Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[david_ruiz]

Please provide the list, as well as what verses tell you what’s “enough for salvation”.

Just one- make sure you have cried out to the Lord anytime before your last breath.

 

[david_ruiz]

And, again, I KNOW I am forgiven, rather than having to guess

 

[david_ruiz]

]What? Why are you bringing the Eucharist into this discussion now?

brought up only "supernatural and explained in context of divine to forgive -by the Spirit-obvious.

I am saying that your opinion is contrary to what we experience. You KNOW, by experience, that it’s much easier to keep your sins a secret between you and God, than it is to humbly appear before a man and say OUT LOUD where you’ve failed.

I WAS humbly speaking from experience.

One is a secretive “I’m just fine 'cause God knows my sins”

That is not what secretive is anymore than you saying before confessing ," I am just fine cause I am going to confess anyways". Your negative depiction is one of self -conversation. We are to have a relationship with Christ and we talk to Him ,and can confess to Him. This is what I was taught to do as a Catholic ,while on my knees meditating, in preparation , BEFORE going into the priest .

 

[Cat_Herder]

Just one- make sure you have cried out to the Lord anytime before your last breath.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

Just one- make sure you have cried out to the Lord anytime before your last breath.

Wow. So the entire 50,000 verses of Scripture are unnecessary. There’s just one thing that all Christians need to do to be saved.

Not to mention that one of those other 50,000 verses makes the opposite claim, as shown by Cat.

 

[PRmerger]

Having said that, from your list of 27 , I only see one that is somewhat important where I differ ,but not for salvation or even sanctification

Firstly, there are no bible verses which tell you which of those 27 items is “somewhat important” and which are not.

Secondly, your church won’t marry someone who’s been divorced and wishes to marry someone else?

Really?

 

[PRmerger]

Do not lapse into weak argument by focusing on one and forgetting the other of full assurance of forgiveness we CAN have.

What assurance of forgiveness do you have?

And please give an example of how someone can think his sins are forgiven when they actually are not, so I know we’re on the same page with this.

Catholics have stated your forgiveness is partly conditional also ,that one must be truly repentant

Yes.

And I can’t think of a single example of a Catholic who is not truly repentant who goes to confession and then thinks his sins are forgiven when they are not.

I think we have a universal connection to the possibility of the condition NOT being met by an unrepentant heart going thru the motions, being deceived in himself ,as Christ points out can happen

Absolutely NOT, david. In your paradigm, yes. In the Catholic Church, NO! If he goes to confession and is not truly repentant, then he knows his sins are not forgiven. If he goes to confession and is truly repentant, then he knows his sins are forgiven.

 

[PRmerger]

brought up only "supernatural and explained in context of divine to forgive -by the Spirit-obvious.

Well, david, that is a nonsequitor.

You stated that it seemed to you that going to confession to a priest would produce less anxiety, while your way of keeping it a secret between you and God “one on one” is more serious. I stated that this is contrary to our human experience. You KNOW that it’s much harder to speak to another person, out loud, your sins. Rather than just keeping it a secret between you and God.

The supernatural has nothing to do with your point.

 

[bjryman]

You’re right, the text itself doesn’t necessarily say one way or the other. So, on what basis can you say that it necessarily wasn’t just the Apostles? Not that this is dispositive of whether priests can forgive sins in God’s name.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

Here we go again…it is CHURCH TRADITION, passed on down by our church founding fathers that solidified the real world application of the scriptural passages.

That tradition, going way back to the Bishops early days, supported the descendants of the apostles (those assigned by them to carry on their actions…and on whom they laid their hands). The actual nomenclature of the “person in Christ” evolved over time, with the modern term “priest” coming after Bishop and preceptor. The key to all this is the chain of command, unbroken over the decades following the Apostles, until the Reformation.

 

[david_ruiz]

Wow. So the entire 50,000 verses of Scripture are unnecessary. There’s just one thing that all Christians need to do to be saved.

The Cat verse of" Lord Lord"-when are these people saying that or crying that out ? when ?
One verse ,yeah and you think all men would do it ,but they don’t why ? Why don’t all catholics do the Novena -? I was told (and tried and failed )that if you went to mass and communion the first friday of the month for 9 months Mary promised (almost guaranteed) to bring you into heaven ,a special grace (as long as you remained catholic)., Somehow she would guide you and help you do all the necessary things for salvation ,to the end. Why don’t more people do it ? Don’t they want to go to heaven for sure ? So with one verse or 50,000 verses ,most people will avail of none of them either.

