Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[david_ruiz]

Oh, absolutely. :sad_yes:

Sadly, you know more about Catholicism, after being here on the CAFs, than most average Joe “Big-Lump-in-the Pews” Catholic.

Well ,perhaps we should be more charitable .Maybe I should agree with you and say we knew little ,especially relative to what we have come to know .I still think what is more important than denomination or church and knowledge thereof , is if one’s religion is their life or just part of their life . Also whether one is superficially a Christian, or whether one is in truth and spirit AND in experience - with, and in, and of Jesus. I believe scriptures deal with such a thing. Really it boils down to whether one is regenerated , born again , or not. Just because one changes churches does NOT mean it is because of rebirth . However , for many it is . Many would say they knew little of Christianity period (not just Catholicism), BEFORE this new birth.(again especially relative to what they know and understand AFTER rebirth). So perhaps you can be at peace .I left the Catholic church in darkness, NOT knowing and conceding to the fullness of Christ’s goodness toward my soul. Another words , I was not a good Catholic when I left. I would also say I was not Christian either.I was not born again (which has nothing to do with knowledge ,catechism, goodness, zeal, devotion ). Alas, the universal problem , that just because one occupies a pew , it does not make him a Christian- Catholic ,Protestant or Orthodox.

 

[david_ruiz]

So David,

My question to you is, if I can word it, is it hard for you to accept the authority of Christ working through another person?

In my flesh yes. In my new man ,no. Words from the mouth of babes (my own children and grandchildren) have often carried great truth and authority.The truth revealed in nature has often carried great authority also .

 

[PRmerger]

Well ,perhaps we should be more charitable .

Perhaps you should. I dunno.

But don’t mix me in with you, as a we, 'kay?

Maybe I should agree with you and say we knew little ,especially relative to what we have come to know .I still think what is more important than denomination or church and knowledge thereof , is if one’s religion is their life or just part of their life .

Ok.

Another words , I was not a good Catholic when I left.

Yes, of that I am quite certain. You did not know the faith in which you left. Otherwise, you would be able to profess where in the Mass is Scripture (hint: it’s not just when we hear the 3 readings, 1 psalm and proclaim the Our Father.)

Do you know the answer to this david?

 

[Ryan_Miller]

Jesus breathed on his Apostles and said, “Receive the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them and whose sins you shall retain they are retained.” (John: 21, 22-23) Douay Rheims Version

When Christ said this, He gave the apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins through Jesus Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

It is the Holy Spirit working through the Church…yes, Ryan…and we have faith in the Spirit of God working in our clergy.

But to look beyond our faith in God…one can look too much at a priest and his humanity.

It is a balance of having the appropriate perspective of both – the Spirit of God working in the clergy…and then the humanity of the priests that we must all pray for…they are sinner like us.

The focus is more on Christ in His sacraments.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7381205:

No. No no no, David. You seem to be completely misunderstanding me (or you’re actively dodging the question, but I hope not). I don’t care about how Catholics know true from false interpretations. I’m not asking what you think about what Catholics think about revelation.

I want to know: How do you, personally, David Ruiz, know which interpretation of Scripture is correct? What makes your personal opinions

right?

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

O.K. but first understand my answer .The answer, the "key " being divine revelation is not just a Catholic answer , but is universal, for all Christians, hence is “my” answer also. My personal opinions are only right when they align with God’s personal opinion. Some of my personal opinions are quite wrong ,as were Peter’s. In the end , if I utter any truth , it is by His grace , and if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt any truth, it is by His grace. .If I know and believe only slightly it is by His grace. If I am totally wrong, even faithless on something , it is only by His grace that He still holds me. In the end ,why have a relationship with the Almighty if I can not converse with Him on ANY topic , ANY scripture, and more importantly He with me ? So it should also be with our relationships with each other ,and our pastors ,and the Body (the Church) . We all submit to one another ,because we are all submitted to Him.

 

[david_ruiz]

Yes, of that I am quite certain. You did not know the faith in which you left. Otherwise, you would be able to profess where in the Mass is Scripture (hint: it’s not just when we hear the 3 readings, 1 psalm and proclaim the Our Father.)

Do you know the answer to this david?

Yes. But our answers are slightly different ,for I do not view the Eucharistic thrust ,of us offering something up to God, as scriptural.The Eucharist is THANKSGIVING-to give thanks and commemorate His sacrifice for us -He gave to us ,we do not give to Him except thanks-the early church even made it a love feast . Other than that ,it is mostly scripture-the whole mass.Having said that ,I do not know how i would have answered that as a 10 or 15 year old Catholic. The litmus question I like is, if you were to die tonight ,where would you spend eternity ? I am not asking you that , just stating that is what I ask people sometimes to really get to the nitty gritty . Your question is a good one ,at least to determine knowledge of ones own faith .Do you ask that question of practicing Catholics,or only of those who left, especially when they may say there new church is more “scriptural” ?

