Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[PRmerger]

We know she was a virgin when she had Jesus, but afterwards? Why does it matter?

It matters because, as with all Marian doctrines/dogmas, its significance has to do with our understanding of Christ. Every Marian doctrine/dogma re-affirms and enhances our understanding of Jesus. It’s always all about Him!

Mary’s Perpetual Virginity emphasizes the divinity of Jesus by telling us how fitting it was that** the womb that housed God Incarnate was set apart just for that purpose**! Imagine the Ark of the Covenant in the OT, which housed the sacred Word of God, later being a container for some pretty pebbles. It would diminish the sacredness of the stone tablets. Imagine your pastor placing a pretty decoration inside the Tabernacle at your church, in which now rests the Divine Presence.
[SIGN1]
Can you imagine the womb which held God Incarnate later carrying anything else? [/SIGN1]

Thus, every single Marian doctrine and dogma reinforces and highlights the divinity of Christ.

And, our passion in this regard is not necessarily focused on Mary’s virginity, but on the Truth, which must be protected and defended.

 

[BlueShadow123]

It matters because, as with all Marian doctrines/dogmas, its significance has to do with our understanding of Christ. Every Marian doctrine/dogma re-affirms and enhances our understanding of Jesus. It’s always all about Him!

Mary’s Perpetual Virginity emphasizes the divinity of Jesus by telling us how fitting it was that** the womb that housed God Incarnate was set apart just for that purpose**! Imagine the Ark of the Covenant in the OT, which housed the sacred Word of God, later being a container for some pretty pebbles. It would diminish the sacredness of the stone tablets. Imagine your pastor placing a pretty decoration inside the Tabernacle at your church, in which now rests the Divine Presence.
[SIGN1]
Can you imagine the womb which held God Incarnate later carrying anything else? [/SIGN1]

Thus, every single Marian doctrine and dogma reinforces and highlights the divinity of Christ.

And, our passion in this regard is not necessarily focused on Mary’s virginity, but on the Truth, which must be protected and defended.

Its sad how you would see it differently. I would still hold Jesus as high as I do now even if he had brothers and sisters. The fact that she was a virgin when she had Jesus is a big enough deal to even see it as a miraculous thing. But like I said, if she ever did do things with her husband and have more kids, I wouldn’t see her as any less of what she is now or what she had accomplished, which is giving birth to Jesus while being a virgin. That is a huge deal, but you would see it differently if she had fulfilled Gods commands about being fruitful?

 

[PRmerger]

Its sad how you would see it differently. I would still hold Jesus as high as I do now even if he had brothers and sisters.

Perhaps you do.

However, try to explain this to someone who’s investigating Christianity. Perhaps a Muslim who does not believe in the divinity of Christ.

He looks at the “brothers” of the Lord and says to himself, “How could this Jesus be God! How “divine” could he be if the place that held Him Who Created the Word for 9 months now holds mere humans. It seems that he’s the same as those other humans that Mary carried in her womb. Otherwise, why would not her “space” be set apart?”

 

[BlueShadow123]

Perhaps you do.

However, try to explain this to someone who’s investigating Christianity. Perhaps a Muslim who does not believe in the divinity of Christ.

He looks at the “brothers” of the Lord and says to himself, “How could this Jesus be God! How “divine” could he be if the place that held Him Who Created the Word for 9 months now holds mere humans. It seems that he’s the same as those other humans that Mary carried in her womb. Otherwise, why would not her “space” be set apart?”

That is an assumption you have made, not a fact.

The fact that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus is a big enough deal. The fact that Jesus has God’s soul is a big enough deal. The fact that this is how God decided to do things is a big enough deal. All of God’s commandments are a big deal, so that means when he said be fruitful and multiply, if Mary had more kids, she is fulfilling God’s commandments, which would hold her up even higher for listening to him. Plus most people I know who converted over to Christianity were not worried or even thinking about Marys sex life. That is not what Christianity is mainly about. Maybe for you it is, but not for all.