 

[david_ruiz]

Well, david, that is a nonsequitor.

Let’s see. we are talking about forgiveness of sins and of course confessing them to that end .You brought up what is natural I think. Could i not say that doesn’t fit ?What is natural about forgiveness or confessing ? Is it natural to the carnal mind ? When you say natural ,are you speaking of the old man or the new man in Christ ? I understand supernatural ,as in above nature(fallen) , to require the aid of the Lord ,as in forgiveness.Certainly you have heard that to forgive is divine? I am just saying so it goes with confessing .It is not natural to confess sins to anyone , including to God. If by divine grace you confess to God (this is NOT secret), you can certainly by divine grace confess to man ,as God directs .Again ,I was taught to confess to Jesus first (is not He as real as any confessor ?), BEFORE going into the confessional. Is not this acting out my faith of what happened “secretly”(your unfortunate word),with my Lord , as a Catholic? If it is harder to confess to a man, it is because of pride , and the carnal man .But it is the spiritual man already that would go to Jesus and the confessional . Again ,form my recollection as a devout catholic Both were done .I could not be truly repentant unless I spent time with the Lord FIRST .As far as secretive -all of it was. My preparatory time with Jesus was with Him alone and my time with the confessor was with him alone.I normally did not tell my sins to anyone else (sometimes to a friend ,but not for forgiveness,perhaps for support, which in the end may have been as scriptural or more than the confessional -looking back)

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I apologize for the delay in my reply. but here it is anyway

I am wondering if the attitude towards sin has less anxiety because the sacraments take care of it ,whereas in protestant churches it is more serious because you have to handle it more personally with the Lord ,one on one,no sacraments (not to say you do not have brotherly help).Things may be more black and white to bible thumpers( do this or be damned -sounds like hellfire preaching)Generally have not experienced this big stick,and there is always a way for grace and repentance .one church using sacraments ,the other not ,but it is the spirit of the whole thing that counts.

I actually have more of a personal relationship with Christ inside His Catholic Church than I ever did as a protestant (baptist, evangelical, momentary unitarian, pentecostal, “I dont need church”, etc.). Part of that is the fact that Catholic theology was the only theology I had ever seen that could actually make it really and truly a personal relationship with Christ.

Then there is the fact that “The Catholic Church is not a museum for saints but a hospital for sinners”. I have never been looked down upon for my failures to live a good Christian life in the Catholic Church (personal experience only, other opinions will vary) while any and all transgressions as a pentecostal brought rebuke from the congregation, as a baptist it brought dirty looks and whispers, as a unitarian NOONE was rebuked for anything, etc. The Catholic Church has the most loving and Christ-like doctrine of salvation I can imagine. Essentially it breaks down to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. And when you fail, Christ has set up the Church to help guide you back into His ways that you might love and serve Him in this life and be happy with him forever in the next.”

I have heard too many people (Catholic and otherwise) tell me that such and such a person is going to hell. If so and so doesnt do what I say is right, he/she is going to hell. That is incorrect wherever it occurs, but in the Church we have the fullness of revealed truth to be our lamp on the narrow way and to bring us succor in our tribulations.

No matter where you are David remember what St. Catherine of Sienna (I think it was her) said “All the way to heaven is heaven” since Christ told us that he is the way.

I do not necessarily believe osao myself .I mentioned that some protestants do .I think they teach it to guide away from “works” ,and what better way than to assure one of salvation and secureness in Christ’s hand.

I Think that C.S. Lewis’ scissor analogy is the best I have heard yet. Faith and works are like the two blades of a pair of scissors: the one is useless without the other. Faith without works is dead, works without faith are useless unless done out of obedience to Christ since He told us “If you love me, obey me”. Obedience can lead to faith, but a faith that never leads to works is false.