 

[david_ruiz]

What? You believe there are indeed some “apostolic traditions”? Can you name them?

I believe i mentioned a few of them in #478

 

[david_ruiz]

If they are baptized, then yes, they are “born again.”
Because the sacraments are not “magic” and can not force someone into intimate union with Christ unless the Catholic so desires it.
:

Magic is a good lay term .More precisely is the term “effectual”. This is where lies the great debate : Is there a work that I must do to be saved , to be born again ? You say yes, as an infant even , you are "magically " (for lay people) born again ( or effectually (for theologians) . Which is it , your first statement , baptism does it or your second , baptism does not , necessarily ? Is this something new , where you are half born again, half regenerated ? This is not Jewish , Old Testament .You either are or are not .There are different levels of faith and giftings and depth of relationship , but you either are in Him or you are not. Infant baptism makes you born again or it does not. Are you saying Nicodemus was born again (because of circumcision and barhmitzvahed=baptized /confirmed) but was blind as a bat spiritually speaking anyways ? Jesus made it quite clear he was not regenerated , not born of the Spirit, even though he was very religious ,and would pass every litmus question you could throw at him… To me , this is the crux of the matter . Many of those average Joe’s you spoke of in your pews are not born again , hence they do not see nor understand , nor have that fire in their belly.Yet they are told they are born again, and perhaps need some spiritual effort, as St. Paul calls it “will worship” Col 2:23…This is my humble but emphatic opinion , as I am sure many others who have crossed over will testify. That is our central theme -we were not born again, from pew warming Joe, to the nun ,to the priest, who have crossed over. I am not saying some Catholics are not born again . I am saying I was not and many others also , who crossed over, also were not . It is only my conclusion that I left behind souls in similar condition. So you don’t feel I am picking on your church , Joe’s problem is universal in all churches. It is just that you teach Him he IS born again, and we teach him or warn him he may not be , and indeed, you need not a physician if you are not sick.There-in lies the hope, the good news.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

Ne_OrangeKnight;7386654:

O.K. but first understand my answer .

I understand your answer. The problem is, it doesn’t actually answer my question. You are talking in conditionals: ‘if I am right, then it’s God’s doing.’ Yes, and that is true for everyone ever throughout time and space.

My question was factual and specific: Who is right? How can we know? The only possible answer that I can glean from your response is, “I don’t know.” If that is not what you meant to say, please correct me, because I don’t want to misunderstand your point of view.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7388431:

I understand your answer. The problem is, it doesn’t actually answer my question. You are talking in conditionals: 'if

I am right, then it’s God’s doing.’ Yes, and that is true for everyone ever throughout time and space.

My question was factual and specific: Who is right? How can we know? The only possible answer that I can glean from your response is, “I don’t know.” If that is not what you meant to say, please correct me, because I don’t want to misunderstand your point of view.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

How do you glean that I do not know ? Peter knew beyond doubt Christ was the Messiah yet seconds later refused that the cross was for Jesus.I know some things beyond a shadow of a doubt ,some things less strongly ,and some things He has kept me in the dark .This is as factual, personal,specific as i can get,and the reasonings have already been given.Illumination is what brings me into the church.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

Ne_OrangeKnight;7388547:

How do you glean that I do not know ?

“Some of my personal opinions are quite wrong”
“If I am totally wrong”

Peter knew beyond doubt Christ was the Messiah yet seconds later refused that the cross was for Jesus.

Again, this isn’t about Peter, or anyone else. This is about you. Also, that has nothing to do with interpreting Scripture. Did Jesus tell you that you had the proper interpretation of John 20:23?

I know some things beyond a shadow of a doubt ,some things less strongly ,and some things He has kept me in the dark .This is as factual, personal,specific as i can get,

This, to me, seems to be saying, “I just know.”

and the reasonings have already been given.Illumination is what brings me into the church.

This, again, seems to be saying, “God told me.” Is that right? Again, I don’t want to misrepresent what you’re saying, but you still haven’t actually told me how you know.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[PRmerger]

I believe i mentioned a few of them in #478

This is your post #478. Where are the tradtitions that are “apostolic” that you mentioned?

Specifically, these ought to be traditions that you follow that you claim to be “apostolic.”

Not so .Some are apostolic ,some are not

I understand ,just disagree.It is a huge assumption that they taught doctrine or tradition and did not put it in Writing. Especially so many of your doctrines .Some have said up to half your doctrines are established by “Tradition” .