 

[PRmerger]

But like I said, if she ever did do things with her husband and have more kids,** I wouldn’t see her** as any less of what she is now

Again, this is not really about how we “see her”, but how we see Jesus.

That is a huge deal, but you would see it differently if she had fulfilled Gods commands about being fruitful?

LOL! Methinks that giving birth to the Fruit of All Fruits satisfies the “command about being fruitful.”

 

[BlueShadow123]

Again, this is not really about how we “see her”, but how we see Jesus.

LOL! Methinks that giving birth to the Fruit of All Fruits satisfies the “command about being fruitful.” Exactly, you ‘think’. You made a good point, but once again, this is opinion, not fact.

The fact that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus is a big enough deal. The fact that Jesus has God’s soul is a big enough deal. The fact that this is how God decided to do things is a big enough deal. All of God’s commandments are a big deal, so that means when he said be fruitful and multiply, if Mary had more kids, she is fulfilling God’s commandments, which would hold her up even higher for listening to him. Plus most people I know who converted over to Christianity were not worried or even thinking about Marys sex life. That is not what Christianity is mainly about. Maybe for you it is, but not for all.

 

[PRmerger]

That is an assumption you have made, not a fact.

So? It’s still an appropriate illustration of why it’s important to profess the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

The fact that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus is a big enough deal.

With all due respect, BlueShadow, many of us are perfectly capable of handling more than one “big enough deal.”

Plus most people I know who converted over to Christianity were not worried or even thinking about Marys sex life.

That is an assumption you have made, not a fact.

That is not what Christianity is mainly about. Maybe for you it is, but not for all.

This is another assumption you have made, not a fact.



Incidentally, Christianity is “mainly about” Truth. And it was indeed true that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin.

 

[BlueShadow123]

So? It’s still an appropriate illustration of why it’s important to profess the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

With all due respect, BlueShadow, many of us are perfectly capable of handling more than one “big enough deal.”

That is an assumption you have made, not a fact.



This is another assumption you have made, not a fact.



Incidentally, Christianity is “mainly about” Truth. And it was indeed true that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin.

Alrighty I’m not getting into another debate with you. Obviously this is a great example that we do not know if she did or did not remain a virgin, which I have actually said alot of times. All we have are assumptions. Her sex life is really nobodies business. So I’m just going to let you think what you want, and I will think what I want.

 

[PRmerger]

Alrighty I’m not getting into another debate with you.

LOL! You lost all the previous times, eh? So it does indeed seem prudent for you to bow out now.

Obviously this is a great example that we do not know if she did or did not remain a virgin, which I have actually said alot of times.

We do indeed know.

You are like a person who’s saying, “I don’t really know how to get to Chicago. I just have a gut feeling that you go east.” and Catholics are those who say, “We know! We have the map!”

Her sex life is really nobodies business.

Indeed. But, again, this isn’t about Mary’s sex life of course.

 

[BlueShadow123]

LOL! You lost all the previous times, eh? So it does indeed seem prudent for you to bow out now.

We do indeed know.

You are like a person who’s saying, “I don’t really know how to get to Chicago. I just have a gut feeling that you go east.” and Catholics are those who say, “We know! We have the map!”

Indeed. But, again, this isn’t about Mary’s sex life of course.

No neither you nor I lost. The debate went another way with other people, until I got advice from someone to ignore you. So I’m dropping this now.

 

[PRmerger]

No neither you nor I lost. The debate went another way with other people, until I got advice from someone to ignore you. So I’m dropping this now.

You seem to have an inability to grasp analogies.

If I say this:

Christmas tree : ornaments :: Earlobe : earring

you seem to be thinking that I am saying that a Christmas tree is an earlobe. :whacky:

The relationship is by analogy only.

Thus, no one here is saying that your not knowing whether Mary was a PV is the same as being lost. It’s an ANALOGY.

Incidentally, you always threaten to ignore me, and then here you always come back for more.

 

[david_ruiz]

As with most Catholic things it’s not either/or but both/and.

 

[BlueShadow123]

You seem to have an inability to grasp analogies.