Exactly ,by your church and mine. As has been pointed out by others ,both churches conditions can be thought to have been met ,leaving the sinner thinking he is ok when he is not.How do you know the Catholic confesses but does not truly repent or want to ,how do you know he knows what to do /How do you know you are truly repentant ,and met the condition ? Both churches have same challenge-this is catholic-universal.We both agree it is wrong for an OSAS christian to then continue sinning (Paul adresses this) -it is the same for a catholic to sin thinking he can just go the confessional and have it wiped away-same challenge -universal

You have a point. It is possible to believe you are saved yet be incorrect. The difference is in the paradigm of protestantism, if you have a false assurance of salvation you are damned, or if your faith is wrong (not in line with what your church teaches) you are damned. The Catholic faith teaches that one should never despair of the salvation of ANY soul, because by God’s grace any may be saved. It would not be the ordinary way, but there is always the possibility of invincible ignorance.

The Protestants generally say faith alone is what forgives sins. Of course by receiving the Sacraments a Catholic is manifesting faith in the One who established them. But you correctly imply that some Protestants use fear as a marketing tool.

I think that the nail in the coffin of “Faith alone” is the fact that it occurs in only one verse in the bible, to say that salvation is NOT by faith alone. It astounds me that people dont realize this until I remember how many times I read that verse without understanding its implications.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

And I can’t think of a single example of a Catholic who is not truly repentant who goes to confession and then thinks his sins are forgiven when they are not.

Well, there is the problem of imperfect contrition and if you listen to, say, father Larry Richards, he talks relatively frequently about the people who go to confession while knowing that they are not truly repentant. My priest gave a good homily about those kinds of “comfort sins” that we are not ready to give up (for me it seems to be bad language). He told us to bring them to confession and allow God to begin to work on them.

Absolutely NOT, david. In your paradigm, yes. In the Catholic Church, NO! If he goes to confession and is not truly repentant, then he knows his sins are not forgiven. If he goes to confession and is truly repentant, then he knows his sins are forgiven.

I wanted to make sure that this was separated out since it is a wonderful reply to the issue David brought up.

The Cat verse of" Lord Lord"-when are these people saying that or crying that out ? when ?

They said that during life and Christ told them he did not know them at their particular judgment after death.

One verse ,yeah and you think all men would do it ,but they don’t why ? Why don’t all catholics do the Novena -? I was told (and tried and failed )that if you went to mass and communion the first friday of the month for 9 months Mary promised (almost guaranteed) to bring you into heaven ,a special grace (as long as you remained catholic)., Somehow she would guide you and help you do all the necessary things for salvation ,to the end. Why don’t more people do it ? Don’t they want to go to heaven for sure ? So with one verse or 50,000 verses ,most people will avail of none of them either.

Well that would be under the umbrella of private revelation and thus not binding to the individual Catholic. People are free to believe that or not believe that. I tend to avoid such devotions because I feel that, for me, they would lead me towards an almost “superstitious” faith where I was forcing God into my box of salvation. That does not mean that I disagree with those devotions or that one in particular. I think that for many people they are an excellent path to holiness, but for me they would be inappropriate.

Let’s see. we are talking about forgiveness of sins and of course confessing them to that end .You brought up what is natural I think. Could i not say that doesn’t fit ?What is natural about forgiveness or confessing? Is it natural to the carnal mind? When you say natural ,are you speaking of the old man or the new man in Christ?

What is natural to a Human is not to sin (Adam and eve were not created with concupiscence) but due to our fallen nature we have a tendency towards sin and the towards hiding it. Look at a child who does something he shouldnt, the first thing they do is try to hide it. What IS natural is to try to fix what we did wrong. To attempt to put it back as it was without flaw. Now, God has given us a way to do that through confession. It is through confession that we heal the bond with God which we have harmed through sin and disobedience.

I understand supernatural ,as in above nature(fallen) , to require the aid of the Lord ,as in forgiveness.Certainly you have heard that to forgive is divine? I am just saying so it goes with confessing .It is not natural to confess sins to anyone, including to God.

It is not natural to confess, but repentance and the desire to do penance is natural. Thanks be to God that he has given us the means to do both through His sacrament.

If by divine grace you confess to God (this is NOT secret), you can certainly by divine grace confess to man ,as God directs .Again ,I was taught to confess to Jesus first (is not He as real as any confessor?), BEFORE going into the confessional. Is not this acting out my faith of what happened “secretly”(your unfortunate word),with my Lord , as a Catholic?