Yes, this is very powerful argument ,very powerful ,but still disagree. I view it as the two scriptures pretty much saying the same thing .I understand not everything they said was written down ,but you got to far the other way .What tradition was he talking of ? Things that are in scripture elsewhere ? Like meeting on sunday ,for praise and worship and the eucharist and for reading of scripture or “letters” and baptizing ,and speaking in tongues and interpreting ? Where do you see infant baptism specifically mentioned as being regenerating , or confessing to apostles or deputies of them , or lighting candles , praying for dead, of kissing Peter’s ring, or that Mary assumed or was without sin ? Why did it take a generation to to centuries to “develop” such doctrine .That Jesus was Messiah , that we are sinners, in need of salvation, to be born again, and He is coming again, and we are going to be judged etc -these are from the beginning.

 

[Bill_Pick]

This is your post #478. Where are the tradtitions that are “apostolic” that you mentioned?

Specifically, these ought to be traditions that you follow that you claim to be “apostolic.”

The Bible is not that big to put all Jesus side or did

 

[KathleenGee]

Bill,

The apostles said there would never be enough books written about Him.

My perception here is that there are good people who are very religious but cannot trust God working through those consecrated in truth and spirit.

 

[PRmerger]

Magic is a good lay term .More precisely is the term “effectual”. This is where lies the great debate : Is there a work that I must do to be saved , to be born again ?

Yes, indeed you must do something.

In other words, what’s the difference between david ruiz unsaved and david ruiz saved–is it something that Jesus did or something that you did? (Remember, Jesus’ work was finished 2000 years ago on the Cross!)

The answer, of course, is that the difference between david saved and david unsaved is that YOU did something. Jesus’ work was completed 2000 years ago, right? Or are you saying that Jesus is still bleeding on that cross in order to save you?

You say yes, as an infant even , you are "magically " (for lay people) born again ( or effectually (for theologians).

David, I suggest you stop using the word “magic” with regard to the sacraments. It is NOT a correct term–whether lay or otherwise. And to do so is to tread on waters that are reportable. As I said, the sacraments are NOT magic, and if you say “effectual” and “magic” are interchangeable, you are showing great contempt for Catholicism.

But, regarding infant baptism, this is a wonderful example that Catholics profess that we believe God’s salvation is totally and completely a gift--for what work could this cute little babe do to “earn” his salvation? It is offered even to infants who can do no work to “earn” his salvation

 

[Cat_Herder]

The litmus question I like is, if you were to die tonight ,where would you spend eternity ? I am not asking you that , just stating that is what I ask people sometimes to really get to the nitty gritty . Your question is a good one ,at least to determine knowledge of ones own faith .Do you ask that question of practicing Catholics,or only of those who left, especially when they may say there new church is more “scriptural” ?

The only correct answer to the “litmus question” is:

I submit to the mercy of my Lord Jesus Christ Who is alone the Just Judge. Through His grace I have been saved, am being saved, and will be saved.

If the answer is instead that you know with certainty you will go to heaven then you are impinging on Christ’s role as Judge. It is one thing to trust in His mercy, another to sit in His throne.

 

[KathleenGee]

CatHerder…tend to think the same with your response…we never can reach perfection in this life…all we can hope for is the Lord and call upon His mercy…which is far greater than all the sins in the world…

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7388569:

"

Some of my personal opinions are quite wrong"
“If I am totally wrong”

I state three facts and you focused on one and conclude it to cover my three points .I never said "I am totally wrong’’,yet you quoted it that way .I said “if i am totally wrong on SOMETHING,”,

Again, this isn’t about Peter, or anyone else. This is about you. Also, that has nothing to do with interpreting Scripture.

Yes it does ,for you must explain how Peter interpreted not only scripture , but tradition, rabbis, (Jewish church teaching ), even actions and words and the very person of Jesus himself .All these things Peter had to “interpret”. It has everything to do with what we are talking about.

Did Jesus tell you that you had the proper interpretation of John 20:23?

Yes

This, to me, seems to be saying, “I just know.”

Absolutely ,if taken by itself ,and out of context of the last several threads.It is just not that i know ,but how I know ,that being your very question.

This, again, seems to be saying, “God told me.” Is that right? Again, I don’t want to misrepresent what you’re saying, but you still haven’t actually told me how you know.

Strange .I tell you how I know ,you acknowledge it ( by God’s grace)).Then you ask again how I know. Don’t you believe in God, that He is alive, that He is Spirit and we are made in His image being given a spirit ,once dead but quickened in His new birth ,so that we may sup with Him ,giving us an Unction ,that we may know all things ? ? ?
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[david_ruiz]

This is your post #478. Where are the tradtitions that are “apostolic” that you mentioned?

Specifically, these ought to be traditions that you follow that you claim to be “apostolic.”

“What tradition was he talking of ? Things that are in scripture… Like meeting on sunday ,for praise and worship and the eucharist and for reading of scripture or “letters” and baptizing ,and speaking in tongues and interpreting” from #478