catholic to sin thinking he can just go the confessional and have it wiped away-same challenge -universal

Yes, we are agreed on this.

 

[david_ruiz]

Actually, you did this, david. Right here:

 

[PRmerger]

WE could also make a list of dogma,practices protetstants most believe in ,very fundamental but life giving.

Please do this.

I would love to see a list of dogma/practices “most Protestants” believe in.

 

[david_ruiz]

But you correctly imply that some Protestants use fear as a marketing tool]

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed.

It might look like a very basic Catholic catechism, with things like, “God made me” and “God loves me” and “Jesus died for my sins.”

But as for the rest? I doubt there’d be any unity in the truths revealed in Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

Touche.What if i changed “protetstant " to” my church ".Now that list must be eliminated ,.Then it is me looking at everybody else who are claiming some sort of God authority yet coming up with different stuff ( practices,dogma etc). See, I am just like you then.

Perhaps.

Except you admit that your pastor is fallible. That means he’s, by definition, going to be in error in a multitude of his practices and dogmas. So which area/concept in the list I provided is he in error?

 

[JustaServant]

Please do this.

I would love to see a list of dogma/practices “most Protestants” believe in.

Dogma #1. The Catholic Church is wrong.
Dogma #2. Our group is right.

That pretty much sums it up…

Said with tongue firmly in cheek.

 

[david_ruiz]

Indeed.

It might look like a very basic Catholic catechism, with things like, “God made me” and “God loves me” and “Jesus died for my sins.”

But as for the rest? I doubt there’d be any unity in the truths revealed in Scripture.

I think the list is lengthier than you think and again enough for salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

I think the list is lengthier than you think and again enough for salvation.

Please provide the list, as well as what verses tell you what’s “enough for salvation”.

 

[david_ruiz]

This statement is contrary to the human experience, david.

 

[PRmerger]

Who brought up supernatural before ?

What? Why are you bringing the Eucharist into this discussion now?

I am saying that your opinion is contrary to what we experience. You KNOW, by experience, that it’s much easier to keep your sins a secret between you and God, than it is to humbly appear before a man and say OUT LOUD where you’ve failed.

One is a secretive “I’m just fine 'cause God knows my sins” and the other is a humbling, grace-filled source of forgiveness.

And, again, I KNOW I am forgiven, rather than having to guess if I’m forgiven.

Remember, you’re the one who said that in your paradigm it’s possible for a person to think he’s forgiven when he really isn’t. In fact, you responded when asked if it was possible, “ABSOLUTELY.”

In the Catholic sacrament of reconciliation, if I received absolution, then I’m forgiven. If the priest withholds absolution then I’m not forgiven. It would be IMPOSSIBLE for me be in that chilling situation in which I think my sins have been forgiven, when they in fact have not.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes ,but it can be just as secret ,for the confessional is a dark box ,and does he know your voice out of a thousand parisioners ,sometimes.

david, by defintion, when it’s out in the open it’s not a secret anymore.

And who says it is kept secret if only to the Lord ? Can one not testify of how God has forgiven him of such and such a thing ?

Of course one can.

Do you do this monthly? That is, confess your sins, that is, testify out loud , to your congregation?

There are times the Lord says I give you a covering and hide your sins

Where does He say this? Chapter and verse, please!

Humiliation is not the game .

Careful. Humiliation is not the same thing as humility.

You are accusing a very, very sacred thing of being a game of humiliation.

 

[PRmerger]

Again ,only if truly repentant .How does he know ? His own conscience , which you told me can not be trusted ?

Actually, david, YOU are the one who said someone’s conscience can’t be trusted.

Remember?

You said that someone can think he’s forgiven when he’s actually not. The most chilling kind of situation to be in.

Are you truly repentant if you continue , or say the same sins over and over again every week or month or year ?

This situation is the same for both Protestants and Catholics.

What is the scenario for those religious people who think they are O.K. but the Lord rejects them .You have none of those in your church ? If you do ,they must confess from time to time , so how could they think they are O.K. otherwise ?

The Lord rejects NO ONE, david. He wishes the salvation OF ALL.

If there are religious people in my church who end up in hell, it is because they chose it for themselves. The Lord did not reject them. As if.

 

[david_ruiz]

Please ,it is up to 50,000-such a paper tiger of an excuse not to see any ,any value to the reformers .It must exist else some would get saved. Reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode where a space ship lands at night .In the morning the rural farmhouse family discover huge spaceboot footprints outside,their truck crushed. When they look up , there is a 300 ft space traveler in his space suit towering above the family below .They run in the house petrified .After much time and fearful debate on what to do ,one loses patience and in exasperation grabs a rifle and goes out to shoot the giant in futility .He empties his ammo ,and just falls to his knees expecting to be crushed .Well, after some time the giant starts shrinking ,down to nothing .It was a fake balloon of a spaceman !They then discover a tiny little spaceship with tiny aliens ,and all of a sudden the farmers are the giants . This to say on that Great Day of Judgement , the real “problem” with this disunity will be shown for what it is .The negative aspect of that will pale in comparison to the overall message , of reform ,an ultimate move of God, to be true to His church. I know you disagree with this. I will agree with you that it is a very, very real objection on your part ,very real . BUT,BUT,with God all things are possible in overcoming this objection( something greater than the objection must be drawing us).

 

[david_ruiz]

Perhaps.

Except you admit that your pastor is fallible. That means he’s, by definition, going to be in error in a multitude of his practices and dogmas. So which area/concept in the list I provided is he in error?

Thank-you for the perhaps. I believe the context was unity .My church would then be in unity, with "ourselves ,as your church is with itself and Jehovah’s with themselves etc… Now infallibility is another topic .I am not saying we would be perfect , as we would both agree Jehovah’s are not and I would say you are not also .Having said that, from your list of 27 , I only see one that is somewhat important where I differ ,but not for salvation or even sanctification .It is the rapture .But I feel this is something the Holy Spirit will reveal more as time gets closer .You can say you have been the same on that dogma for a millenium(or more-not sure), but if you want grace on illumination ,remember you ask for it on the Immaculateness and Assumption which took 2000 years to fully illuminate and dogmatize.

 

[david_ruiz]

Dogma #1. The Catholic Church is wrong.
Dogma #2. Our group is right.

That pretty much sums it up…

Said with tongue firmly in cheek.

Sounds like you entertain a persecution complex .You are the big kid on the block ,in size and age and maturity.Some groups do have your dogma #1,#2 scenario ( Jehovah’s). I think you do also somewhat (in reverse) ,more than we. It is true protestants will say #1 often, but not necessarily # 2. You see they left behind the idea of infallibility and have a different understanding of what Church is ,of what the Body of Christ is .It is imperfect ,till we be fully revealed in That Great Day(we are hid -Col3:3,4). Hence not a theological need for #2. Yet we strive for perfection in Christ in all things , but are subject to vain , carnal pride also.