Hmmm, that is not how I was taught to confess. But it makes sense if you dont believe that the priest has the authority to act In Persona Christi.

If it is harder to confess to a man, it is because of pride , and the carnal man .But it is the spiritual man already that would go to Jesus and the confessional . Again ,form my recollection as a devout catholic Both were done .I could not be truly repentant unless I spent time with the Lord FIRST .As far as secretive -all of it was. My preparatory time with Jesus was with Him alone and my time with the confessor was with him alone.I normally did not tell my sins to anyone else (sometimes to a friend ,but not for forgiveness,perhaps for support, which in the end may have been as scriptural or more than the confessional -looking back)

The whole act of confession is difficult due to pride, correct, but from experience it is much harder to hide sins when you have to confess out loud to a priest who has the authority to absolve you of your sins. It does not allow that comfort with your sins, that “Oh well, God knows I do this and he knows I am going to do it again, so I will just bang this out and go back to what I was doing”.

About the secretive thing, yes it is sort of secretive. I would assume that you wouldnt want to stand up in front of the congregation and make a public confession as used to be done. The point of the sacrament is to grant you absolution and grace to avoid future sins “I firmly resolve, with the help of Your grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to avoid that which leads me to sin”.

Perhaps you can show us where it is permissible, biblically, to confess your sins to God and have them be forgiven immediately?

 

[PRmerger]

Well, there is the problem of imperfect contrition and if you listen to, say, father Larry Richards, he talks relatively frequently about the people who go to confession while knowing that they are not truly repentant.

If they know they are not truly repentant, then they know that they are not truly forgiven.

This is quite different than the chilling version offered by david: one thinks he’s forgiven when he’s not.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

If they know they are not truly repentant, then they know that they are not truly forgiven.

This is quite different than the chilling version offered by david: one thinks he’s forgiven when he’s not.

Good point. There really is no ambiguity in the system Christ established.

 

[david_ruiz]

Do you do this monthly? That is, confess your sins, that is, testify out loud , to your congregation?

Not sure what you mean for I spoke of God lovingly taking our sin -not humiliating us with them

You are accusing a very, very sacred thing of being a game of humiliation.

Sorry you misunderstood (do not know how to do parargraphs).What i did touch upon is the abuse of the confessional with young adolescents and probing questions by the confessor .I never experienced this ,and perhaps it is no more, but was a thing in the past. All churches/pastors/confessors must be careful in handling intimate conversation of faults of the heart and flesh.

 

[david_ruiz]

Actually, david, YOU are the one who said someone’s conscience can’t be trusted.

 

[KathleenGee]

David,

Then you are rejecting Jesus at the evening of the Resurrection Who gave His apostles the authority to forgive sin…

Sin is the offense against God. Only God can forgive sin. We can cooperate with the grace from God to forgive others. But it is the spirit of God working within us to forgive others.

If all we had to do was forgive others, as Christ told Peter earlier, then He would not have authorized the Apostles to do forgive…His Ministers here on earth.

If we do not have central authority, then we have fracture and disintegration. And that is precisely what happened to Christianity in North America. We are no block against the evils of our time because the authority of Christ, given to His Church, is not recognized in Christianity in America, and the Sacred Word of God is used instead to further divide and invalidate.

The Word of God is to guide us, spiritualize us, and help us to draw closer to the Will of God. But the Church is the final response of God in His Word…it is now the Word Made Flesh…the sacraments provided us by His chosen Ministers.

We must always ask the Lord to give us more faith…and reason. We are to pray for those in authority, be it ecclesial or civil.

 

[david_ruiz]

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]

That is a good scripture ,makes we want to cry out for Him even more.

 

[david_ruiz]

Firstly, there are no bible verses which tell you which of those 27 items is “somewhat important” and which are not.

Secondly, your church won’t marry someone who’s been divorced and wishes to marry someone else?

Really?

It is not between “somewhat” and “not” important. I would say some are more important than others as probably most people would.I understand every last word ,jot and tittle are important .However, if you feel "head coverings ’ is as important as killing unborn babies please feel free to explain.My point still stands we do not have disunity in our church on your 27. We do differ with Catholics on some of your 27. We do agree on most (17,18 )issues.