If I say this:

Christmas tree : ornaments :: Earlobe : earring

you seem to be thinking that I am saying that a Christmas tree is an earlobe. :whacky:

The relationship is by analogy only.

Thus, no one here is saying that your not knowing whether Mary was a PV is the same as being lost. It’s an ANALOGY.

Incidentally, you always threaten to ignore me, and then here you always come back for more.

I do not threaten to ignore you, I told you what happened last time. I thought you were pretty full of yourself and throwing the same arguments at me, that me along with multiple people were refuting. I don’t remember which thread this was in, until I got advice to put you on ignore because it was a waste of time. After that passed, I took you off because I felt no reason to keep you on and here we are again, but this time its different. I know what you believe, and you know what I believe, so I think I’m going to drop this, okay? You will get more people in this thread to debate with, but I’m not going to debate you this time. Nice talking with you.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not threaten to ignore you, I told you what happened last time. I thought you were pretty full of yourself

This is rude, BlueShadow. Ad hominems speak more about the author than the target.

 

[david_ruiz]

yes. i was a bit emphatic ,sorry ,but the point still holds ,which you did not address.Remember the early church had trouble balancing flesh and spirit and good and evil.Some thought jesus came not in the flesh ,because he is so holy .Others thought the two do not mix: flesh and spirit .Some even thought sex was flesh ,and marriage a distraction ,and started divorcing one another,thinking this was more spiritual ,not to have the cares of a spouse. May I charitably put out there for thought ,that some of the views given to Mary ,and her womb and Joseph etc have similar problems.If God so chose ,He could have been Mary’s 2nd or third born (with earlier prophecies changing to match ).Certainly we both agree that the virgin birth happened was so that man can not suggest “man” being the father.The miracle was not a miracle for miracles sake ,but so that we may believe that indeed he is the Son of God,and that he was fully man and fully God ,to satisfy God’s perfect justice.That it happened this way also because He is so holy and can not mix with sinful flesh is what we are debating still ,after 2000 years .Separation is a key word and underlying effect of Marion doctrine , from my point of view. She is not “amongst” women , she is blessed above women .Her marriage is above most .Her womb is separated from fleshly consecration, even though sanctified in marriage before God and being seen as “good” from the beginning of creation .The only separation I see is the separation we all have as human beings .We are each individually unique and different from one another ,as Jesus was separate from Mary in the womb ,for as you know a "fetus , is it’s own identity (blood ,etc.).He was fed by Mary but was a part distinct from Mary,hence Mary did not have to be “perfect”,howbeit perhaps holy ,as any mother should.

 

[david_ruiz]

This is O.K.,that one thinks , for did not Jesus ask others , including you and me , “What do you think ?” With one sweet question the Lord lifts us up to the heavenlies and says, “you are as a god, made in my image , and can have my mind, and spirit, and emotions .Yes, you are a sinner ,but I lift you up , and recognize your integrity , and value of your being, that I ask you , what do you think , apart and with what you hear from parents, and teachers, and rabbis, and priests, and cardinals, and popes, and prophets, and tradition ,and church and magisteriums ---- what do YOU think ?”. Is it not beautiful ? Alleluia !

 

[jlhargus]

This is a bit of a stretch ,and I am sure strange to any newcomer to this application/interpretation.It is quite good from your standpoint .It fits ,but by a stretch .As always ,the Lord would allow gems for the other side of the argument also.

Mary had no other natural children as this prophecy tells us. Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to THE OUTER GATE OF THE SANCTUARY, the one FACING EAST, and it was shut. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUGH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT. [The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate of heaven and no one else is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the OT Ark of the Covenant, so no one is to enter Mary the Ark of the NT. The Father called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant. Jn1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.

Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified

EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims

LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **

2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God

2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart

LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **

2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts

LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household

LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house

Hb10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, and NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THINGS, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

 

[jlhargus]

The scripture I shall give is quite blunt and straightforward ,enough for a youngster to catch .Psalm 69:8 “I am become a stranger to my brethren” (this could be kinsmen or cousins). However, it goes on to say, “and an alien unto my mother’s children”. I see the Lord going from a larger group , kinsmen /brethren, to a small very personal “my mothers children”-my brothers and sisters-very hurtful .This has perfect correlation to John 6:4, “A prophet is not without honor ,but in his own country, among his own kin, and in his own house” - See, the same progression from large to small and very personal .Feel the pain ,“for the son of man has no place to lay his head”. Not his countrymen , not even his household of brothers and sisters , and perhaps his mother ,who was still “pondering” . Not even Jesus’s own house gave Him honor at this stage…we could go on and on ,but perhaps we should get back to our thread topic .

JL: [Psalm69: I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.] Christ has become a stranger and an alien, to his mother=Israel’s children. Christ’s brothers the sons of Israel, from whom he is estranged as they rejected him making him an alien. Ps69:8 is a messianic prophecy that Israel will reject Christ. Jn1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Mary had no other natural children as this prophecy tells us. Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to THE OUTER GATE OF THE SANCTUARY, the one FACING EAST, and it was shut. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUGH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT. The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate of heaven and no one else is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the OT Ark of the Covenant, so no one is to enter Mary the Ark of the NT. The Fathers called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant.

 

[PRmerger]

I was merely saying from your point of view ,I can at least do one (corporal works),in that way I am in union with His flesh.

Yes, you are “in union with His flesh” when you do corporal works of mercy, in the same way that I am “in union with my husband” when I serve him. But I am not intimately joined to him when I do this. It is only through this magnificent One Flesh Union that we are able to achieve the sublime union that was meant for us. And meant for man and God, too.

 

[david_ruiz]

Yes ,apart (independent ) and with all the “(name removed by moderator)ut” we formulate an opinion.You rightly mention Christ’s involvement and guiding. In the end , it always comes to this (from Eden to now) ,and nothing trumps it our openness to personal divine revelation. Jesus did not say scripture told Peter He was the Messiah .He did not say it was tradition either .He did not say it was Judaic teaching/magisterium/church that told Him .However these all had there (name removed by moderator)ut.Jesus himself had (name removed by moderator)ut also .Yet Peter thought something , had a personal opinion ( which Jesus asked for) that was different from most people, who had similar (name removed by moderator)uts. Divine revelation was the difference , personal divine revelation. In the end, that is all anyone can say ,“I think” and all (name removed by moderator)ut can be guided by God himself. It is not scripture or church that does it finally, but God Himself ,personally to and with us.God expects us to use Him to discern everything we see and hear from scripture ,from the pulpit ,from our teachers ,from our magisterium.This is why St.Augustine ,who believed in the Church Universal ,and in teachers (Jerome),and in blessed scripture ,that He (God) teaches us .This is why both Jerome and Luther gave their opinions before each book in their translated bibles and said for the reader to formulate his own, independently.Why ,because it is God’s way and they believe what they had gleaned personally from God must and could be personally gleaned by others.Yes there would be differences,from little issues to big ,but not because God’s method of divine revelation , for His message is the same ,but because of different capacities of faith and good soil etc .Jesus had no problem with people having the same (name removed by moderator)ut ,yet coming up with different and many conclusions.He continued with the method of personal divine revelation.There will always be a remnant that was united in "opinion’/revelation… I know to Catholics we seem too independent , lacking authority and structure (even rebelling against such things), but we are to be dependent ultimately on Him. He makes us whole and then strangely makes us dependent upon one another, but only after we are complete in Him. Like in a marriage. The man is not 50% and woman the other 50% ,both uniting to making one .Both are 100% in themselves first , then they join, and strangely two become one…One may point to scripture and say it is here (truth ) .One may point to tradition and say it is here . Another may say “church” is where it is at .Perhaps , but it is vain if you have not been regenerated in spirit ,to commune with Him personally, and then “see” the Kingdom ,His Church ,His Scripture,His Traditions ,His shepherds etc…Thank-you for letting me ramble on.Alleluia